Question Re: Voter Access

#26
#26
therealUT said:
To obtain: 3 years civil service.

To maintain: Jury duty (at least once a year); taxes; and more.
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service guarantees citizenship!!!



would you like to know more??


screw philosophy, you've been reading too much Heinlein
 
#27
#27
therealUT said:
To obtain: 3 years civil service.

To maintain: Jury duty (at least once a year); taxes; and more.
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1. What kind of civil service? Do you take an aptitude test and get placed?
2. Where do the revenues to pay for the civil service come from?
3. Is there enough court time for everybody to serve jury duty once a year?
4. What would jury duty on that scale that do to small businesses?
5. What is the difference between these qualifications and other voting requirements like literacy laws?
 
#31
#31
therealUT said:
Briefly, they would be efficiently categorized as:

Justice;

Who's definition?

Reason

Again by who's defintion?

; Societal Good

Those setting the definition of #1 whould define this also.

; Individual Good;

By giving into the first three who will decide this?

Conscience/Moral Sense

What is legal, while it would factor in to individual good, one not constitute its own principle (at most, it would account for 1/5 of the decision).
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To which doctrine so you subscribe, Anarchist or Communist?
 
#32
#32
Lexvol said:
1. What kind of civil service? Do you take an aptitude test and get placed?
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Wide-ranging. From simple dictation at a court to military service. Some positions would definitely require aptitude tests.

Lexvol said:
2. Where do the revenues to pay for the civil service come from?
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Taxes and tariffs. Moreover, the expenses should, in theory, be much less than the current expenses our government accumulates in its bureaucracy.

Lexvol said:
3. Is there enough court time for everybody to serve jury duty once a year?
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I would do away with the 12-man jury system (that is simply remnants of the English system in which there were multiple judges) and replace it with "Socratic" juries. There would be plenty of court time.

Lexvol said:
4. What would jury duty on that scale that do to small businesses?
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Not sure; do not care. If one thought that their duties would keep them from operating their business, they could decide not to be a citizen and just be a resident.

Lexvol said:
5. What is the difference between these qualifications and other voting requirements like literacy laws?
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The requirements I point to would be based almost solely on effort, not merit (or talent/past opportunities, race, or wealth).
 
#35
#35
hog88 said:
To which doctrine so you subscribe, Anarchist or Communist?
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Are these my only options? I was under the impression that there were a multitude of competing ethical theories in this world and that Philosophical Anarchism and Communism were not ethical theories but political theories.

If you must know in what direction I lean, I would say that I am could be roughly categorized as a deontic rights rational egoist who is sympathetic to reasons internalism.
 
#38
#38
therealUT said:
One of the oft stated reasons I come across from those who want voter photo ID laws is that a vote cast from an illegal immigrant cancels out a vote from a citizen.

My question is, as an American citizen what minimum "gates" have you passed through that make you feel entitled to vote while barring an illegal immigrant from voting?
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We all need all kinds of papers for all kinds of things. Drawing the line at polls is absurd.

I have my driver's license and my proof if insurance with me when I drive.

I take my driver's license, my proof of insurance, and my voter id card with me when I drive to go vote.

I take my kids shot records to the school when they ask.
 
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#39
#39
therealUT said:
Wide-ranging. From simple dictation at a court to military service. Some positions would definitely require aptitude tests.



Taxes and tariffs. Moreover, the expenses should, in theory, be much less than the current expenses our government accumulates in its bureaucracy.



I would do away with the 12-man jury system (that is simply remnants of the English system in which there were multiple judges) and replace it with "Socratic" juries. There would be plenty of court time.



Not sure; do not care. If one thought that their duties would keep them from operating their business, they could decide not to be a citizen and just be a resident.



The requirements I point to would be based almost solely on effort, not merit (or talent/past opportunities, race, or wealth).
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Too many holes.

How long to you think it would take for the citizen vs. resident unrest to ensue?

The govt would eventually end up assigning the labor, and service would become political sooner rather than later. It would be an appointment rather than a voluntary action.

The revenues for civil service would end up in the hands of the "appointers", and the system would look similar to unions and labor now.
 
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#40
#40
therealUT said:
They would be a citizen after their civil service; thus, they would not need an ID to sign up for civil service.
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how does an individual citizen prove that they're a citizen?

you're dodging the question of ID because you know your utopia is flawed and inherently anti-freedom
 
#41
#41
therealUT said:
There are plenty of illegal immigrants that pay taxes; and, there are plenty of Citizens that do not.
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My sticking point is the fact that they are illegal immigrants and not citizens.....

is it your belief that they should be allowed to vote?
 
#42
#42
Lexvol said:
Too many holes.

How long to you think it would take for the citizen vs. resident unrest to ensue?

The govt would eventually end up assigning the labor, and service would become political sooner rather than later. It would be an appointment rather than a voluntary action.

The revenues for civil service would end up in the hands of the "appointers", and the system would look similar to unions and labor now.
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There are not as many "holes" as you seem to think. However, it is also not a simple idea; it is highly complex.
 
#43
#43
therealUT said:
Are these my only options? I was under the impression that there were a multitude of competing ethical theories in this world and that Philosophical Anarchism and Communism were not ethical theories but political theories.

If you must know in what direction I lean, I would say that I am could be roughly categorized as a deontic rights rational egoist who is sympathetic to reasons internalism.
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In layman's terms does this translate to pole smoker?.... because I have no idea what you're talking about
 
#44
#44
therealUT said:
They would be a citizen after their civil service; thus, they would not need an ID to sign up for civil service.
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How would they prove they are a citizen after their service?

Take their word for it?
 
#45
#45
MG1968 said:
how does an individual citizen prove that they're a citizen?

you're dodging the question of ID because you know your utopia is flawed and inherently anti-freedom
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An individual Citizen would certainly be given papers and identification upon completion of their service. Not sure how that in anyway affects the main thrust of the question here: what has the average citizen in the US done to secure the privilege of voting that many illegal immigrants do not do? If the answer is nothing other than, "they were born in the US", then the whole system is ridiculously xenophobic.

How is my "utopia...inherently anti-freedom"? Do you honestly think that voting is either a necessary or sufficient condition of freedom? It is not.
 
#46
#46
therealUT said:
There are not as many "holes" as you seem to think. However, it is also not a simple idea; it is highly complex.
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Thanks, UT.

It is very simple. It doesn't account for human nature. Appointments would be politicized in short order. If you grew up next to the appointer, you get the better job....the civil servant working cleaning the street sees you in the air conditioned office....and wonders what you did to get your job.
 
#47
#47
therealUT said:
An individual Citizen would certainly be given papers and identification upon completion of their service. Not sure how that in anyway affects the main thrust of the question here: what has the average citizen in the US done to secure the privilege of voting that many illegal immigrants do not do? If the answer is nothing other than, "they were born in the US", then the whole system is ridiculously xenophobic.

How is my "utopia...inherently anti-freedom"? Do you honestly think that voting is either a necessary or sufficient condition of freedom? It is not.
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so is voting the only difference between a citizen and a resident in your utopia? Will citizens get tax breaks? Will residents be allowed to own property?
 
#48
#48
Lexvol said:
Thanks, UT.

It is very simple. It doesn't account for human nature. Appointments would be politicized in short order. If you grew up next to the appointer, you get the better job....the civil servant working cleaning the street sees you in the air conditioned office....and wonders what you did to get your job.
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You are stuck on the fact that you think the 3 year civil service requirement would be politicized? That is your critique?

There is a financial incentive for the citizens to attract more individuals to citizenship (larger income tax pool); thus, there is an incentive to make the requirements attractive.

There are many who have weighed in on some parts of the system who actually ask the question, "Why would anyone opt for citizenship?" and respond along the lines of, "I would take the freedom". Thus, making it attractive would play a big role. Anything that looked like preferential treatment, on its face, would work against the group of citizens.
 
#49
#49
MG1968 said:
so is voting the only difference between a citizen and a resident in your utopia? Will citizens get tax breaks? Will residents be allowed to own property?
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You're debating a master 'bater.....he'll deflect and then deal another vague point for discussion
 
#50
#50
therealUT said:
An individual Citizen would certainly be given papers and identification upon completion of their service. Not sure how that in anyway affects the main thrust of the question here: what has the average citizen in the US done to secure the privilege of voting that many illegal immigrants do not do? If the answer is nothing other than, "they were born in the US", then the whole system is ridiculously xenophobic.

How is my "utopia...inherently anti-freedom"? Do you honestly think that voting is either a necessary or sufficient condition of freedom? It is not.
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I'm not opposed to doing away with 100% "birth right" citizenship.

No one should be allowed cistizenship because moma slipped accross the border to have her spawn. A person born to a US citizen should be a citizen at birth.

Your whole idea of earned citizenship does not (along with most of your ideas) do not take into account human nature. There are wayto many holes for corruption that a non-citizen could never overcome.
 
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