Religious debate (split from main board)

As an aside, the Law of Conservation of Mass states that the mass of a closed system is constant over time.

The law is not true for "open" systems, like our planet.

If you need a scientific law to believe in your deity, I'd pick a different one.

You do know there is a new law of thermodynamics??

No, what I am saying is is that there is no evolutionary impetus to benefit those who are born with slightly larger heads.

But Hollywood actors and actresses usually have larger than average faces.

That's a good point there. Seems to me, Christians and athiests have the same problem, neither belief can be conclusively proven. Athiesm takes as least as much faith as Christianity.

Theoretically. :p

OV, you are a great thread-killer. This will be ignored, and unless you start to gain some sort of understanding for what it means to discuss, let alone 'debate' issues with other human beings, I have no interest in responding to you any further. You are narrow-minded and condescending. Your attempts to cast doubt on the sincerity of my previous religious experiences is insulting, presumptuous and lame. You can no more say that my past religious experiences weren't real or sincere than I could say that your marriage (if you are married) is a sham meant to cover up your hidden homosexuality - this is not an insult, but an example.

I thought he was doing pretty good.

You seem to be the one who is coming off as narrow minded and condescending.

If you were really the open minded discusser/debater you claim to be, then you would continue the discussion/debate rather than claiming he is doubting your sincereity (that wasn't what he questioned if you read carefully) and saying you will no longer respond to him.

What if you did have a spiritual experience that made all previous experience insignificant? Would that change your opinion?
 
Well if you keep Jesus close to you all the time, then your son is bound to run into him somethime. :eek:k:



No, you seem pretty smart, you'll figure it out on your own someday.

Everything you said was three dimentional, you must live in a very small world.





Actually I reopened the thread after Sankey's post nearly invoked Godwin's law and no one had answered for a good while.

Guess what, after I did, someone blessed us with some very good testimony, no thanks to you, thanks a lot. :)



You assume you know more than you really know habitually, it makes you have a suspiscious mind.

No, I'm pretty confident that I'm right actually. Science isn't about opinions, its about evidence, and the evidence overwhelmingly proves that I am correct. You can continue to spout anti-intellectual attitudes but I know that you don't scoff at your car, television, medicine, and phone just because the Bible didn't mention any of them. That's because denying that the science that makes them possible doesn't suit your religious and political agenda.
 
Science isn't about opinions, its about evidence, and the evidence overwhelmingly proves that I am correct.



I meant to bring this up but I forgot which thread it was mentioned in.

There's a quote somewhere that "reality is not a democracy" or "fact is not a democracy" or something these lines. In short, just because a majority believes something doesn't mean it is true.
 
No, I'm pretty confident that I'm right actually. Science isn't about opinions, its about evidence, and the evidence overwhelmingly proves that I am correct. You can continue to spout anti-intellectual attitudes but I know that you don't scoff at your car, television, medicine, and phone just because the Bible didn't mention any of them. That's because denying that the science that makes them possible doesn't suit your religious and political agenda.

Science means 'knowledge'.

There all kinds of sciences.

All sorts of theories can be derived from all sorts of sciences.

Theories are not science until they can be proven scientifically.

All sorts of scientific evidence can be used to support any given theory but until the evidence is overwhelming, then one can't say the theory is actual science.

You can do whatever you like also but I would like to observe, you seem to jump to conclusions like this was the Calaveras County Fair.

Bottom line is that any real scientist will admit that we actually know quite little compared to what there is to be known.
 
The Bible was written by men. They just happened to be men who didn't know anything about science.

And it has been changed by man over the years. That fact makes me a little suspicious sometimes when the Bible tries to make it sound like ONLY Christians have a place in the Kingdom of Heaven. I kind of wonder if that was a way to make their point when they were so determined to convert people.
The concept of "believe what I do or else you're wrong" isn't new.
 
Science means 'knowledge'.

There all kinds of sciences.

All sorts of theories can be derived from all sorts of sciences.

Theories are not science until they can be proven scientifically.

All sorts of scientific evidence can be used to support any given theory but until the evidence is overwhelming, then one can't say the theory is actual science.

You can do whatever you like also but I would like to observe, you seem to jump to conclusions like this was the Calaveras County Fair.

Bottom line is that any real scientist will admit that we actually know quite little compared to what there is to be known.

Science isn't just knowledge. Science, at its core, does not presuppose anything but "methodological naturalism", which assumes that, for the purposes of experiment, there are no ghosts or aliens magically changing the results of the experiment. That is, when we see two cars collide, we are concerned with the natural forces of work - the laws of physics - not the remote possibility that God may be doing some smiting or an alien is projecting the whole thing as a hologram.

Science is a process. And that process, over time, collects knowledge in the form of evidence. Hypotheses are tested, and theories formed. You're right, all theories have to be tested, but to be an accepted theory, it has to be supported from multiple different angles. Evolution, for instance, could have been completely blown out of the water several times. One single rabbit fossil in the precambrian period would absolutely destroy the notion of evolution. The mitochondrial DNA I brought up earlier showing evidence of a single mother and father to all humans today would destroy our ideas about human evolution. There are hundreds of twists that could have spoiled evolution, but it has met every single test.

The true power of a scientific theory is it uses what we already know to predict future discoveries. By the time evolution had become an established fact, we knew that there had to be a variety of different transitional fossils, such as fish with four limbs (so-called "tetrapods"), amphibious large mammals (the ancestors of whales), etc. And since then we have found beautiful specimens of these species (tiktaalik and ambulocetus in the examples above).

Your notion that the evidence can support any given theory is plain wrong. More evidence just triangulates the correct theory. There is no better model yet conceived that explains all of the evidence we have collected in the fossil record, in genetics research, and in the many disparate fields of biology and medicine than evolution. As a famous scientist once said, "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution".

If you want to engage me on the evidence then please do so. But you cannot win this debate with an argument from ignorance. Just because we don't know one thing doesn't mean we don't know anything. As Charles Darwin once said, "It is those who know little, not those who know much, who assert that this problem or that will never be solved by science". You're right, any scientist will tell you that we don't know everything. But not knowing everything is not the same thing as knowing nothing.
 
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I meant to bring this up but I forgot which thread it was mentioned in.

There's a quote somewhere that "reality is not a democracy" or "fact is not a democracy" or something these lines. In short, just because a majority believes something doesn't mean it is true.

Which further supports my argument. Evolution isn't true because scientists say so. But the fact that scientists agree is a reflection of the evidence. Even if we were to all die tomorrow in some freak accident, life will evolve as long as it continues. It has evolved without us before, it evolves as we watch it now, and will evolve after we've moved on.
 
And it has been changed by man over the years. That fact makes me a little suspicious sometimes when the Bible tries to make it sound like ONLY Christians have a place in the Kingdom of Heaven. I kind of wonder if that was a way to make their point when they were so determined to convert people.
The concept of "believe what I do or else you're wrong" isn't new.

The fairly recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls from 2,000 years ago are the same as the scriptures we have today.

About the only differences are that the book of Esther (which is the only book in the Bible without the word 'God' in it) is not included and there are several books of minor prophets found in those discoveries that aren't included in our Bible of today.

As for the Gospels of Jesus, severe penalties are given for anyone who changes any word in any way.

The only 'change' would be the difficulty in translating from one language to another.

In most cases words don't always have exact translations into another language.
 
The fairly recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls from 2,000 years ago are the same as the scriptures we have today.

About the only differences are that the book of Esther (which is the only book in the Bible without the word 'God' in it) is not included and there are several books of minor prophets found in those discoveries that aren't included in our Bible of today.

As for the Gospels of Jesus, severe penalties are given for anyone who changes any word in any way.

The only 'change' would be the difficulty in translating from one language to another.

In most cases words don't always have exact translations into another language.

I think what he meant to say was that the inclusion and exclusion of certain books in the Bible has more to do with political maneuvering at the time they were compiled than the truth in those books. I know some Christians quote Paul of Tarsus more than Jesus, even though Paul wasn't (supposedly) the son of God himself!

You think that scientific evidence can be twisted? Brother, I invite you to look at how the Bible has been used then. It has been twisted to fit every single theory in Christian theology there is. The only difference between those theories and scientific ones are that we have no way to test a theological theory because they are constructed to rely on faith rather than observation or evidence.
 
Science isn't just knowledge. Science, at its core, does not presuppose anything but "methodological naturalism", which assumes that, for the purposes of experiment, there are no ghosts or aliens magically changing the results of the experiment. That is, when we see two cars collide, we are concerned with the natural forces of work - the laws of physics - not the remote possibility that God may be doing some smiting or an alien is projecting the whole thing as a hologram.

Science is a process. And that process, over time, collects knowledge in the form of evidence. Hypotheses are tested, and theories formed. You're right, all theories have to be tested, but to be an accepted theory, it has to be supported from multiple different angles. Evolution, for instance, could have been completely blown out of the water several times. One single rabbit fossil in the precambrian period would absolutely destroy the notion of evolution. The mitochondrial DNA I brought up earlier showing evidence of a single mother and father to all humans today would destroy our ideas about human evolution. There are hundreds of twists that could have spoiled evolution, but it has met every single test.

The true power of a scientific theory is it uses what we already know to predict future discoveries. By the time evolution had become an established fact, we knew that there had to be a variety of different transitional fossils, such as fish with four limbs (so-called "tetrapods"), amphibious large mammals (the ancestors of whales), etc. And since then we have found beautiful specimens of these species (tiktaalik and ambulocetus in the examples above).

Your notion that the evidence can support any given theory is plain wrong. More evidence just triangulates the correct theory. There is no better model yet conceived that explains all of the evidence we have collected in the fossil record, in genetics research, and in the many disparate fields of biology and medicine than evolution. As a famous scientist once said, "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution".

If you want to engage me on the evidence then please do so. But you cannot win this debate with an argument from ignorance. Just because we don't know one thing doesn't mean we don't know anything. As Charles Darwin once said, "It is those who know little, not those who know much, who assert that this problem or that will never be solved by science". You're right, any scientist will tell you that we don't know everything. But not knowing everything is not the same thing as knowing nothing.

Call it what you wish, the word 'science' is from Latin, it means 'knowledge.'

It is true that 'science' can be used to advance all sorts of agendas which are at their core completely 'political science.'

As for one single 'mother of mankind', are you trying to say that many homo sapien mothers evolved from what would be considered prehuman at the same time or was their a first one??

I would say the theory of evolution hasn't met every single test because of the many gaps so far found in the fossil record.

The theory that everything on Earth has evolved from pond scum, whether true or not true, still does not prove there is no such thing as a spirtual realm nor that there is no such thing as divine intervention.

In short, all empirical knowledge cannot disprove divine enlightenment.

Another point, some of the most acccomplished and knowledgeable scientists in the world are still believers.
 
Call it what you wish, the word 'science' is from Latin, it means 'knowledge.'

Well the etymology of the word has nothing to do with the way its used today. The word "word" itself comes from the Middle English root of "to speak", but words are written as well as spoken.

It is true that 'science' can be used to advance all sorts of agendas which are at their core completely 'political science.'

No one disputes that. But the use of a scientific theory to advance a political agenda has nothing to do with the truth of a scientific theory. And before you make that mental connection, no, the Nazis took no inspiration from Darwin. In fact, they were more in line with the ideas that breeders use. Does that mean that the practice of purebreeding dogs should be thrown out?

As for one single 'mother of mankind', are you trying to say that many homo sapien mothers evolved from what would be considered prehuman at the same time or was their a first one??

A population. As it happens there doesn't have to be a single "breakthrough" or a whole bunch of identical clones getting the same trait at the same time. People tend to forget to think about evolution laterally as well as longitudinally (if you're a visual thinker like me). An individual gene had to come from one individual, but it takes time for that individual's children to multiply, so eventually the gene becomes spread throughout. It's an accumulation of small traits that over time become widespread because of the slight advantage they give.

I would say the theory of evolution hasn't met every single test because of the many gaps so far found in the fossil record.

We view the fossil record as one giant test. If there were problems we would have found them by now, instead we have found a couple of interesting facts

* 99% of all life that ever existed (from looking at the fossils we have) is now extinct

* Fossils are found in layers with other fossils, dated to the same time period. You never find rabbits in the precambrian (a time before complex multicellular life), for instance, and you never find dinosaurs before their time.

* Many gaps have been predicted to be filled by a certain type of organism which was later found in the time period predicted.

Sure, maybe I'm exaggerating by saying every "single" test. But as a whole, evolution has been wildly successful, more so than a casual read would have you believe. There are lots of things (like my whole post earlier on junk DNA and how chickens have the genes for teeth, etc) that you would never hear because 1) it's not interesting enough to make major headlines, 2) it's the kind of thing that you would only hear if you were a working scientist or someone who debates this kind of thing.

The theory that everything on Earth has evolved from pond scum, whether true or not true, still does not prove there is no such thing as a spirtual realm nor that there is no such thing as divine intervention.

"Pond scum" is a bit misleading. The early earth was in many ways as alien as pond scum but even the pond scum today is far more advanced than primitive life-forms. We're talking about self-replicating molecules of RNA. And I think you underestimate the time scale involved. Throughout its billions-year-old history, the earth has spent more time covered in bacteria than complex life. Full billion year periods passed by without as much as a single tree, until about 500 million years ago when the tetrapods emerged. One thing about evolution that is supported by the fossil record, once a huge barrier is overcame, there are many niches which are (relatively) quickly filled. Once tetrapods managed to adapt to the land, there was absolutely no competition. That's why it took only a hundred million years to get dinosaurs, when it took billions just to get a walking fish.

And you're right, there is no way to prove that there isn't a spiritual realm or divine intervention. But once you go down that rabbit-hole of entertaining the notion that divine beings are not only knowable but real, there is also no way of knowing which ones are fiction, either. Who's to say that Jehovah is made up and Zeus is real?

That is my central point: science delivers the goods, by giving a system where we can test claims. No other system on the planet does that. Science works because it can sort out the fiction from the reality. That's why the world is still confused over who God really is (if it even exists or is knowable), and no one is debating the fact that GPS works.

Another point, some of the most acccomplished and knowledgeable scientists in the world are still believers.

Firstly, it doesn't matter what smart scientists think, because an individual's opinion is not evidence of the truth.

Secondly, who? I can name 5 atheist/agnostic scientists for every credulous one you can (of both equal and superior prestige, might I add). And I'll go ahead and point out that historically belief in God was higher amongst all levels of society, scientists being no exception. The problem is confounded by the fact that the only people with any money were the church and royalty, and the royalty spent half of it kissing the church's bum half the time, not to mention the fact that calling oneself an atheist signing one's own death warrant for much of history, so it's no wonder that scientists were saying good things about religion. Even though you have a hundreds-year headstart on credulous scientists, my challenge still stands, because science over the past 100 years has made the other 300 look like a joke.
 
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Snakes, I think you are spot on.

But be prepared to get a lot of "you can't prove God doesn't exist...there are some things science will never figure out....belief in a higher power isn't irrational" type arguments.
 
Snakes, I think you are spot on.

But be prepared to get a lot of "you can't prove God doesn't exist...there are some things science will never figure out....belief in a higher power isn't irrational" type arguments.

You cannot reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into. The only way to convince someone on an issue as weighty as this is to inform them and let them decide, hopefully they realize eventually that God is no different than Baal, who in turn is no different than Thor or Apollo. He's just the divine being who's "in fashion" right now, so to speak.
 
I dunno, the whole fish crawling on to land seems like the three eyed fish from the Simpsons.

I think the bing bang is just as silly but if I had to go with one, I would go with the Iron Oxide theory.
 
I dunno, the whole fish crawling on to land seems like the three eyed fish from the Simpsons.

I think the bing bang is just as silly but if I had to go with one, I would go with the Iron Oxide theory.

Far be it from me to tell you what to think, but I don't really find the Big Bang all that silly from a physics standpoint. Now, there's alot of popular misunderstanding about what actually it means so I don't really blame you. It's a complicated model.
 
Yeah, in college I had a teacher tell me researchers recreated the bing bang in a bottle...................
 
Yeah, in college I had a teacher tell me researchers recreated the bing bang in a bottle...................

I think your teacher might have been referencing a particle accelerator. In the first few seconds of the Big Bang the universe (which was small, the Big Bang is both an explosion of space as well as time and matter) was so unbelievably hot that particles were not even formed - there were no protons, neutrons, or atoms. Instead what the model predicts is a "quark-gluon plasma", a soup of quarks, the particles that make up protons, and gluons, the particles that hold quarks together. The fact that we recreated them in a particle accelerator is just astounding, and it lends even more support to the Big Bang theory.
 
Malcom Frisbie, taught Evolution and Extinction.

He is the kind that set aside a day to disprove creation to those evil christians.

That was a fun day from my part!

:)
 
He ran his mouth an awful lot, it is amazing no one ever said any thing.

A girl was pledging and had to wear something crazy to class and he called her a cum dumster.

He never hid his dislike to greek row.
 
You cannot reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into. The only way to convince someone on an issue as weighty as this is to inform them and let them decide, hopefully they realize eventually that God is no different than Baal, who in turn is no different than Thor or Apollo. He's just the divine being who's "in fashion" right now, so to speak.

Dang, that sound so familiar.
 

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