R Debate

#127
#127
milohimself said:
I think you think there's some line buried in the constitution about protecting the free market.
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Well, there shouldn't have to be. The constitution isn't worded to restrict government, it's worded to enable them. Amendment X. We look at the constitution like it's supposed to delineate what government can't do, but in reality we are supposed to assume they can't do anything unless explicitly authorized.

The constitution is one big joke. Rule of law has been diminishing over time. Madison is the father of the constitution and when he was president he vetoed interstate highway systems, claiming that they were a great idea, but unconstitutional. Look how far we've come. Now we somehow use the interstate commerce clause to regulate farmers who grow crops solely for their family. It's ridiculous.
 
#128
#128
milohimself said:
I think you think there's some line buried in the constitution about protecting the free market.
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Yeah, Basically. At least for government to stay out of it.

The truth is that the Constitution grants Congress 17 specific (or "delegated") powers. And it commands in the Ninth and 10th Amendments that the powers not articulated and thus not delegated by the Constitution to Congress be reserved to the states and the people.

What's more, Congress can only use its delegated powers to legislate for the general welfare, meaning it cannot spend tax dollars on individuals or selected entities, but only for all of us. That is, it must spend in such a manner -- a post office, a military installation, a courthouse, for example -- that directly enhances everyone's welfare within the 17 delegated areas of congressional authority.

And Congress cannot deny the equal protection of the laws. Thus, it must treat similarly situated persons or entities in a similar manner. It cannot write laws that favor its political friends and burden its political enemies.

There is no power in the Constitution for the federal government to enter the marketplace since, when it does, it will favor itself over its competition. The Contracts Clause (the states cannot interfere with private contracts, like mortgages), the Takings Clause (no government can take away property, like real estate or shares of stock, without paying a fair market value for it and putting it to a public use), and the Due Process Clause (no government can take away a right or obligation, like collecting or paying a debt, or enforcing a contract, without a fair trial) together mandate a free market, regulated only to keep it fair and competitive.

It is clear that the Framers wrote a Constitution as a result of which contracts would be enforced, risk would be real, choices would be free and have consequences, and private property would be sacrosanct.

The $700 billion bailout of large banks that Congress recently enacted runs afoul of virtually all these constitutional principles. It directly benefits a few, not everyone. We already know that the favored banks that received cash from taxpayers have used it to retire their own debt. It is private welfare. It violates the principle of equal protection: Why help Bank of America and not Lehman Brothers? It permits federal ownership of assets or debt that puts the government at odds with others in the free market. It permits the government to tilt the playing field to favor its patrons (like J.P. Morgan Chase, in which it has invested taxpayer dollars) and to disfavor those who compete with its patrons (like the perfectly lawful hedge funds which will not have the taxpayers relieve their debts).
 
#129
#129
Agreed, especially re: the banks.

The general welfare bit is something to keep in mind, as well. And tax dollars spent should benefit all of us. But you need to be careful about how you draw that line, there's not only one way to do so.
 
#130
#130
nbakerld said:
Yeah and fighting an endless, dangerous, costly war to keep it out of an entire country when we can't even keep it out of prisons is wise. :good!:
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Good point. Still not a fan of legalization of the hard core stuff, but perhaps since eradication is never going to work, tax it and regulate it. Tough issue.
 
#131
#131
volfanjustin said:
Ha. sure you would. I will give you kudos for admitting you are a dem while others are still in the closet
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So anyone that doesn't take the BS that BOTH parties spew at face value is automatically a closeted Dem? Got ya. Time to file you under the 'not worth wasting effort on' posters. Keep living in your myopic world and being a lemming to a political machine. You are dead to me now. :hi:
 
#133
#133
nbakerld said:
I'm not really a Republican (I really only like the Pauls and Chris Christie), and I'm definitely not going to support the inventor of Obamacare (Romney).

It's kind of funny cause here in Utah people complain that Romney can't win because "the Bible belt won't support a Mormon", but Romney won 98% of the vote here in the primaries. That tells me there are a whole hell of a lot of Mormons who voted for him just because of his faith. I can shut them up pretty quick with his health care plan in Mass.
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I respect that. I may not agree 100%, but Who agrees with 100% of anything?
 
#134
#134
Cartervol said:
What do you think will happen when these companies realize Obamacare is cheaper than anything they can purchase from a outside source? I'll tell you what will happen those outside sources will dry up and they'll have control of all of it. They'll get squeezed out one by one and then they'll dictate to you what you can and cannot get.
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I am not a huge proponent of government run health care per se.BUT, I do have a problem with an insurance company financially benefitting off of someone's health. It is a recipe for corruption when a company can control their profits with the ability to deny care, that one has paid for services, to improve profits. I have had too many issues with insurance over legit claims. I am not speaking theoretically here. Most people are aware of my health situation, and I have lived an insurance nightmare. I am just too stubborn to let them get away with it. Before someone comments, yes I do work everyday. I am not someone who milks disability even though I could retire medically in a heartbeat. I value work, and what i receive from it. I am not going further because most know my story, and I will not bore them with the details....AGAIN. I have no answers. One possibility is for healthcare to be provided in a not-for-profit industry, a break even affair? If I had answers, I'd be rich and wouldn't have to worry.:hi::peace2:
 
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#135
#135
or, you could not accept the plan offered by your employer and buy insurance on your own.

I have my doubts that employers are "profiting off of our health care", especially when some employers pay more than 70% of the premium amount.
 
#136
#136
MG1968 said:
or, you could not accept the plan offered by your employer and buy insurance on your own.

I have my doubts that employers are "profiting off of our health care", especially when some employers pay more than 70% of the premium amount.
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I think he may have confused his employer and insurance firms.
 
#137
#137
MG1968 said:
or, you could not accept the plan offered by your employer and buy insurance on your own.

I have my doubts that employers are "profiting off of our health care", especially when some employers pay more than 70% of the premium amount.
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Not employers. Insurance companies. Very few can afford premiums not based on a group plan. OR we could just throw all sick people like me in the streets to fend for ourselves medically. After all, even though I work in spite of my disease instead of milking taxpayers for disability, my diseased carcass contributes nothing to society.


I clarified my previous post.
 
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#138
#138
JayVols said:
Not employers. Insurance companies. Very few can afford premiums not based on a group plan. OR we could just throw all sick people like me in the streets to fend for ourselves medically. After all, even though I work in spite of my disease instead of milking taxpayers for disability, my diseased carcass contributes nothing to society.


I clarified my post.
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why is that line always used in these arguments? It's a common democrat talking point when referring to the market based reforms of the GOP, but I think it's more of a rhetorical device than anything based in fact.
 
#139
#139
JayVols said:
Not employers. Insurance companies. Very few can afford premiums not based on a group plan. OR we could just throw all sick people like me in the streets to fend for ourselves medically. After all, even though I work in spite of my disease instead of milking taxpayers for disability, my diseased carcass contributes nothing to society.


I clarified my previous post.
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so your complaint is that you have to work? not sure i'm following you.
 
#140
#140
MG1968 said:
why is that line always used in these arguments? It's a common democrat talking point when referring to the market based reforms of the GOP, but I think it's more of a rhetorical device than anything based in fact.
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What are you advocating then? I am not trying to use a talking point. That's been my experience. How can a company deny medically valid services that one has paid to receive coverage? Is that not breech of contract? Does the insurance companies not take a risk by entering the industry that they may lose money on an individual? Is that not the nature of the free market? Why is the line 'just buy insurance on your own' always used by the right? Surely you don't think our healthcare system is perfect.

I am a puppet to no party, Dem or Rep.
 
#141
#141
droski said:
so your complaint is that you have to work? not sure i'm following you.
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No. I love working. I want to work and support myself and my family on my own. My point was that it would be easier to take disability and Medicare rather than fight the insurance companies to pay for treatments that I have paid them to cover.
 
#142
#142
JayVols said:
What are you advocating then? I am not trying to use a talking point. That's been my experience. How can a company deny medically valid services that one has paid to receive coverage? Is that not breech of contract? Does the insurance companies not take a risk by entering the industry that they may lose money on an individual? Is that not the nature of the free market? Why is the line 'just buy insurance on your own' always used by the right? Surely you don't think our healthcare system is perfect.

I am a puppet to no party, Dem or Rep.
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of course I don't think it's perfect and where is it written that an insurance company must pay for everything?

If my insurance doesn't cover bariatric surgery and I go out and have my stomach stapled, do I have a right to try to force the insurance company to pay for it? No, I don't. I understand that insurance rules and regulations are a labyrinthine morass of legal jargon (thanks to lawyers), but at least with a private company you have an appeal process and even legal rights.

Who do you sue when your doctor is a government employee?
 
#143
#143
JayVols said:
No. I love working. I want to work and support myself and my family on my own. My point was that it would be easier to take disability and Medicare rather than fight the insurance companies to pay for treatments that I have paid them to cover.
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unless your companies insurance sucks balls, my guess is that your current option allows much better coverage at a lower cost to you than medicare even with the red tape.
 
#144
#144
JayVols said:
What are you advocating then? I am not trying to use a talking point. That's been my experience. How can a company deny medically valid services that one has paid to receive coverage? Is that not breech of contract? Does the insurance companies not take a risk by entering the industry that they may lose money on an individual? Is that not the nature of the free market? Why is the line 'just buy insurance on your own' always used by the right? Surely you don't think our healthcare system is perfect.

I am a puppet to no party, Dem or Rep.
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if you have a legit claim all you have to do is mention the word "lawyer" and you'll find them rather responsive. obviously not a perfect system, but not as horrible as you indicate.
 
#145
#145
MG1968 said:
of course I don't think it's perfect and where is it written that an insurance company must pay for everything?

If my insurance doesn't cover bariatric surgery and I go out and have my stomach stapled, do I have a right to try to force the insurance company to pay for it? No, I don't. I understand that insurance rules and regulations are a labyrinthine morass of legal jargon (thanks to lawyers), but at least with a private company you have an appeal process and even legal rights.

Who do you sue when your doctor is a government employee?
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I said that I wasn't a proponent of government healthcare. You knew it didn't cover that entering the contract. My insurance has tried to deny coverage of covered treatments. Different issue. We entered into a contract. I pay for covered services, they pay them if needed. They took entrepreneurial risks by entering into that contract, the basis of the free market. They don't want to pay for covered services now. That's changing the rules in the middle of the game. Should someone be denied a covered service for the sake of a company making money off that person? Risk/reward is the basis of the free market. They entered the business with the hopes not guarantee of making a profit off me.
 
#146
#146
droski said:
unless your companies insurance sucks balls, my guess is that your current option allows much better coverage at a lower cost to you than medicare even with the red tape.
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It pretty much sucks balls under the current administrator.
 
#147
#147
droski said:
if you have a legit claim all you have to do is mention the word "lawyer" and you'll find them rather responsive. obviously not a perfect system, but not as horrible as you indicate.
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I have used lawyer many times. It has worked. I just get tired of nearly every time having to do that.
 
#149
#149
JayVols said:
No. I love working. I want to work and support myself and my family on my own. My point was that it would be easier to take disability and Medicare rather than fight the insurance companies to pay for treatments that I have paid them to cover.
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We're going through this right now. My wife has cancer and we were worried insurance would deny us. We applied for medicaid (we made no money last year as students) and they denied us saying they weren't accepting applicants. Even though the paperwork is a nightmare, insurance came through and they are covering us. They cover 13 out of 14 claims, and of all denied claims that are appealed they reinstate half. So 13.5 out of 14 is a coverage rate of .964!

Gotta love cracked.com

5 Useful Organizations You Think Are Evil (Thanks to Movies) | Cracked.com
 
#150
#150
nbakerld said:
We're going through this right now. My wife has cancer and we were worried insurance would deny us. We applied for medicaid (we made no money last year as students) and they denied us saying they weren't accepting applicants. Even though the paperwork is a nightmare, insurance came through and they are covering us. They cover 13 out of 14 claims, and of all denied claims that are appealed they reinstate half. So 13.5 out of 14 is a coverage rate of .964!

Gotta love cracked.com

5 Useful Organizations You Think Are Evil (Thanks to Movies) | Cracked.com
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Glad they covered you. Wish I had the same experience. Prayers for you and your wife. Hope all goes well.
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