Religious debate (split from main board)

[Oldvol75]

I am not sure how proving we don't know something proves a deity, which seems to be what you've been driving at.

Thats not what I'm driving at. I'm trying to see how you (and others) have come to your conclusions. You have obiviously read the Bible and know what it says. That is the most I could offer you, so thats not needed. I'm learning here.

 

[rjd970]

Did you have a beginning? Or have you always existed?

According to Einstein, since energy can never be destroyed or created, "I" or "you" or "anybody" never really had a beginning. In the truest sense our bodies aren't really necessary, they are only mechanisms by which we interact within the universe.

"Reality is a special case". Out of all of Einstein's quotes, this one holds the most true.

 

[Oldvol75]

According to Einstein, since energy can never be destroyed or created, "I" or "you" or "anybody" never really had a beginning. In the truest sense our bodies aren't really necessary, they are only mechanisms by which we interact within the universe.

"Reality is a special case". Out of all of Einstein's quotes, this one holds the most true.

That suggest a soul.

Since we never had a beginning or an ending, where were we before and where will we go afterwards? Death of the physical body that is.

 

[rjd970]

You had a beginning and you will have an end. Every living thing has that.

I realize that evolution and the Big Bang are seperate theories. But without the first, the second could not have happened, thus linking the two.

But with time, we have a begining and an end. If we do not focus on time then why do scientists give dates? Why do they tell us that this particular rock is X number of years old. That dinosaurs live X-number of years ago and so forth. You can't use time in one sence and not in another of your choosing.

Of course you can. Time, just like distance, volume, etc...is an entity that can be measured. Afterall, we exist (as we know it) in four dimensional space...with time being the 4th dimension. Just like time, the other three units can be measured.

 

[rjd970]

That suggest a soul.

Since we never had a beginning or an ending, where were we before and where will we go afterwards? Death of the physical body that is.

You say soul, I say consciousness.

As far as where we go after physical death, I don't know, and quite frankly, neither do you. I don't care what any iron age book says on the subject.

 

[IPorange]

That suggest a soul.

Since we never had a beginning or an ending, where were we before and where will we go afterwards? Death of the physical body that is.

Our energy continues on within the universe, but our consciousness is gone.

 

[Oldvol75]

You say soul, I say consciousness.

As far as where we go after physical death, I don't know, and quite frankly, neither do you. I don't care what any iron age book says on the subject.

"In the truest sense our bodies aren't really necessary, they are only mechanisms by which we interact within the universe."

In order for you to make this statement you would have to know something about where your "consciousness" came from and where it will go. Other wise how would one know that our bodies aren't necessary for this? Wouldn't that require prior knowledge?

 

[Oldvol75]

Our energy continues on within the universe, but our consciousness is gone.

Can this be 100% proved? To use the Bibical term, that is somewhat akin to eternal life.

 

[Oldvol75]

Our energy continues on within the universe, but our consciousness is gone.

Which one of you is correct? Because what I have gathered from rjd the consciousness remains.

 

[rjd970]

Which one of you is correct? Because what I have gathered from rjd the consciousness remains.

You would be wrong.

 

[rjd970]

"In the truest sense our bodies aren't really necessary, they are only mechanisms by which we interact within the universe."

In order for you to make this statement you would have to know something about where your "consciousness" came from and where it will go. Other wise how would one know that our bodies aren't necessary for this? Wouldn't that require prior knowledge?

Energy does not equal consciousness. After death our cosciousness and bodies disappear, the energy is just transformed. Einstein said that philosophically speaking, bodies, or consciousness for that matter, aren't even needed.

 

[Oldvol75]

Energy does not equal consciousness. After death our cosciousness and bodies disappear, the energy is just transformed. Einstein said that philosophically speaking, bodies, or consciousness for that matter, aren't even needed.

Is there anyway to confirm or deny this other than death itself? Or do we just take Einstein's theory as truth because he said it and developed a theory for it?

 

[IPorange]

Is there anyway to confirm or deny this other than death itself? Or do we just take Einstein's theory as truth because he said it and developed a theory for it?

We're having a disconnect here. The energy your body uses while you are alive is no different than the energy that powers a light bulb. When you die, the energy that made "you" exists as stored chemical energy-- your body. It releases that energy by decomposing. That energy continues on, sustaining whatever life feeds off of it or remaining stored.

 

[rjd970]

We're having a disconnect here. The energy your body uses while you are alive is no different than the energy that powers a light bulb. When you die, the energy that made "you" exists as stored chemical energy-- your body. It releases that energy by decomposing. That energy continues on, sustaining whatever life feeds off of it or remaining stored.

This.

Everything that is uniquely "you" ceases to exist after death. But the energy you are a part of lives on.

 

[Oldvol75]

We're having a disconnect here. The energy your body uses while you are alive is no different than the energy that powers a light bulb. When you die, the energy that made "you" exists as stored chemical energy-- your body. It releases that energy by decomposing. That energy continues on, sustaining whatever life feeds off of it or remaining stored.

So your really saying,"ashes to ash and dust to dust".

What about the bodies that are placed in a vault? What do they feed? What about bodies that are use as cadavers where the body is used entirely for scientific research? All bodies are not always buried where other organisms can feed off of them. What feeds off of a body that has been cremated? Does the theory hold true in these cases? Or would they just sit in the vault and kind of just glow? Can the theory be replecated in these cases?

 

[Oldvol75]

We're having a disconnect here. The energy your body uses while you are alive is no different than the energy that powers a light bulb. When you die, the energy that made "you" exists as stored chemical energy-- your body. It releases that energy by decomposing. That energy continues on, sustaining whatever life feeds off of it or remaining stored.

But doesn't there have to be a power source in order for the bulb to glow? I have quite a few above my frig in a cabinet that haven't glowed until I connected them to the power source. The bulb just has potential energy until connected! They don't have energy in and of themselves.

 

[IPorange]

So your really saying,"ashes to ash and dust to dust".

What about the bodies that are placed in a vault? What do they feed? What about bodies that are use as cadavers where the body is used entirely for scientific research? All bodies are not always buried where other organisms can feed off of them. What feeds off of a body that has been cremated? Does the theory hold true in these cases? Or would they just sit in the vault and kind of just glow? Can the theory be replecated in these cases?

The bodies in a vault are still stored chemical energy, and actually there are microbes that are taking in that energy. Same with cadavers for scientific research.

If a body is cremated, then that energy is being released as heat and light, which in turn interacts with the environment around it, passing that energy on.

This isn't a theory, actually. This is the first law of thermodynamics. It can 100 % be replicated. This is as air tight a thing as we can ever get. If it weren't true, we wouldn't be communicating right now.

 

[IPorange]

But doesn't there have to be a power source in order for the bulb to glow? I have quite a few above my frig in a cabinet that haven't glowed until I connected them to the power source. The bulb just has potential energy until connected! They don't have energy in and of themselves.

Yes, it needs a power source. Otherwise it has no energy... Not even potential energy (unless you count it being on a high surface or something.)

What powers an animal or plant? Do they have souls? Why do you think you have to eat and take in calories?

 

[Oldvol75]

The bodies in a vault are still stored chemical energy, and actually there are microbes that are taking in that energy. Same with cadavers for scientific research.

If a body is cremated, then that energy is being released as heat and light, which in turn interacts with the environment around it, passing that energy on.

This isn't a theory, actually. This is the first law of thermodynamics. It can 100 % be replicated. This is as air tight a thing as we can ever get. If it weren't true, we wouldn't be communicating right now.

WOW! We went from Big Bang, Evolution to thermodynamics!

In a vault, when the body has been completely exhausted and nothing remains, just what does the energy look like? Will microbes continue to grow with nothing to sustain it? Wouldn't the microbes begin to eat themselves in order to survive? If so, what happens to the last one standing?

 

[IPorange]

WOW! We went from Big Bang, Evolution to thermodynamics!

In a vault, when the body has been completely exhausted and nothing remains, just what does the energy look like? Will microbes continue to grow with nothing to sustain it? Wouldn't the microbes begin to eat themselves in order to survive? If so, what happens to the last one standing?

In an airtight vault that is completely sterile, what would happen to the body?

It would be preserved, right? Because decomposing as we know it is the release of energy in the form of chemical reactions as well as the actions of microbes.

This is no different than saying if you rolled a boulder up a hill, and left it firmly entrenched, where's the energy? It still has the stored potential energy from being pushed up the hill, even if it isn't currently in motion and is being held in place.

This is the same concept as a hydro electric dam, or even your computer's power supply unit (the thing with the fan) that takes in AC current and then releases low voltage DC current to your computer's components. It's all around you all the time.

 

[IPorange]

WOW! We went from Big Bang, Evolution to thermodynamics!

Science and science, to science. It isn't that huge of a leap.

 

[Oldvol75]

In an airtight vault that is completely sterile, what would happen to the body?

It would be preserved, right? Because decomposing as we know it is the release of energy in the form of chemical reactions as well as the actions of microbes.

This is no different than saying if you rolled a boulder up a hill, and left it firmly entrenched, where's the energy? It still has the stored potential energy from being pushed up the hill, even if it isn't currently in motion and is being held in place.

This is the same concept as a hydro electric dam, or even your computer's power supply unit (the thing with the fan) that takes in AC current and then releases low voltage DC current to your computer's components. It's all around you all the time.

Now you're going against what you said eariler. Let me refresh you.

The bodies in a vault are still stored chemical energy, and actually there are microbes that are taking in that energy.

So the microbes come into the vault with the body? Then it could not be sterile.

 

[IPorange]

Now you're going against what you said eariler. Let me refresh you.

The bodies in a vault are still stored chemical energy, and actually there are microbes that are taking in that energy.

So the microbes come into the vault with the body? Then it could not be sterile.

I'm not "going against" what I said earlier. I assumed you were wanting to know what if nothing was living off of it or consuming it.

If it were sealed forever and ever, but there were microbes in it, the body would slowly be broken down by the microbes. When there was nothing that they could eat left, like let's say just bones, then they too would die. So there would be a skeleton with bits of nasty slime or crust (depending on the moisture in the tomb) with dust and that's it. That would still be stored chemical energy. It could be burned or consumed and release calories (as in the measuring unit for energy, not the same as the calorie that we eat but similar.)

 

[IPorange]

It's worth noting that 90 % of energy is lost between trophic levels (levels in the "food chain") through metabolic processes, i.e. just being alive and regulating a thing's body. That energy is also not destroyed or lost. It is released as body heat or what have you. That heat is long wave radiation, which radiates out.

 

[Oldvol75]

I'm not "going against" what I said earlier. I assumed you were wanting to know what if nothing was living off of it or consuming it.

If it were sealed forever and ever, but there were microbes in it, the body would slowly be broken down by the microbes. When there was nothing that they could eat left, like let's say just bones, then they too would die. So there would be a skeleton with bits of nasty slime or crust (depending on the moisture in the tomb) with dust and that's it. That would still be stored chemical energy. It could be burned or consumed and release calories (as in the measuring unit for energy, not the same as the calorie that we eat but similar.)

But exactly how would we know for sure if it was sealed forever and ever that the skeleton would remain and be covered with these bits of nasty slime or crust? Is our only choice to assume? Because it would not be observable would it?