Religion/Bible/Theology Topic - Beware All Ye That Enter Here

#1

jamesd1628

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#1
Okay, this is a tough topic to present without throwing out a wall of text, but I’m going to try because it is (in my opinion) quite interesting and should spark some good discussion. Here goes . . . .

Christianity generally teaches that the human race began with God creating Adam and Eve, two specific human beings, who then spawned the remainder of the human race, as well as committing the original sin, thus resulting in the fall of man. Obviously, the story is told in Genesis, which purportedly tells the story of the creation of man, the fall of man and what comes immediately thereafter.

Anthropologists tell us that modern man has been around for at least 100,000 or so years, and possibly much longer (I’m going to ignore the evolution issue and just stick to when anthropologists believe that modern man first came into existence). By contrast, civilization began roughly 10,000 years ago, give or take. So that means that modern man has existed on earth for roughly 10+ times longer than the amount of time man has attempted to perpetuate civilization. Prior to civilization, people apparently lived as hunter-gatherers, with no permanent settlements.

Christians have put forth many arguments to attempt to rectify the potential discrepancies in these various world histories. I’m sure some of the folks on here will be happy to enlighten us on some of those. What I’m interested in is an idea far more interesting, something suggested, implied and/or outright stated by a variety of sources that I’ve come across. That idea being that the Bible should be read, not as the story of the origin of man, but as the story of the birth of civilization. Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden would represent man living in pure nature as hunter-gatherers. The fall of man would correspond to the birth of civilization itself, i.e., man’s change from living in a state of nature to living in organized civilization.

There are several aspects of the Genesis story that arguably support this idea. For example, it is commonly believed that civilization began with man’s domestication of plants and animals. The Bible seems to make reference to this in Genesis, as the initial children of Adam and Eve were Cain, the crop farmer, and Abel, the animal shepherd. There are many other elements of the book of Genesis that seem to parallel the development of civilization. One article I have read specifically states that “Genesis 4 seems to describe the cultural achievements associated with the Neolithic revolution, evidence of which is preserved in archeological sites throughout the Near East.”

There is much more, but I’m trying to keep the original post relatively brief . . . .
 
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#3
#3
The thing is, if you don't take the story of Adam and Eve literally, it calls into question whether one should take any of Genesis literally. That is a can of worms, right there.
 
#4
#4
I see the bible, not only as a guide and teachings of God's word, but also a look into the history of early man. Science and Theology will not always mesh, but at times they both will come to a similar conclusion with reference to historical accuracy.
 
#6
#6
I see the bible, not only as a guide and teachings of God's word, but also a look into the history of early man. Science and Theology will not always mesh, but at times they both will come to a similar conclusion with reference to historical accuracy.

Seems like a cop out...
 
#8
#8
It gets real interesting to me if you consider the rise of civilization as the fall of man, that would imply civilization itself is a mistake. The story of the Tower of Babel can be read as a stinging indictment against the concept of civilization, as can many Bible stories.
 
#9
#9
It gets real interesting to me if you consider the rise of civilization as the fall of man, that would imply civilization itself is a mistake. The story of the Tower of Babel can be read as a stinging indictment against the concept of civilization, as can many Bible stories.

That would be consistent with the difficulties technology and science impose on religion today.
 
#10
#10
That would be consistent with the difficulties technology and science impose on religion today.

There are many, including non-Christians, who argue that technology/science/etc. have created far more problems than they have solved. There are also many books (scientific and otherwise) written about the nature of civilizations - specificially, that every civilization that has ever been built on this earth has ultimately collapsed.
 
#13
#13
I guess when we have lived 10000 more years to know for sure that scientific "dating" is indeed accurate, then we can continue this discussion
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#15
#15
As one who had once studied a lot of science in college and then came to be convinced that the Bible was indeed the inerrant word of God, I used to struggle to reconcile the two. One day during my devotional readings, I was reading one of the Gospel accounts of Jesus' first recorded miracle, the turning of water into wine. Those who tasted the wine exclaimed how the bridegroom had saved the best wine for last, but the servants knew that mere moments prior, that aged wine had been water. It struck me as I thought about this, here is an account of God creating something in moments that is already in an aged state. If you gave a sample of the wine to a scientist today, I'm sure he would be able to study it and give you all kinds of statistics showing how long the wine had aged and where the grapes were from, etc. But you, had you observed the miracle, would know that clearly, this wine had been water not long ago. This in my opinion is key.

The Bible tells us that God created the entire universe in a matter of days, by simply saying "Let there be...", and there was. He did not create and sow seeds for plants and trees and wait for them to grow, he created them and they had seeds of their own kind, but they were created in an "aged" state. I believe this could very well hold true for all of creation. Science is the wisdom of man, but when the wisdom of man fails to consider the awesome, unlimited abilities of God, his wisdom is foolishness.
 
#18
#18
I think I expounded several months ago about what convinced me that God existed and that the Bible was his Word, so yes, my thinking now always begins from there. I would be a fool not to.
 
#19
#19
How/why is "scientific dating" inaccurate? All forms of scientific dating?

I don't know if it is or isn't, but so many people that refuse to believe in God use it as a shining example. I have no idea how old the earth is and really don't care. It doesn't hinder my belief for one second.

I'll ask God one day
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#20
#20
I don't know if it is or isn't, but so many people that refuse to believe in God use it as a shining example. I have no idea how old the earth is and really don't care. It doesn't hinder my belief for one second.

I'll ask God one day
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Weak sauce, dude. You say it is inaccurate, and then have nothing to say about it.
 
#22
#22
I think I expounded several months ago about what convinced me that God existed and that the Bible was his Word, so yes, my thinking now always begins from there. I would be a fool not to.

it's an interesting theory, but why woudl god bother to create foscils and the like? does god want us to doubt him because there is evidence of evolution?
 
#23
#23
Weak sauce, dude. You say it is inaccurate, and then have nothing to say about it.

I actually never said it was inaccurate. I said in 10000 years when it has been indeed proven accurate, then we could continue the discussion
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#24
#24
I have always been interested by the longest continual culture of people known, the Aborigine. They have used "song lines" (sacred paths that run all throughout Australia) Their belief is that every time an elder walks the song line and introduces his clan to the elder spirits the particular path and the sacred earth formations there are created again like they were during the "dreamtime". By carrying on the sacred songs and walking the paths they insure the land in which they live will not fall into ruin or disappear according to their beliefs.

I know it doesn't apply directly to this discussion but given the post above I thought it interesting in the very least. I personally find the beliefs of many indigenous people to be very interesting and valid on many levels.
 
#25
#25
I actually never said it was inaccurate. I said in 10000 years when it has been indeed proven accurate, then we could continue the discussion
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But you don't even know how it works, so how can you even say that? Did you have to run your car out of gas before you could discuss whether it actually requires fuel or not?
 

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