Recruiting Forum Football Talk IV

[Dudley Smith]

As someone who has watched Tennessee basketball for several decades and Rick Barnes somewhat closely for going into my third decade, I am torn on this discussion about Barnes.

On the one hand, I've never seen Tennessee get to a Final Four, and only once get to the Elite Eight, and I've sat through many, many seasons of flat out bad basketball. This is just not a basketball program that has traditionally been a perennial lock for the NCAA tournament. The eras of Don Devoe, Wade Houston, Kevin O'Neil, and Buzz Peterson loom large.

On the other hand, Rick Barnes is a classic high-floor, low-to-medium-ceiling coach. The Mark Richt comparison is absolutely a good one, and may undersell what Mark Richt accomplished. Kirk Ferentz at Iowa is in my mind an even better comparison. What Barnes has shown over his long career is that he will almost always get his team in the tournament, and will occasionally get his team past the first weekend. They will almost never be an outright bad team, but he has made the Final Four exactly once in 33 years as a head coach. His record in the NCAA tournament is exactly .500 (24-24) and has one one conference tournament in his entire career (Providence 1994). At age 67, I don't see his performance breaking through to another level, and would be absolutely shocked if we ever made a Final Four under him.

The question is - should we be happy with this status quo? In many ways, Barnes seems like the epitome of what a successful basketball coach has been at Tennessee. The fear of backsliding into irrelevancy like we were for most of the 80's and 90's is very real. At the same time, watching programs will fewer resources and no real history like Baylor, Butler, Texas Tech, Auburn, Gonzaga, etc. play in Final Fours makes us wonder "Why can't we do that?" I personally don't think he is producing at a level consistent with what we pay him. Someone making $5 million a year should be expected to reach a Final Four, and I would think we could find someone for half that amount who would get us to the tournament on a regular basis. However, it is not my money being spent, and apparently the UT Administration seems to think that him keeping us relevant and packing TBA on a regular basis still makes good financial sense even with his elite-level salary, so I don't think he is going anywhere.

 

[CAVPUT]

Qb is important and having 5 back is worth 2-3 games, easy. Throw in Cedric, a more developed Hyatt...I think we'll cause problems for pretty much everyone we play.

That said, and I expected more of it this year honestly, I can see where more of our games next year look like the Pitt, ole Miss, UK and Purdue games than USCe or Mizzou games.

Defense has to get better some how... How? No idea lol.

If put the o/u at 7.5. or 8.

Given our numbers crunch I'm not seeing help coming unless it's kids we're developing on our roster. I'd hoped we would make hay in the portal, but LWS painted numbers that don't bear that out. Maybe some leave between now and spring or after spring and we can ride the next wave of transfers in April to a better defensive roster. All I know is that we'd better put up some hellacious numbers on offense next season.

 

[C-town Vol]

As someone who has watched Tennessee basketball for several decades and Rick Barnes somewhat closely for going into my third decade, I am torn on this discussion about Barnes.

On the one hand, I've never seen Tennessee get to a Final Four, and only once get to the Elite Eight, and I've sat through many, many seasons of flat out bad basketball. This is just not a basketball program that has traditionally been a perennial lock for the NCAA tournament. The eras of Don Devoe, Wade Houston, Kevin O'Neil, and Buzz Peterson loom large.

On the other hand, Rick Barnes is a classic high-floor, low-to-medium-ceiling coach. The Mark Richt comparison is absolutely a good one, and may undersell what Mark Richt accomplished. Kirk Ferentz at Iowa is in my mind an even better comparison. What Barnes has shown over his long career is that he will almost always get his team in the tournament, and will occasionally get his team past the first weekend. They will almost never be an outright bad team, but he has made the Final Four exactly once in 33 years as a head coach. His record in the NCAA tournament is exactly .500 (24-24) and has one one conference tournament in his entire career (Providence 1994). At age 67, I don't see his performance breaking through to another level, and would be absolutely shocked if we ever made a Final Four under him.

The question is - should we be happy with this status quo? In many ways, Barnes seems like the epitome of what a successful basketball coach has been at Tennessee. The fear of backsliding into irrelevancy like we were for most of the 80's and 90's is very real. At the same time, watching programs will fewer resources and no real history like Baylor, Butler, Texas Tech, Auburn, Gonzaga, etc. play in Final Fours makes us wonder "Why can't we do that?" I personally don't think he is producing at a level consistent with what we pay him. Someone making $5 million a year should be expected to reach a Final Four, and I would think we could find someone for half that amount who would get us to the tournament on a regular basis. However, it is not my money being spent, and apparently the UT Administration seems to think that him keeping us relevant and packing TBA on a regular basis still makes good financial sense even with his elite-level salary, so I don't think he is going anywhere.

I think you stay happy and stick with Barnes. He gives our program relevance.

Then, you hope as he ages the program doesn’t fall off, that it stays at this level.

Then, with a well respected program and hopefully a healthy athletic department, you make the modern hire that puts you over the top.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

China subsidizes every country’s green energy push while doing nothing to stop any pollution at home. They know what they’re doing, and soon they’ll be the worlds #1 economy for their efforts.

And all these green idiots are too stupid or blind to see it. I love the outdoors and I want to make the world as clean as we reasonably can...but you have to point the finger at the worst violators...it doesn't matter what we do, if they don't do the same.

 

[volinbama256]

I’m not saying it isn’t. Hendo was great this year. But he seemed to struggle in bigger games, and not just because of what the defense was doing to him.

Maybe I’m wrong. It was just a question. Apparently Hendo played perfectly all year, and any criticism or questioning of his play at all is heresy on VN

Hooker had a great season, but he definitely struggled in the games you listed. Everyone has dubbed him almost perfect based on stats, but with the type of offense we run, the stats can certainly mislead the actual game play. I personally think he's a slightly above average QB who was able to thrive in a great system, but is easily rattled and has a hard time recovering from mistakes during a game. No one can argue that he basically played one click up from Milton in the bowl game, overthrowing and misreading routes left and right...

I think another offseason will help and think we will see less of his "off" games and "off" quarters of game play with another year of practice with the same players and system. With that being said, I certainly won't be surprised if another QB comes in and fights for playing time...

 

[orange parmejohn]

Would encourage folks to listen to Big Orange Sunday as Doug Mathews brought up a NIL point that I hadn’t heard. Only ~ 20 states have laws governing NIL which means in those other 30 states the boosters/universities can do whatever they want without any legal repercussions. Further evidence the NCAA implemented NIL with no rules. They are worthless (imo).

I fear that our problem will be the filthy rich boosters finding yet another way to keep Tennessee football as their pet.

 

[Dudley Smith]

I think you stay happy and stick with Barnes. He gives our program relevance.

Then, you hope as he ages the program doesn’t fall off, that it stays at this level.

Then, with a well respected program and hopefully a healthy athletic department, you make the modern hire that puts you over the top.

That very well may be the Admin's thought process, and he has certainly gotten the program in a position where the handoff to the next coach won't be a total rebuild. I wonder if they have had a conversation with him about how much longer he intends to coach, because eventually the fan base will have raised their floor on expectations, it's just human nature.

 

[volinbama256]

I think I need to come to grips with the fact our defense is not gonna be good next year. I was hoping, but it seems that hope was misplaced.

No, it will not be good next season and will put even more pressure on the offense to create big leads to hold onto in the 4th... Portal season is not over, but I am not impressed at this point that more emphasis hasn't been placed on getting players that will improve our defense... hell, there are currently like 2-3 DB's from Michigan alone just sitting there...

 

[Glitch]

Belts are worn around the waist, moran.

The waist!?

 

[therickbol]

They can transfer and are not obligated for service requirement if they leave before their junior year.........

Just read it.....

I am curious if we will see more of this from any service academy players that thinks, at least in their head, that they have a shot at an NFL career. I say this because of the situation with the player that needed help from the federal executive branch to make a special exception for him to try to make an NFL roster.

 

[Specs]

As someone who has watched Tennessee basketball for several decades and Rick Barnes somewhat closely for going into my third decade, I am torn on this discussion about Barnes.

On the one hand, I've never seen Tennessee get to a Final Four, and only once get to the Elite Eight, and I've sat through many, many seasons of flat out bad basketball. This is just not a basketball program that has traditionally been a perennial lock for the NCAA tournament. The eras of Don Devoe, Wade Houston, Kevin O'Neil, and Buzz Peterson loom large.

On the other hand, Rick Barnes is a classic high-floor, low-to-medium-ceiling coach. The Mark Richt comparison is absolutely a good one, and may undersell what Mark Richt accomplished. Kirk Ferentz at Iowa is in my mind an even better comparison. What Barnes has shown over his long career is that he will almost always get his team in the tournament, and will occasionally get his team past the first weekend. They will almost never be an outright bad team, but he has made the Final Four exactly once in 33 years as a head coach. His record in the NCAA tournament is exactly .500 (24-24) and has one one conference tournament in his entire career (Providence 1994). At age 67, I don't see his performance breaking through to another level, and would be absolutely shocked if we ever made a Final Four under him.

The question is - should we be happy with this status quo? In many ways, Barnes seems like the epitome of what a successful basketball coach has been at Tennessee. The fear of backsliding into irrelevancy like we were for most of the 80's and 90's is very real. At the same time, watching programs will fewer resources and no real history like Baylor, Butler, Texas Tech, Auburn, Gonzaga, etc. play in Final Fours makes us wonder "Why can't we do that?" I personally don't think he is producing at a level consistent with what we pay him. Someone making $5 million a year should be expected to reach a Final Four, and I would think we could find someone for half that amount who would get us to the tournament on a regular basis. However, it is not my money being spent, and apparently the UT Administration seems to think that him keeping us relevant and packing TBA on a regular basis still makes good financial sense even with his elite-level salary, so I don't think he is going anywhere.

This is a good post and I also am pretty torn on Barnes. Without the ucla thing I would probably say just let it roll. But he is the one who pulled that stunt and what I'm watching is not $6MM basketball.

 

[csprig9]

Whatever you do, never say a word about Hooker

Lol
Yes he could improve but the defense needs major improvements for us to take the next step
Defensive coaches gonna earn their checks this off season

 

[Rishvol]

Blessed with the best family!

Who's family album you steal this from?

 

[RikidyBones]

Oh look. A perfectly reasonable answer and response to a question. So rare to see on VN these days.

 

[volinbama256]

As someone who has watched Tennessee basketball for several decades and Rick Barnes somewhat closely for going into my third decade, I am torn on this discussion about Barnes.

On the one hand, I've never seen Tennessee get to a Final Four, and only once get to the Elite Eight, and I've sat through many, many seasons of flat out bad basketball. This is just not a basketball program that has traditionally been a perennial lock for the NCAA tournament. The eras of Don Devoe, Wade Houston, Kevin O'Neil, and Buzz Peterson loom large.

On the other hand, Rick Barnes is a classic high-floor, low-to-medium-ceiling coach. The Mark Richt comparison is absolutely a good one, and may undersell what Mark Richt accomplished. Kirk Ferentz at Iowa is in my mind an even better comparison. What Barnes has shown over his long career is that he will almost always get his team in the tournament, and will occasionally get his team past the first weekend. They will almost never be an outright bad team, but he has made the Final Four exactly once in 33 years as a head coach. His record in the NCAA tournament is exactly .500 (24-24) and has one one conference tournament in his entire career (Providence 1994). At age 67, I don't see his performance breaking through to another level, and would be absolutely shocked if we ever made a Final Four under him.

The question is - should we be happy with this status quo? In many ways, Barnes seems like the epitome of what a successful basketball coach has been at Tennessee. The fear of backsliding into irrelevancy like we were for most of the 80's and 90's is very real. At the same time, watching programs will fewer resources and no real history like Baylor, Butler, Texas Tech, Auburn, Gonzaga, etc. play in Final Fours makes us wonder "Why can't we do that?" I personally don't think he is producing at a level consistent with what we pay him. Someone making $5 million a year should be expected to reach a Final Four, and I would think we could find someone for half that amount who would get us to the tournament on a regular basis. However, it is not my money being spent, and apparently the UT Administration seems to think that him keeping us relevant and packing TBA on a regular basis still makes good financial sense even with his elite-level salary, so I don't think he is going anywhere.

Very good take---

I like Barnes, but have said many times that at this point, he is not developing the talent he has and is becoming a mediocre game coach. While others walk the sidelines and keep their team up and focused, Barnes sits in his chair, makes faces, and sips on Nutriment... This is where Pearl can, and does, coach circles around Barnes. I think this is why our team over the past few years seems to be so easily hot and cold game to game and can't play at a consistent high level. They get rattled and are intimidated easy, and tend to struggle to play at a high level game to game... This is on Barnes. Yes, he is still recruiting elite talent, but eventually if he doesn't do anything with it, he will be exposed and it will be harder and harder to convince kids to come play for him.

 

[YNWAvols]

Very good take---

I like Barnes, but have said many times that at this point, he is not developing the talent he has and is becoming a mediocre game coach. While others walk the sidelines and keep their team up and focused, Barnes sits in his chair, makes faces, and sips on Nutriment... This is where Pearl can, and does, coach circles around Barnes. I think this is why our team over the past few years seems to be so easily hot and cold game to game and can't play at a consistent high level. They get rattled and are intimidated easy, and tend to struggle to play at a high level game to game... This is on Barnes. Yes, he is still recruiting elite talent, but eventually if he doesn't do anything with it, he will be exposed and it will be harder and harder to convince kids to come play for him.

It seems he refuses to work the officials as well which has always annoyed me.

 

[Glitch]

Blessed with the best family!

Excuse me, miss. Blink twice if you are being held against your will.

 

[Smyrna ATL Vol]

My soccer peeps…. Anyone thinking about going to the greatest sports event on the planet this year? World Cup baby! USA USA!

 

[Glitch]

My soccer peeps…. Anyone thinking about going to the greatest sports event on the planet this year? World Cup baby! USA USA!

 

[Fun coupon VOL]

Here are my issues with the basketball team as it currently sits.

1. Continued reliance on seasoned players (JJJ and Bailey) who over the last four games and to be honest 80%+ of the season have brought nothing to the floor. Barnes and everyone watching knows what the ceiling is for the two players and it is not good enough, IMO to get us to the second weekend of the tourney. The second weekend of the tourney should be what we aim for every year.

2. JJJ hides on the offensive side of the ball except for when a 3 point shot is available. For someone who played as much as he did yesterday, he only had three rebounds and was 1 for 7 from the field.

3. Barnes continued complaints for the freshman and Powell on defense. I’m sorry, but the best time to teach is during the game. The freshman and Powell need game experience and until that happens our season is going to be done very early. Playing freshman in basketball is not like football.

4. Barnes calling out Fulky was uncalled for and a bad look IMO. You and your assistants should know if he feels like playing and should be able to read your players. Most could tell after the first couple minutes of him on the floor last night he didn’t have it.

5. Whatever confidence KC had at the beginning of the season is about half. Call it him being soft or Barnes playing head games.

 

[volbeast33]

I fear that our problem will be the filthy rich boosters finding yet another way to keep Tennessee football as their pet.

That is where a strong AD comes into play…. Dickey kept them in their lane….. the rest of the AD’s did not.

 

[BigSteve09]

We firing coaches in here again?

 

[Christian Lowe]

5. Whatever confidence KC had at the beginning of the season is about half. Call it him being soft or Barnes playing head games.

He just looks scared to make a mistake, and that makes him make more mistakes

 

[DawgInterloper]

Maybe we'll get lucky and see some Georgia or Bama players hit the portal on Tuesday. Fingers crossed!

Georgia's almost guaranteed to have multiple players hit the portal in the next couple of months, and not a bunch of scrubs either. When you sign highly touted HS players who have aspirations of being an immediate college star, and then they don't meet those short term expectations for any reason, including injury, lack of experience, etc., you'll lose some good ones to the portal. It happened last year and probably will every year from now on.

 

[triadvolfan]

Anyone thinking we “take the next step” in year two is likely to be disappointed. I’m not a pessimist, but looking at our roster, I think we won’t be poised for the “next step” until year 4.

On offense:
-We will have better season numbers because Hendo will be the guy all year.
-Not sure the OL will be better. And replacing Cade may be challenging.

On defense:
-We still lack overall athleticism and speed. Especially at LB and Safety.
-We are thin at edge, and history has shown you can’t depend on freshman on the LOS.

Overall:
-The OOC schedule sets up nicely.
-I don’t think we have fully cleared the hurdle with Kentucky, South Carolina, and Missouri yet. I know we blew out MO + USCe, but we caught both teams at their lowest point in the season. I could easily see a scenario where 2, if not all 3 of those games resemble the Kentucky game from this year. In short, I need to see us beat those three teams in consecutive seasons to believe we have cleared that hurdle.
-We aren’t close to Bama or Georgia. Nor is our talent leveled with LSU or Florida. With what we do now, we can definitely steal one of those, but we are still behind them all.

I think we will be a 6-8 win team again next year. And I’m ok with that. After all we’ve been through, I can be patient.

I'm more optimistic than all that. The schedule sets up much better than 2021. The OOC and Vandy look like sure fire W's. I can't say for sure we've put Missouri and USC in the rearview mirror but after last year's games it's hard not to be confident. We get Florida and LSU early, coming off weak seasons, and breaking in new coaches. This may be the first time in a while where I think playing Florida early is in our favor. Not sure how to think about Kentucky.

We have a good QB coming back for the first time since Dobbs. I'm optimistic about our coach for the first time in a long while. I think another year in the system and developing will do everyone good on offense and defense.

I know some of these games could turn into track meets but I like our chances in a track meet. I think everything would have to break right for us to win 10 games but 8 or 9 regular season wins seems doable. I'd be shocked if we only win 6.