Recruiting Forum: Official Oklahoma Pre-Game/Game Thread

[Dust10]

Except that last point

Like many say, it's not that we lost. It's how we lost.

Is there really a good way to lose though? I think I'd rather lose the way we did as opposed to not having the athletes to compete as was the case for most of the past decade.

 

[RockyTopInBham]

This loss hurt me more than any other.

This sounds dramatic, I know, but I spent the past few hours contemplating Tennesse football and it's place in my life, and I'm questioning it all. The amount of time and emotion I invest in it isn't healthy, especially when I get seemingly so little back.

I'm tired of booming for recruits and watching the team/coaches still choke away huge wins. Tired of checking this forum and Twitter religiously every day for a new glimpse of hope and getting the same results on the field.

None of it matters when we still lose games like this. It's painful. It hurts me to my core, way more than anything that doesn't directly involve my life should.

I think I'm done for a while.

Wellbye.gif

I echo this completely. Like many, I guessed we'd go 9-3 this year. But when we are in a position to put a team away and completely CHOKE, it just hurts more. I'll never understand some of the decisions these coaches make in terms of personnel.

3rd & goal on the 1, you have a few MONSTERS in your WR group, and you put Johnathan Johnson & Josh Smith out there. You have a FREAK of a RB in Hurd, and you don't use him.

You have a walk-on that can't get off blocks, can't complete tackles, and is a liability in pass coverage. This is who we start at MLB.

Maybe this week we can work on tackling fundamentals in practice since we should've had 10 sacks against OU and for some reason kept whiffing?

Just frustrated. And most everyone here is. This game encompassed everything that the Vols have been for years. Filled with hope, every opportunity to take a big step, only to fall flat in the WORST WAYS POSSIBLE. The amount of pressure last year on Butch & Co. to beat FL was huge, and it just got bigger for this year's tilt. Lose this game, and this team is in major trouble.

Add another skeptic to the list, VolNation. I am now firmly in the "See it to believe it" grouping.

 

[Catbone]

Is there really a good way to lose though? I think I'd rather lose the way we did as opposed to not having the athletes to compete as was the case for most of the past decade.

I'd rather lose by lack of talent than by lack of coaching. Talent can be recruited. Coaching is a whole different can of worms. Chokes that are on the coached are the worst way to lose!

 

[Dust10]

I'd rather lose by lack of talent than by lack of coaching. Talent can be recruited. Coaching is a whole different can of worms. Chokes that are on the coached are the worst way to lose!

Are the coaches bad or did they coach a bad game? I'd lean towards the latter. I'm guessing you're on the former.

 

[WilliamDuVOL]

Your last sentence is the key. Butch is a bad in game coach who doesn't know how to handle a lead. Until he proves otherwise there's no reason to think he's going to change. I won't predict us to beat a single good team on our schedule until he showed that he'd capable.

The loss hurts, and yes it appears to be a pattern. I'm still calling for 8-4 with a decent bowl, and picked us to lose to OU anyway. However, if this series of games, going from 20-3 to 20-21 against BGSU and losing to OU after being up 17-0 doesn't wake Jones up and make him realize you have to be aggressive the whole game through, then nothing is going to wake him up to that fact. One of two things happens here, he realizes his mistake and learns from it, or in a relatively short amount of time, we will be looking for a new HC after 4 or 5 years of 6 or 7 win seasons and a lot of wasted talent.

 

[Catbone]

Are the coaches bad or did they coach a bad game? I'd lean towards the latter. I'm guessing you're on the former.

Million dollar question. We will know for sure by the end of the year. I will say the OL probably makes it near impossible to play call the way we want to. It got ugly in the second half. As WDV said, it appears to be a pattern.

 

[The Breakerboy]

Million dollar question. We will know for sure by the end of the year. I will say the OL probably makes it near impossible to play call the way we want to. It got ugly in the second half. As WDV said, it appears to be a pattern.

What??????? Dude we ran like 4 plays. None were to the edge after busting a big one to open the third quarter.

 

[Catbone]

What??????? Dude we ran like 4 plays. None were to the edge after busting a big one to open the third quarter.

Coaching sucks. Kerbyson said OU switched up their defense at half time and the OL couldn't do anything about it.

 

[Daloth]

I'm posting this here instead of the FF forum because, well, we all know how the FF is. I wanted to wait a few days before talking about this game to be less pissed off, but figured I'd share my opinions on things. Some will agree, some will disagree. I've watched football since I wore diapers (not saying much since I'm only 25, but still), however I have played college ball and professional sports in my short life, as well as been a part of teams in all sports that won 0 games and teams that went undefeated, and, regardless of the level you play on, some things remain constant. Chemistry, coaching, talent, schemes, and most importantly, momentum.

Having said all of those, here are my thoughts on the game Saturday that may go down as one of the worst blown games in college football this year, and the biggest missed opportunity in UT since 2001 (I could argue Mt. Cody game as well, but Kiffin leaving would've destroyed any momentum from that game anyway):

I'll get the good out of the way first

Spoiler

1. This team is talented. No, that's actually an understatement. Oklahoma is talented, top 15 talented, with one of the better coaches in the game today and we were one play or two from mercy ruling them. We, very clearly, have top ten talent, maybe even top five talent. Vegas was wrong on the betting line, prognosticators were wrong about OU being better, even about this being a close game. Our team is legitimately better than OU by roughly 3 TD's and maybe more. This team could easily win the east or beat any team in the nation on any given night. We've not been able to say that for years.

2. We have arguably the best 1-2 running back combo in the country. Some teams have a #1 guy better than Hurd, I know of no teams that have a #2 guy better than Kamara. Come week 6 or week 7 when this offensive line has experience I expect our running game to be on a level closer to Cam Newton led Auburn Offense (And possibly the same level of passing)

3. Our defense has the potential to be elite. It is already really good, but We held OU to 17 points in regulation. Two of those TD's came on freak plays, no calls from refs on offsides twice, and bad calls from refs like the uncatchable PI (though it was clearly interference.) And that was with our most experienced defensive player missing, most of our starting secondary missing, and our best recruit still not seeing extensive playing time for whatever reasons. If the offense doesn't sputter like it did in the second half, our defense plays much more lax in the 4th quarter and things like that PI don't even come close to happening, or it just doesn't matter if its called or not.

4. This wasn't an SEC game. Don't get me wrong, I'm furious as hell we blew a game like this (more on that in a moment) but it wasn't UF, UGA, or anyone else. It was to a to a legitimate top #20 team, in OT, needing them to have miracle plays and calls to have it come out in their favor. If you tell me beat UF or OU? It's UF every time, even if UF is 0-9 and OU is ranked. All we have to do is beat UGA and we win the east, IMO. And this team has proven it can certainly beat UGA.

Now, the bad:

Spoiler

1. Our team has no idea how to win. Let's be honest here, everyone loves Butch and claimed this team learned to win against USCe. But, here's the thing. Spurrier has done nothing for two years, and those two wins required epic collapses equal to or worse then our own last saturday. Spurrier just lost to UK. He is on his downward spiral, and Butch just caught him in it. If you take away that miraculous comeback what does Butch have? And we didn't win that game because of coaching. We won it because Dobbs and Hurd were just freakish. Essentially we won because of talent, which we do have in spades.

2. We have absolutely zero reason to trust the coaching in game for our team. Butch has now, on multiple occasions, proven he does not know how to make in game adjustments or know when to take risks or not take risks. 4th and 1 after an interception on the 1 inch line with a literal reincarnation of Eddie George, but faster, and you opt to kick a field goal? If we were up 14-0 sure. If we were favored to win enormously? Sure. If you haven't won a top 25 game in nearly a decade? No. Even Dooley knew when to take risks against teams you weren't favored to beat. When Butch opted for a field goal I texted every one of my friends and said "We just lost this game because of that play, he wants to not lose, not win." Bob Stoops made adjustments to his defense in the second half and neutralized us perfectly after the first drive (which was more due to us having Hurd make an amazing play and them reeling.) Our defense continued to play well, yes, but our offense changed nothing they were doing and we lost as a result, dropped passes or missed field goals be damned.

This final one is probably the most important one honestly.

3. Our team does not know how to play with or against momentum.

Think of the second overtime. All of the momentum in OU's favor. Dobbs looked over to get a play call and his face was terrified. I was able to predict his INT that second despite him having a pretty sound game for the most part up to that point.

When we got the INT on the first drive? And drove it down the field? and then got stopped on the 1? A coach goes for it there to get momentum in his favor, a field goal is better than nothing sure, but in that instance you go for broke with momentum.

When we got up 17-0 and had every advantage? Loudest stadium in college football history? Finding a way to not finish off your opponent shows you don't know how to handle success, or worse, you think you do.

When they started rallying and we seemed to have no idea how to stop it, yet were one or two plays away from stopping them each time? That showed we have no idea how to handle when someone else has the momentum.

OU showed how to play with momentum, something Bob Stoop's experience helps enormously with. They didn't weather our storm by any means, they simply hunkered down and put up wind turbines, and the second we slowed down they started them up and we had no idea how to take the power back from them.

However, we were legitimately 20+ points better than OU, and we found not one way, but multiple ways to lose. I hate to make this comparison, but at this point it is completely apt. Dooley lost in freakish manners you've never seen on any level. Rules were made because of how we were unjustly screwed in his tenure. He lost to Florida in an epic collapse just as Butch did to OU.

But every team he lost to? He did not have more talent than. Even that UF team was vastly more talented at almost every position top to bottom, especially the defense. Dooley never had a team this good, and he never lost a game that hurt like this. Take away Butch's one freak game against Spurrier as being a "signature" win and he has the same number of moral victories as Dooley, only Dooley's against LSU in Death Valley and refs screwing us against UNC are far more impressive.

The summation of my feelings:

Spoiler

Bad teams beat better teams with momentum and opportunity. Good teams lose because of the lucky bounce or the other team making risky calls or plays. We had a lot of good luck in that game, a few good calls, a great bounce or two, and we had the most talent. It's been a long time sense we could say those honestly.

But, OU had the better coaching staff, and it wasn't even close. If you switch the staffs, Stoops hangs 60+ on his own team with our players most likely. Butch continues to prove he doesn't have great in game coaching ability (which is totally fine, if you surround yourself with great talent and coaches who can make in game adjustments, one of which he has done for certain.)

Either Butch learns how to make adjustments and calls, or he hires someone who can do it for him, and at this point it's most likely the 2nd, as Butch has had a fair amount of coaching experience, or he is going to be nothing more than our Ron Zook.

I am in no way off this bandwagon, but anyone who is proudly screaming it is crazy. These coaches have proven they can recruit, maybe better than anyone in the country, but UT has always recruited well regardless of the coach.

Now its time for these guys to earn their paychecks. If we aren't undefeated from now until Bama (not one person should see UF or Arkansas as a serious threat at this point), and if we aren't in the running to win the East by the end of the season with how much talent we have and how down the East is, we should most definitely be worried about these coaches as fans, and though they won't be fired this year due to their recruiting acumen alone, they should most certainly be worried about their long term stability here as coaches. Because an average year this year and above average next year won't cut it, but if Butch pulls in another top recruiting class and then manages to not win the east or go to a serious bowl in the two next years? Well hell, Gruden himself would have a hard time turning down the talent we would be sitting on, and that's at least better than the previous guys were able to do for us.

 

[bignewt]

Nice summation, unfortunately i dont see it changing, maybe on the road Butch will loosen up and play to win.

 

[VOLtownUSA]

Are the coaches bad or did they coach a bad game? I'd lean towards the latter. I'm guessing you're on the former.

We'd be leaning toward the latter alongside you if this wasn't the third time this has happened. :hi:

 

[VOLtownUSA]

Million dollar question. We will know for sure by the end of the year. I will say the OL probably makes it near impossible to play call the way we want to. It got ugly in the second half. As WDV said, it appears to be a pattern.

The OL wasn't near as bad as some are making it out to be. It's difficult (read IMPOSSIBLE) for 5 to block 8, which is what they were being asked to do.

 

[VOLtownUSA]

<snipped>

Well said, this sums up exactly how I feel but much better written lol. :hi:

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

Coaching sucks. Kerbyson said OU switched up their defense at half time and the OL couldn't do anything about it.

They had a whole half to adjust, as well as call plays to counteract what was being done defensively. It's called adjusting on the fly. Apparently, we put a game plan in place, and if it works, we win. If not, we make zero adjustments, stick with it, and lose.

 

[Vols4us]

Good post, Daloth.

I have one major point to make above the roar. How can any HC hold players accountable for adjusting correctly to what they see on the field when playing their role (position); if he and the assistant coaches are not willing to adjust correctly to the what they see happening on the field in their roles? The players are not stupid, they know when double standards are happening. The recruits are watching it all as well. Better get it done.

 

[VOLtownUSA]

Good post, Daloth.

I have one major point to make above the roar. How can any HC hold players accountable for adjusting correctly to what they see on the field when playing their role (position); if he and the assistant coaches are not willing to adjust correctly to the what they see happening on the field in their roles? The players are not stupid, they know when double standards are happening. The recruits are watching it all as well. Better get it done.

Considering Butch claimed that OU didn't make any adjustments I'm starting to wonder if he and his staff can even tell the difference...

 

[Vols4us]

They had a whole half to adjust, as well as call plays to counteract what was being done defensively. It's called adjusting on the fly. Apparently, we put a game plan in place, and if it works, we win. If not, we make zero adjustments, stick with it, and lose.

Every competent HS HC in America oversees adjustments in every game. Most don't even wait until half time. What did they think Okie did in the second quarter to them when they adjusted their D to what UT was doing on O? The way the rest of the game went told everybody Butch was not making adjustments.

Okie adjusted the entire game on both sides of the ball. They even had Trevor Knight telling a coach what he was seeing the entire game. Act - react. It's how it works.

 

[Vols4us]

Considering Butch claimed that OU didn't make any adjustments I'm starting to wonder if he and his staff can even tell the difference...

Mind blown! Did he really says that?

I could list several scheme adjustments. The D scheme adjustment was obvious and our players even talked about it post game. They adjusted the O scheme with the passing game. Could go on, but it is pointless.

 

[Vols4us]

What??????? Dude we ran like 4 plays. None were to the edge after busting a big one to open the third quarter.

With 8 in the box and only 5-6 of our guys blocking. Most were Butch's gap-scheme-version-to-the-right-side-that-never-has-worked BS. I told my wife in the middle of the 3rd quarter it looked like the mob got to Butch at half time.

 

[The Breakerboy]

With 8 in the box and only 5-6 of our guys blocking. Most were Butch's gap-scheme-version-to-the-right-side-that-never-has-worked BS. I told my wife in the middle of the 3rd quarter it looked like the mob got to Butch at half time.

8 in the box means #8 in Orange should've been used a lot.

 

[Daloth]

Considering Butch claimed that OU didn't make any adjustments I'm starting to wonder if he and his staff can even tell the difference...

I know from watching the game on tv that I could see the differences. After the first drive in the second half stops because your back up tight end drops a pass, you keep doing what you're doing to see if it keeps working, sure. After the next drive you get nothing? You mix it up. After two drives of nothing? You change what you're doing completely.

It's such basic stuff I don't see how they've not done it before.

 

[Vols4us]

8 in the box means #8 in Orange should've been used a lot.

Agreed. Use the real talent or stop recruiting it and put your pets out there and just sell popcorn and ice cream.

 

[Vols4us]

The sun came up today and I am moving on so guys like nick will be happier. My last comment on this subject is I want to see Butch focus on being the General that leads his troops to victory, rather than the ideologue that is desperate to prove his battle theories correct. There is way too much carnage associated with the later. Even if he proves victorious in the end, which is doubtful based on history, there will be far less people around to enjoy the fruits of battle that are not bandwagon fans. Anybody that's been in the military, law enforcement, etc. knows that the first goal is to survive to fight/protect another day. That requires adapting to a changing battlefield and the moves of the enemy. He's not Gen. Sherman with a massive advantage of manpower, huge physical support, and brilliant tacticians at his call to impose his will while facing a tired, underfed, impoverished enemy when it comes to facing most of the SEC and national powers like Okie. He, many of his players, and a multitude of fans will not survive if he continues to make it about proving his theories and creation are great. My concern is that is who he is. I hope he grows and changes. Otherwise, losses like this will happen every year.

Go Vols. Beat WC. Yeah.

 

[RockyTop1384]

Serious question: Prior to last Sat, when was the last time we played a ranked opponent and the eye test would have told you we were the better team, win or lose?

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

Serious question: Prior to last Sat, when was the last time we played a ranked opponent and the eye test would have told you we were the better team, win or lose?

Been way too long.