questioning faith

[VolsSportsFan]

Think about the story of job. He endured trials for I think around 40 years.. he spent 40 years in the wilderness before God blessed him. He questioned god on why he was doing the things that he did. In the end god showed job that he (God) is almighty and controls ALL things... Good or evil.

He allows Satan to do his evil and demonic work here on Earth.. because let's face it . We humans are weak to temptation. We all fall, and that is where repentance comes into play.

Kind of sounds like he's an a-hole.

 

[Septic]

Think about the story of job. He endured trials for I think around 40 years.. he spent 40 years in the wilderness before God blessed him. He questioned god on why he was doing the things that he did. In the end god showed job that he (God) is almighty and controls ALL things... Good or evil.

He allows Satan to do his evil and demonic work here on Earth.. because let's face it . We humans are weak to temptation. We all fall, and that is where repentance comes into play.

Who wouldn't question 40 years of bullsht? I'd guess Job would have had a hard time telling the difference between "satan" and "god" in a blind taste test.

You rationalization of why your god does this is peculiar at best. It does it because "we're weak to temptation?" Outside of childhood indoctrination, I honestly cannot wrap my head around how people just blindly accept these explanations.

 

[Roustabout]

Who wouldn't question 40 years of bullsht? I'd guess Job would have had a hard time telling the difference between "satan" and "god" in a blind taste test.

You rationalization of why your god does this is peculiar at best. It does it because "we're weak to temptation?" Outside of childhood indoctrination, I honestly cannot wrap my head around how people just blindly accept these explanations.

Who cares? Either Jesus rose from the dead or He didn't. Whether Job was real or fictitious doesn't matter one iota. If He did, then every jot and tittle must be viewed through that lens.

 

[pismonque]

I like jots and tittles.



Don't even know why.

 

[Wafflestomper]

Think about the story of job. He endured trials for I think around 40 years.. he spent 40 years in the wilderness before God blessed him. He questioned god on why he was doing the things that he did. In the end god showed job that he (God) is almighty and controls ALL things... Good or evil.

He allows Satan to do his evil and demonic work here on Earth.. because let's face it . We humans are weak to temptation. We all fall, and that is where repentance comes into play.

God and Satan go in on a low-stakes bet that involves torturing Job and killing his family, all so God gets to say "see, I told you so" at the end. But it's okay because Job gets a new family and new stuff.

And some people think you can't have morals without religion...

 

[Septic]

God and Satan go in on a low-stakes bet that involves torturing Job and killing his family, all so God gets to say "see, I told you so" at the end. But it's okay because Job gets a new family and new stuff.

And some people think you can't have morals without religion...

jots and tittles.

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

If true, it makes healing completely arbitrary.

Can't necessarily argue that but that would also make God answering any prayers arbitrary wouldn't it?

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

Think about the story of job. He endured trials for I think around 40 years.. he spent 40 years in the wilderness before God blessed him. He questioned god on why he was doing the things that he did. In the end god showed job that he (God) is almighty and controls ALL things... Good or evil.

He allows Satan to do his evil and demonic work here on Earth.. because let's face it . We humans are weak to temptation. We all fall, and that is where repentance comes into play.

I'm going to play devils advocate here.

If God is truly all powerful, all knowing and exist everywhere, wouldn't that make it his fault in the end?

For instance, God presents a person with a 'trial' and whatever that trial is causes them to lose faith and turn away from God. Wouldn't that be Gods fault because he allowed it to happen?

 

[Septic]

I'm going to play devils advocate here.

If God is truly all powerful, all knowing and exist everywhere, wouldn't that make it his fault in the end?

For instance, God presents a person with a 'trial' and whatever that trial is causes them to lose faith and turn away from God. Wouldn't that be Gods fault because he allowed it to happen?

I think this is where the "free will" argument comes into play, which isn't particularly convincing if the god is truly omniscient (as you stated).

 

[zidanefan]

Truth....John 16:33

... And if you're not questioning faith from time to time, I'd say you're abnormal.

Great verse. Hopeful verse. Scripture also calls us "to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Paul is speaking to believers there - those whose hearts have been changed by God through genuine saving faith in Christ. That's an important point.

Some great answers here. I thank each of you. I really do. I am a believer. I am. I just have questions I guess I'll never really know the answer to. I guess all i can try to do is be a good person and help people the best I can. Except Gator fans. They can kiss my butt.

OP, I'd be interested to have a conversation with you sometime, if you're interested. I've got some personal experience with answered prayer that may help. If you'd like to do that, post a reply and I'll post an email address or phone number, or a moderator can probably put us in touch with one another. If not, no hard feelings, no worries. I'll pray for you either way.

 

[n_huffhines]

Think about the story of job. He endured trials for I think around 40 years.. he spent 40 years in the wilderness before God blessed him. He questioned god on why he was doing the things that he did. In the end god showed job that he (God) is almighty and controls ALL things... Good or evil.

He allows Satan to do his evil and demonic work here on Earth.. because let's face it . We humans are weak to temptation. We all fall, and that is where repentance comes into play.

Non sequitur. Our imperfection does not explain why an all-powerful God would allow Satan to ruin Job's life. It seems all of this was a trial of Job's faith, but to what end? Job had faith to start with.

There are some Bible stories (like Daniel and the Lion's den) where I am like, "OK, if God is real, this seems legit and I get it the lesson and the value of this story." and then there are stories like Job where I think, "this was clearly made up by the clergy to manipulate believers".

 

[zidanefan]

Non sequitur. Our imperfection does not explain why an all-powerful God would allow Satan to ruin Job's life. It seems all of this was a trial of Job's faith, but to what end? Job had faith to start with.

There are some Bible stories (like Daniel and the Lion's den) where I am like, "OK, if God is real, this seems legit and I get it the lesson and the value of this story." and then there are stories like Job where I think, "this was clearly made up by the clergy to manipulate believers".

One chief problem plaguing humanity is the notion that the actions of a God who is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, who literally created everything in the universe, who has no beginning and no end must in some way make logical sense to the finite beings He has created, and that if those ways do not make sense to the finite beings, then the finite beings will reject them on the basis of their inability to understand. That strikes me as the height of arrogance. And, that's not a jab at you. I think it's a natural response - but, I think if we carry out the line of thinking of the nature of God to its natural and logical conclusion, we arrive at something so much bigger than ourselves that it is beyond comprehension. If we arrive there, we have to question our inclination to question God on the basis of our limited intellect.

Of course, my statement presupposes a lot. There is a big "if" - you stated it above: "If God is real..." And if there is a real God, who is all of what I stated above, He is beyond our comprehension. There is also a presupposition here about the inerrancy of Scripture. That's a problem for many. This is a highly nuanced discussion to say the least.

One last thing: God did not allow Satan to ruin Job's life. That's an important point. This is a theme of Scripture: Joseph's statement that what was intended for evil, God worked for good (Gen. 50:20), and in that instance for the good of many, not just for Joseph. Romans 8:28 says that all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. The book of Job gives hope to many. If God's perspective is an eternal one, then the trials Job and Joseph experienced (and Joesph's story is an intense study in trials) would impact the world and countless believers far beyond the experience of those trials. That gives me a tremendous amount of hope in the God I serve.

 

[n_huffhines]

I don't think the desire to understand before accepting an idea that you model your life around is the "height of arrogance".

 

[VolsSportsFan]

I don't think the desire to understand before accepting an idea that you model your life around is the "height of arrogance".

It's not even close to arrogant; and it's something that seems to be a great idea until we start talking about deities.

 

[zidanefan]

I don't think the desire to understand before accepting an idea that you model your life around is the "height of arrogance".

It depends upon where you land with the "Does God really exist?" question. If I'm "modeling my life" around a man-made philosophy, then agreed. If after I've arrived at the conclusion that God exists, I then decide that unless I am capable of comprehending Him, His ways, His Word and how all of this fits into my worldview before I'm willing to accept them, that is absolutely arrogant.

 

[n_huffhines]

It depends upon where you land with the "Does God really exist?" question. If I'm "modeling my life" around a man-made philosophy, then agreed. If after I've arrived at the conclusion that God exists, I then decide that unless I am capable of comprehending Him, His ways, His Word and how all of this fits into my worldview before I'm willing to accept them, that is absolutely arrogant.

But even if I conclude that God exists, I can still view the Bible and its teachings as man-made philosophy. I need to be convinced that it is a representation of God and what Christians seem to be telling me is that the Bible won't necessarily make sense to you, but just blindly accept it anyway, otherwise you are arrogant.

It's a book written for men intended to help us understand God. We are supposed to be able to comprehend God through it.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

It depends upon where you land with the "Does God really exist?" question. If I'm "modeling my life" around a man-made philosophy, then agreed. If after I've arrived at the conclusion that God exists, I then decide that unless I am capable of comprehending Him, His ways, His Word and how all of this fits into my worldview before I'm willing to accept them, that is absolutely arrogant.

In your mutli-level deep levels of presupposition, I guess that would be arrogance.

 

[Wafflestomper]

One chief problem plaguing humanity is the notion that the actions of a God who is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, who literally created everything in the universe, who has no beginning and no end must in some way make logical sense to the finite beings He has created, and that if those ways do not make sense to the finite beings, then the finite beings will reject them on the basis of their inability to understand. That strikes me as the height of arrogance. And, that's not a jab at you. I think it's a natural response - but, I think if we carry out the line of thinking of the nature of God to its natural and logical conclusion, we arrive at something so much bigger than ourselves that it is beyond comprehension. If we arrive there, we have to question our inclination to question God on the basis of our limited intellect.

Why couldn't God create beings who understand him? Or at least provide good evidence for his existence? He's planning on torturing us for an eternity for not believing in him, so doesn't that make him malevolent?

One last thing: God did not allow Satan to ruin Job's life. That's an important point. This is a theme of Scripture: Joseph's statement that what was intended for evil, God worked for good (Gen. 50:20), and in that instance for the good of many, not just for Joseph. Romans 8:28 says that all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. The book of Job gives hope to many. If God's perspective is an eternal one, then the trials Job and Joseph experienced (and Joesph's story is an intense study in trials) would impact the world and countless believers far beyond the experience of those trials. That gives me a tremendous amount of hope in the God I serve.

But God did allow Satan to torture Job and kill his children and servants. It's really an incoherent story if you believe in an "omni-" God, as you seem to. Does Satan not know that God knows everything? God says at the beginning of the story that Job is "blameless and upright;" shouldn't that be good enough? Why would Satan be allowed to do that when God already knows what is going to happen?

 

[pismonque]

Why couldn't God create beings who understand him? Or at least provide good evidence for his existence? He's planning on torturing us for an eternity for not believing in him, so doesn't that make him malevolent?

But God did allow Satan to torture Job and kill his children and servants. It's really an incoherent story if you believe in an "omni-" God, as you seem to. Does Satan not know that God knows everything? God says at the beginning of the story that Job is "blameless and upright;" shouldn't that be good enough? Why would Satan be allowed to do that when God already knows what is going to happen?

Fahr God!

 

[Roustabout]

Can't necessarily argue that but that would also make God answering any prayers arbitrary wouldn't it?

Not necessarily.
I don't see prayer as trying to persuade God. God isn't temporal and is unchanging, so if humans can change His mind then He is contingent. Prayer is about aligning our minds to God's will. God doesn't say no. Either we pray according to His will or we don't.

 

[apevol]

Not necessarily.
I don't see prayer as trying to persuade God. God isn't temporal and is unchanging, so if humans can change His mind then He is contingent. Prayer is about aligning our minds to God's will. God doesn't say no. Either we pray according to His will or we don't.

Took me a few minutes to get what you were saying. Or at least I think I get it.

Youre saying prayer isnt about asking for something we want, but rather seeking guidance for what we should do?

 

[Slydell]

I'll have to read through this thread tomorrow or so to see what's going on.

 

[UTK]

So he doesn't care what happens to us on Earth? How is allowing a child to endure extreme suffering a good lesson to others?

I look at it like this.

God exist and is a powerful force that works miracles in this world. But I don't think God "controls all". I don't think people have predetermined destinies. You control your own destiny to the best of your abilities. Maybe a kid getting cancer is the act of an evil force in this world and not God. Maybe there needs to be a balance of evil and good, ying and yang ect ect. All I know is, be the best person you can be through adversity and tough times and you will be rewarded at some point.

 

[roosterjbh]

I look at it like this.

God exist and is a powerful force that works miracles in this world. But I don't think God "controls all". I don't think people have predetermined destinies. You control your own destiny to the best of your abilities. Maybe a kid getting cancer is the act of an evil force in this world and not God. Maybe there needs to be a balance of evil and good, ying and yang ect ect. All I know is, be the best person you can be through adversity and tough times and you will be rewarded at some point.

Yeesh

 

[ClearwaterVol]

It depends upon where you land with the "Does God really exist?" question. If I'm "modeling my life" around a man-made philosophy, then agreed. If after I've arrived at the conclusion that God exists, I then decide that unless I am capable of comprehending Him, His ways, His Word and how all of this fits into my worldview before I'm willing to accept them, that is absolutely arrogant.

It's this line of thinking that I take umbrage with. If you question God's plan then the most frequent response is who are you to understand. It seems like a load of crap designed to keep people from seeking the truth.