Recruiting Forum Off-Topic Thread II

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#10,251
#10,251
Darth_Shiveman said:
The hate in that area of the world towards the west goes back a lot further than Iraq. You'd probably have to go back to the way Europe (America, to a certain extent, but at the time mostly England) carved up the Middle East after the end of WW1 and the way western countries backed (or sometimes put in place) rulers who protected western interests like oil while being generally s***ty rulers for their own people. A lot of modern middle eastern countries have borders that make little or no cultural or geographical sense. Countries like Iraq should probably have been split into 2-3 separate countries based on longstanding cultural boundaries. A lot of nomadic or pastoral peoples found their ways of life made much more difficult or sometimes impossible once the Ottoman Empire disappeared. Western support of the Zionist movement in the wake of WWII is a factor too, of course.

Even a lot of western hate and distrust in South Asia can be traced back to colonization. Pakistan (the 2nd or 3rd largest Muslim country, can't remember exactly) and Bangladesh wouldn't even exist if it weren't for colonization. Muslims had lived in India as a minority in relative peace for hundreds of years before it became the jewel of the British empire. People living in the Middle East and parts of Central or South Asia have seen their lives change rapidly (and usually for the worse) over the last 100 years.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the "they just hate our way of life" explanation. Historically, you can look at places like the Middle East and South Asia and see that, despite cultural differences, Muslim people were perfectly capable of getting along with Christians, Jews, and Hindus so long as there was political stability in the area. But over the last 100 years or so political stability has declined (or in some cases disappeared completely) and the standard of living has stagnated (or declined even) and it has opened the door for extremist groups. One thing most of the leaders of extremist groups like Bin Laden have in common is that their motives are ultimately political. IMO most of them use religion as a tool to take advantage of desperate or disenfranchised people.



That's not to say that Islam and religion doesn't play a role. The belief system and cultural history of Islam make its followers more susceptible to extremist movements than many other religions, IMO. They have a generally closer tie between religion and politics than the other Abrahamic faiths, which makes a movement like ISIS much more possible than, say, Christian extemists trying to create a Christian state. But, despite religion or culture, people are people. And most people living in prosperous, stable areas are content to go on living their lives and let others live theirs.


But when you live in a s***hole country with little to no prospects and you're constantly hearing about how much better off your ancestors were before whitey showed up and started carving up borders, and re-ordering systems of government.









The really s***ty thing about it all is that there isn't really anything we can do about it at this point.

We can't go in and try to make it all better without fighting wars that would make us even less popular (not to mention the fact that finding moral/fiscal justification for actions like that is basically impossible at this point).

We can't give too much support to many countries in the area because their governments are so s***ty we don't know if they'll turn around and use funds/weapons on a neighbor (or against us).

Going into areas like Syria or waging an outright war against ISIS will likely lead to collateral damage that will just create more people who hate us.

It's in Russia's interest to keep the are unstable because it's become a political and military morass and money pit for us.

We need Saudi oil badly enough that we'd rather keep a corrupt-ass regime (that we know is funneling funds to terror groups) in power than do anything to jeapordize our relationship with them.

Completely drawing out and leaving them to sort it out for themselves sounds appealing (and might help us out 100-150 years down the line...maybe), but we can't exactly just leave Israel to fend for themselves and ISIS/Russia to swoop in and do what they will. And people over there already have ill will towards us, that won't change overnight.

Also, drawing out completely would probably ultimately lead to even more refugee crises. We don't want that, obviously.

And there are democracies we set up over there just last decade that we'd basically be dooming to crumble. They might crumble anyway, of course. But swooping in in the name of democracy, setting up a government, and then leaving out and leaving it to die won't make us less unpopular over there.




The whole situation is FUBAR and anybody who claims they have a solution is either talking out of their ass or lying for votes.
Click to expand...

.
 
#10,253
#10,253
I believe extremist Islamic terrorists believe we are the great Satan and will always plot to subjugate and/or kill our people and all other non-extremist Islamic peoples no matter what we do or no matter what we have done. It's too small a world now to pretend we could've just stayed under the radar and avoid the wrath. Political stability over there would go a long way but it would only limit the carnage opposed to eliminating it. It's a crap sandwich. Kill em when you can.
 
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#10,256
#10,256
Darth_Shiveman said:
The hate in that area of the world towards the west goes back a lot further than Iraq. You'd probably have to go back to the way Europe (America, to a certain extent, but at the time mostly England) carved up the Middle East after the end of WW1 and the way western countries backed (or sometimes put in place) rulers who protected western interests like oil while being generally s***ty rulers for their own people. A lot of modern middle eastern countries have borders that make little or no cultural or geographical sense. Countries like Iraq should probably have been split into 2-3 separate countries based on longstanding cultural boundaries. A lot of nomadic or pastoral peoples found their ways of life made much more difficult or sometimes impossible once the Ottoman Empire disappeared. Western support of the Zionist movement in the wake of WWII is a factor too, of course.

Even a lot of western hate and distrust in South Asia can be traced back to colonization. Pakistan (the 2nd or 3rd largest Muslim country, can't remember exactly) and Bangladesh wouldn't even exist if it weren't for colonization. Muslims had lived in India as a minority in relative peace for hundreds of years before it became the jewel of the British empire. People living in the Middle East and parts of Central or South Asia have seen their lives change rapidly (and usually for the worse) over the last 100 years.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the "they just hate our way of life" explanation. Historically, you can look at places like the Middle East and South Asia and see that, despite cultural differences, Muslim people were perfectly capable of getting along with Christians, Jews, and Hindus so long as there was political stability in the area. But over the last 100 years or so political stability has declined (or in some cases disappeared completely) and the standard of living has stagnated (or declined even) and it has opened the door for extremist groups. One thing most of the leaders of extremist groups like Bin Laden have in common is that their motives are ultimately political. IMO most of them use religion as a tool to take advantage of desperate or disenfranchised people.



That's not to say that Islam and religion doesn't play a role. The belief system and cultural history of Islam make its followers more susceptible to extremist movements than many other religions, IMO. They have a generally closer tie between religion and politics than the other Abrahamic faiths, which makes a movement like ISIS much more possible than, say, Christian extemists trying to create a Christian state. But, despite religion or culture, people are people. And most people living in prosperous, stable areas are content to go on living their lives and let others live theirs.


But when you live in a s***hole country with little to no prospects and you're constantly hearing about how much better off your ancestors were before whitey showed up and started carving up borders, and re-ordering systems of government...









The really s***ty thing about it all is that there isn't really anything we can do about it at this point.

We can't go in and try to make it all better without fighting wars that would make us even less popular (not to mention the fact that finding moral/fiscal justification for actions like that is basically impossible at this point).

We can't give too much support to many countries in the area because their governments are so s***ty we don't know if they'll turn around and use funds/weapons on a neighbor (or against us).

Going into areas like Syria or waging an outright war against ISIS will likely lead to collateral damage that will just create more people who hate us.

It's in Russia's interest to keep the are unstable because it's become a political and military morass and money pit for us.

We need Saudi oil badly enough that we'd rather keep a corrupt-ass regime (that we know is funneling funds to terror groups) in power than do anything to jeapordize our relationship with them.

Completely drawing out and leaving them to sort it out for themselves sounds appealing (and might help us out 100-150 years down the line...maybe), but we can't exactly just leave Israel to fend for themselves and ISIS/Russia to swoop in and do what they will. And people over there already have ill will towards us, that won't change overnight.

Also, drawing out completely would probably ultimately lead to even more refugee crises. We don't want that, obviously.

And there are democracies we set up over there just last decade that we'd basically be dooming to crumble. They might crumble anyway, of course. But swooping in in the name of democracy, setting up a government, and then backing out and leaving it to die won't make us less unpopular over there.




The whole situation is FUBAR and anybody who claims they have a solution is either talking out of their ass or lying for votes.
Click to expand...

I agree with the reasons why but I will say this, Israel can take care of themselves, they are like really good at it. If there is even a chance that getting completely out of the area would save one US life 100 years down the road, it is worth it. We have lost far too many not to mention the ones who have come home broken for nothing other than to perpetuate the status quo.
 
#10,257
#10,257
bignewt said:
I agree with the reasons why but I will say this, Israel can take care of themselves, they are like really good at it. If there is even a chance that getting completely out of the area would save one US life 100 years down the road, it is worth it. We have lost far too many not to mention the ones who have come home broken for nothing other than to perpetuate the status quo.
Click to expand...

I agree we've lost too many for the cause but I disagree that it was for nothing. We don't know for sure what the outcome would have been had we stayed out of the ME. Maybe they would have left us alone, maybe they would have taken advantage of their perception of us being weak. There is no way to know for sure. Too many variables.
 
#10,258
#10,258
InVOLuntary said:
I agree we've lost too many for the cause but I disagree that it was for nothing. We don't know for sure what the outcome would have been had we stayed out of the ME. Maybe they would have left us alone, maybe they would have taken advantage of their perception of us being weak. There is no way to know for sure. Too many variables.
Click to expand...

All your maybes do not add up to justify the dead.
 
#10,259
#10,259
bignewt said:
All your maybes do not add up to justify the dead.
Click to expand...

Being a nearly 20 year veteran of the military, I can tell you that we all volunteered for military service. We didn't say, "I'll serve as long as we only fight on American soil." Or "See my attached list of countries I am willing to go to war in." We joined knowing full well that we could be sent anywhere in the world on the decision of our elected officials. We chose freely to do so. Now, I cannot and will not speak for every service member but when I am told "Go", I receive my mission, salute, and go accomplish that mission. I don't whine and complain about why are we here or there. I will gladly give my life on foreign soil if it has even the slightest hint of keeping my children and wife from ever having to fear for their lives on American soil. Every service member that has died on foreign soil did so keeping the fight away from our cities and streets. They died keeping the citizens of this country from having to experience military check points and curfews. They died on foriegn soil so that we can live freely and without fear. If everyday you get up, drive to work, earn a living, drive home, enjoy a nice supper, and go to sleep without fear of being bombed or attacked in your home then everyone of their sacrifices is justified.

Sorry for the rant but you are wrong on this one Newt.
 
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#10,260
#10,260
Glitch said:
Being a nearly 20 year veteran of the military, I can tell you that we all volunteered for military service. We didn't say, "I'll serve as long as we only fight on American soil." Or "See my attached list of countries I am willing to go to war in." We joined knowing full well that we could be sent anywhere in the world on the decision of our elected officials. We chose freely to do so. Now, I cannot and will not speak for every service member but when I am told "Go", I receive my mission, salute, and go accomplish that mission. I don't whine and complain about why are we here or there. I will gladly give my life on foreign soil if it has even the slightest hint of keeping my children and wife from ever having to fear for their lives on American soil. Every service member that has died on foreign soil did so keeping the fight away from our cities and streets. They died keeping the citizens of this country from having to experience military check points and curfews. They died on foriegn soil so that we can live freely and without fear. If everyday you get up, drive to work, earn a living, drive home, enjoy a nice supper, and go to sleep without fear of being bombed or attacked in your home then everyone of their sacrifices is justified.

Sorry for the rant but you are wrong on this one Newt.
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Don't be sorry, my father is retired military and I worked for the department of defense for many years, I understand the volunteer spirit and the whole "protecting your freedoms." However, just because your government tells you to go and that it protects your family back home does NOT mean that is true. Do you really think the boys that went to Vietnam protected us from harm? I very strongly do not and the middle east conflicts are no better.

I appreciate 110% the willingness of our military to put their lives on the line to protect us. I also whole-heartedly feel our government has led these soldiers to their deaths under false pretenses.

That is my rant and I too am sorry.
 
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#10,261
#10,261
Can you imagine the global power a true ME caliphate would have..Can you imagine ISIS in charge from Pakistan to Morroco and in charge of Indonesia? That is scary..
 
#10,262
#10,262
bignewt said:
Don't be sorry, my father is retired military and I worked for the department of defense for many years, I understand the volunteer spirit and the whole "protecting your freedoms." However, just because your government tells you to go and that it protects your family back home does NOT mean that is true. Do you really think the boys that went to Vietnam protected us from harm? I very strongly do not and the middle east conflicts are no better.

I appreciate 110% the willingness of our military to put their lives on the line to protect us. I also whole-heartedly feel our government has led these soldiers to their deaths under false pretenses.

That is my rant and I too am sorry.
Click to expand...

It is impossible to predict what could have happened if we had not entered the past conflicts. We entered Korea and Vietnam in an attempt to stop the spread of communism. If we hadn't and had allowed Russia and China to spread communism unchecked who knows what the world would look like today. The same goes for radical Islamic terrorism. If we had allowed the Taliban to remain in power unchecked then who knows how many more thousands of innocent civilians we would have buried by now. My point was that our military service members volunteer and I think most would agree that it is better to fight over "there" than amongst our own cities and towns. Vietnam was a poop sammich for all of those guys that served but that was a different time. I would love to sit back and not involve ourselves in others issues but I also see the benefit in not letting those that seek to harm us get cozy. I don't know the answer. All I know is that I can see the benefit from the unfortunate deaths of our precious service members. Not to take this in a different direction but these are the kinds of things that I know that God is using in some infinite way in His plan. When something seems so far beyond comprehension, I trust that God is working and just allow myself to go and do what I feel led to do. I have been blessed beyond reason so I hope that means I'm doing something right. I hate losing my fellow service members but there is only so much I can do personally. I will do everything in my power but after that, I have to not worry.

#innerpeace
 
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#10,263
#10,263
Glitch said:
It is impossible to predict what could have happened if we had not entered the past conflicts. We entered Korea and Vietnam in an attempt to stop the spread of communism. If we hadn't and had allowed Russia and China to spread communism unchecked who knows what the world would look like today. The same goes for radical Islamic terrorism. If we had allowed the Taliban to remain in power unchecked then who knows how many more thousands of innocent civilians we would have buried by now. My point was that our military service members volunteer and I think most would agree that it is better to fight over "there" than amongst our own cities and towns. Vietnam was a poop sammich for all of those guys that served but that was a different time. I would love to sit back and not involve ourselves in others issues but I also see the benefit in not letting those that seek to harm us get cozy. I don't know the answer. All I know is that I can see the benefit from the unfortunate deaths of our precious service members. Not to take this in a different direction but these are the kinds of things that I know that God is using in some infinite way in His plan. When something seems so far beyond comprehension, I trust that God is working and just allow myself to go and do what I feel led to do. I have been blessed beyond reason so I hope that means I'm doing something right. I hate losing my fellow service members but there is only so much I can do personally. I will do everything in my power but after that, I have to not worry.

#innerpeace
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I do not accept unnecessary death and I am sorry but Vietnam became communist anyway and it had zero effect on our lives other than the thousands that did not come home alive or in one piece mentally or physically. You can say that was a different time but you must learn from your mistakes...case in point the middle east and instead we have just went in and made everything worse. I can't imagine telling a child who's father died in Afghanistan that it was justified because I'm sorry in my mind it was not. Saying it's all God's plan is a great way to rationalize it but these are mortal men making these decisions. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind but I wish more people would question what our government does and the motives behind it. Patriotism can be a glorious thing but it can be used for devious acts.
 
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#10,264
#10,264
bignewt said:
I do not accept unnecessary death and I am sorry but Vietnam became communist anyway and it had zero effect on our lives other than the thousands that did not come home alive or in one piece mentally or physically. You can say that was a different time but you must learn from your mistakes...case in point the middle east and instead we have just went in and made everything worse. I can't imagine telling a child who's father died in Afghanistan that it was justified because I'm sorry in my mind it was not. Saying it's all God's plan is a great way to rationalize it but these are mortal men making these decisions. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind but I wish more people would question what our government does and the motives behind it. Patriotism can be a glorious thing but it can be used for devious acts.
Click to expand...

Agree on Iraq..I do not at all on Afganistan.
 
#10,267
#10,267
I lurk quite a bit here, but I wanted to stop by and say it was refreshing to read a conversation where two sides disagree but hash out their issues in a respectful fashion.

I would encourage you, if you are interested in the origins Middle East terrorism, to read Osama Bin Laden's fatwa against the U.S. It is long and relatively boring, but its worth taking the time to scan through. Personally, I think Bin Laden was a true believer who gave up his life as a Saudi prince to wage war against what he saw as crusaders and material/secular laws, which he believed to be polytheism.

Bin Laden's Fatwa
 
#10,268
#10,268
Theshag said:
I lurk quite a bit here, but I wanted to stop by and say it was refreshing to read a conversation where two sides disagree but hash out their issues in a respectful fashion.

I would encourage you, if you are interested in the origins Middle East terrorism, to read Osama Bin Laden's fatwa against the U.S. It is long and relatively boring, but its worth taking the time to scan through. Personally, I think Bin Laden was a true believer who gave up his life as a Saudi prince to wage war against what he saw as crusaders and material/secular laws, which he believed to be polytheism.

Bin Laden's Fatwa
Click to expand...

I'll definitely take a look at it, thanks.

We do typically get along here and have much more civil discussions. You need to know and accept that Newt is typically always wrong though. :)
 
#10,269
#10,269
bignewt said:
I do not accept unnecessary death and I am sorry but Vietnam became communist anyway and it had zero effect on our lives other than the thousands that did not come home alive or in one piece mentally or physically. You can say that was a different time but you must learn from your mistakes...case in point the middle east and instead we have just went in and made everything worse. I can't imagine telling a child who's father died in Afghanistan that it was justified because I'm sorry in my mind it was not. Saying it's all God's plan is a great way to rationalize it but these are mortal men making these decisions. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind but I wish more people would question what our government does and the motives behind it. Patriotism can be a glorious thing but it can be used for devious acts.
Click to expand...

Should we have gone to war in WWI or II? We were not attacked in WWI and we lost hundreds of thousands of lives in that war. We tried to stay out of WWII and a lot of good that did us. Are those wars justified? We went to stop aggression that was spreading. The main difference between those wars and the Vietnam/ME conflicts is that the battle lines were clear and we knew exactly who we were fighting. In the other conflicts we did not have a clearly defined end point or exit strategy. We are fighting against ideas and beliefs which are much more difficult to defeat. Heck, they are probably impossible to defeat for that matter. I still stand by my belief that if we ignore the problem, like you suggest, we will not only be mourning our brave service members but their innocent family members as well when the fanatical Islamic terrorists attack our nation on our soil again. I would prefer to not lose a single brave man or woman but if we can keep the fighting away from our families then that is the cost. I do not take it lightly and my hope is that the mortal men and women that make the decisions to send us don't take it lightly either.
 
#10,270
#10,270
Theshag said:
I lurk quite a bit here, but I wanted to stop by and say it was refreshing to read a conversation where two sides disagree but hash out their issues in a respectful fashion.

I would encourage you, if you are interested in the origins Middle East terrorism, to read Osama Bin Laden's fatwa against the U.S. It is long and relatively boring, but its worth taking the time to scan through. Personally, I think Bin Laden was a true believer who gave up his life as a Saudi prince to wage war against what he saw as crusaders and material/secular laws, which he believed to be polytheism.

Bin Laden's Fatwa
Click to expand...

I agree with Newt on most things actually. I just have a slightly different perspective on this one. I don't think we disagree too much though. It's just that where we do disagree is a pretty big point of contention. Neither of us want to see lives wasted. We just disagree on what wasted means I think.
 
#10,271
#10,271
Glitch said:
I agree with Newt on most things actually.I just have a slightly different perspective on this one. I don't think we disagree too much though. It's just that where we do disagree is a pretty big point of contention. Neither of us want to see lives wasted. We just disagree on what wasted means I think.
Click to expand...

Well that makes you wrong too. :)
 
#10,273
#10,273
Glitch said:
Should we have gone to war in WWI or II? We were not attacked in WWI and we lost hundreds of thousands of lives in that war. We tried to stay out of WWII and a lot of good that did us. Are those wars justified? We went to stop aggression that was spreading. The main difference between those wars and the Vietnam/ME conflicts is that the battle lines were clear and we knew exactly who we were fighting. In the other conflicts we did not have a clearly defined end point or exit strategy. We are fighting against ideas and beliefs which are much more difficult to defeat. Heck, they are probably impossible to defeat for that matter. I still stand by my belief that if we ignore the problem, like you suggest, we will not only be mourning our brave service members but their innocent family members as well when the fanatical Islamic terrorists attack our nation on our soil again. I would prefer to not lose a single brave man or woman but if we can keep the fighting away from our families then that is the cost. I do not take it lightly and my hope is that the mortal men and women that make the decisions to send us don't take it lightly either.
Click to expand...

The bolded portion are my thoughts exactly. You learn from your mistakes or you are doomed to repeat them, which we are doing. We had done plenty of fighting and killing in the ME BEFORE 9/11...did it stop them or give them more reason and resolve? Do you not think that if you took all those deployed men and women you could not better defend our borders? The problem with the definition of "wasted" or not "wasted" lives is that it is a hypothetical by saying well those men died on foreign soil fighting a moving, hard to define target to stop a POSSIBLE threat or attack in a war you said yourself is impossible to win. To me that is not worth it.

That's all from me, the whole thing is depressing and I try to be an optimist.

and Invol, two wrongs(you and glitch) do not make a right. :thumbsup:
 
#10,274
#10,274
bignewt said:
The bolded portion are my thoughts exactly. You learn from your mistakes or you are doomed to repeat them, which we are doing. We had done plenty of fighting and killing in the ME BEFORE 9/11...did it stop them or give them more reason and resolve? Do you not think that if you took all those deployed men and women you could not better defend our borders? The problem with the definition of "wasted" or not "wasted" lives is that it is a hypothetical by saying well those men died on foreign soil fighting a moving, hard to define target to stop a POSSIBLE threat or attack in a war you said yourself is impossible to win. To me that is not worth it.

That's all from me, the whole thing is depressing and I try to be an optimist.

and Invol, two wrongs(you and glitch) do not make a right. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Go Vols.
 
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