Question Re: Voter Access

#51
#51
therealUT said:
You are stuck on the fact that you think the 3 year civil service requirement would be politicized? That is your critique?

There is a financial incentive for the citizens to attract more individuals to citizenship (larger income tax pool); thus, there is an incentive to make the requirements attractive.

There are many who have weighed in on some parts of the system who actually ask the question, "Why would anyone opt for citizenship?" and respond along the lines of, "I would take the freedom". Thus, making it attractive would play a big role. Anything that looked like preferential treatment, on its face, would work against the group of citizens.
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Absolutely. There is no way to fairly administrate such a system...even for those that opt in for all the "benefits".
 
#52
#52
therealUT said:
You are stuck on the fact that you think the 3 year civil service requirement would be politicized? That is your critique?

There is a financial incentive for the citizens to attract more individuals to citizenship (larger income tax pool); thus, there is an incentive to make the requirements attractive.

There are many who have weighed in on some parts of the system who actually ask the question, "Why would anyone opt for citizenship?" and respond along the lines of, "I would take the freedom". Thus, making it attractive would play a big role. Anything that looked like preferential treatment, on its face, would work against the group of citizens.
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Sounds like typical liberal commy trash to me....perhaps you'd be a better fit somewhere in europe
 
#53
#53
MG1968 said:
so is voting the only difference between a citizen and a resident in your utopia? Will citizens get tax breaks? Will residents be allowed to own property?
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Residents live in compounds....it is highly complex MG.
 
#54
#54
therealUT said:
You are stuck on the fact that you think the 3 year civil service requirement would be politicized? That is your critique?

There is a financial incentive for the citizens to attract more individuals to citizenship (larger income tax pool); thus, there is an incentive to make the requirements attractive.


There are many who have weighed in on some parts of the system who actually ask the question, "Why would anyone opt for citizenship?" and respond along the lines of, "I would take the freedom". Thus, making it attractive would play a big role. Anything that looked like preferential treatment, on its face, would work against the group of citizens.
Click to expand...

Called bribes for prime civil service positions.
 
#55
#55
Lexvol said:
Absolutely. There is no way to fairly administrate such a system...even for those that opt in for all the "benefits".
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Is your critique simply that there is no way to ensure that it is absolutely fair? If that is the case, might as well discredit and throw out every political system ever put in to practice.

Interesting questions consist of:
- In theory, is this more fair than other systems?
- In theory, are there mechanism that will motivate compliance?
- In theory, will one cheater ruin the system (the problem of Marxism)?
- If so, how does one deal with/ensure there are no cheaters?
 
#56
#56
MG1968 said:
so is voting the only difference between a citizen and a resident in your utopia? Will citizens get tax breaks? Will residents be allowed to own property?
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There is an entire thread devoted to the idea. Feel free to check it out, read it, and ask questions.

Citizenship and Obligation
 
#60
#60
therealUT said:
Is your critique simply that there is no way to ensure that it is absolutely fair? If that is the case, might as well discredit and throw out every political system ever put in to practice.

Interesting questions consist of:
- In theory, is this more fair than other systems?
- In theory, are there mechanism that will motivate compliance?
- In theory, will one cheater ruin the system (the problem of Marxism)?
- If so, how does one deal with/ensure there are no cheaters?
Click to expand...

My critique is that civil service is the backbone of the theory, and that it would be impossible to fairly administer the civil service placements.

Nature doesn't allow for absolute fairness.
The disparity of the "nature" of the civil service is too much to overcome.
Motivating mechanisms would depend on the job that you are stuck with for three years.
The system is not ruined from within, but from without. The segregated "coexisting" society would implode.
 
#61
#61
MG1968 said:
real answers or vague philosophical banalities?
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Check it out and see for yourself. Am I your mother? Or, can you do things on your own?

It is written and accessible to you. If you are interested, go to it. If not, quit your nagging.
 
#62
#62
Lexvol said:
My critique is that civil service is the backbone of the theory, and that it would be impossible to fairly administer the civil service placements.
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Explain why it would be impossible to administer the civil service placements at a sufficiently fair level?

What you are saying certainly is not a self-evident truth; thus, there are reasons for drawing your conclusion. Provide the reasons.
 
#63
#63
therealUT said:
Check it out and see for yourself. Am I your mother? Or, can you do things on your own?

It is written and accessible to you. If you are interested, go to it. If not, quit your nagging.
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as a veteran, and thus a citizen, am I not entitled to have my questions answered in a timely fashion? Why should I have to wade through a thread full of philosophical nonsense when the question I asked should have been easy for you to answer here?

I'll ask it again, do Citizens get tax breaks and are residents allowed to own property.
 
#64
#64
Lexvol said:
My critique is that civil service is the backbone of the theory, and that it would be impossible to fairly administer the civil service placements.

Nature doesn't allow for absolute fairness.
The disparity of the "nature" of the civil service is too much to overcome.
Motivating mechanisms would depend on the job that you are stuck with for three years.
The system is not ruined from within, but from without. The segregated "coexisting" society would implode.
Click to expand...

Nature dosen't fit into the unicorns and fairies of the philosophical world...
 
#66
#66
MG1968 said:
as a veteran, and thus a citizen, am I not entitled to have my questions answered in a timely fashion? Why should I have to wade through a thread full of philosophical nonsense when the question I asked should have been easy for you to answer here?

I'll ask it again, do Citizens get tax breaks and are residents allowed to own property.
Click to expand...

I am not your mother and I will not nurture you.
 
#67
#67
MG1968 said:
as a veteran, and thus a citizen, am I not entitled to have my questions answered in a timely fashion? Why should I have to wade through a thread full of philosophical nonsense when the question I asked should have been easy for you to answer here?

I'll ask it again, do Citizens get tax breaks and are residents allowed to own property.
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He said:

"There is nothing forced. One has the choice not to be a citizen and still retain their rights to life, liberty, and property. If one wants extra benefits, one pays in and accepts certain conditions."

He also said:


- "Voting: Citizens would be offered the privilege of voting and of running for office. Non-citizens would have no vote; however, the only legislation that would bind on non-citizens would be that regarding infractions on others rights to life, liberty, and/or property. The legislature could pass any laws with respect to citizens (e.g., no drugs, no booze, etc.)"

So yes non-citizens could own property but also would not be restricted to any law unless it afftected life, liberty or property. In other words non-citizens would be free to do almost whatever they dang well please and not pay taxes.

Almost like illegals now....
 
#69
#69
therealUT said:
Aside from the fact that any substantial benefits (quality of life healthcare, decent education, etc.) of the state would not be provided to non-citizens.
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They would be on the free market system, correct?

Since they do not have to pay taxes, abide by any laws (outside of theft, rape, murder, assault) they would be free to earn at whatever level they can without restriction.
 
#70
#70
hog88 said:
They would be on the free market system, correct?

Since they do not have to pay taxes, abide by any laws (outside of theft, rape, murder, assault) they would be free to earn at whatever level they can without restriction.
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Of course they would.
 
#73
#73
therealUT said:
Free market; they would be able to earn whatever they wanted to earn.
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Would be a small citizenship pool.

All I get is regulation, forced service, no tolls on the road, a gov't 401k and gov't healtcare. Sounds great, we all know how well the gov't runs social programs.
 
#74
#74
hog88 said:
Would be a small citizenship pool.

All I get is regulation, forced service, no tolls on the road, a gov't 401k and gov't healtcare. Sounds great, we all know how well the gov't runs social programs.
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It would be a small citizenship pool. However, both the wealthy and corporations have demonstrated over the course of history that being aligned with a government (not nationalizing their industry; there is a difference) is one of the surest ways to ensure the perpetuation and permanence of their wealth, over generations. The few citizens definitely have the potential to provide more than enough money in order to field defensive forces and, moreover, the benefits they would provide themselves from their shared pool have the potential to look very lucrative to the middle class, who just might want to join in order to send their kids to better schools for cheaper.

While what we consider as governments have a poor record providing social services, there are examples of large government-type organizations, with voluntary membership, that have great records in providing services, such as education and healthcare (e.g., the Catholic Church).
 
#75
#75
you grouse over the notion of a $10 fee for a photo ID and that it's a "poll tax" but with a straight face advocate 3 years of public service, after which documentation is provided proving citizenship and eligibility to vote.

I will agree that many people who vote are ill-informed and probably have no business voting, but people should be free to be ignorant.
 
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