Religious debate (split from main board)

#1,301
#1,301
oklavol said:
Even as an agnostic, you have to acknowledge the fundamental laws of physics, that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed.

But what about the big question, where did the energy and mass from the big bang come from? It seems to me, to a bigger leap of faith to believe that it came ouf ot a vacuum, then to believe it was created from a higher power or source.
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the fundamental laws of physics as humans understand them.
 
#1,302
#1,302
oklavol said:
Even as an agnostic, you have to acknowledge the fundamental laws of physics, that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed.

But what about the big question, where did the energy and mass from the big bang come from? It seems to me, to a bigger leap of faith to believe that it came ouf ot a vacuum, then to believe it was created from a higher power or source.
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That is where the fundamental disagreement is IMO. I consider it a bigger leap of faith to believe a higher power is behind it all.

Either explanation is mind-boggling though.
 
#1,303
#1,303
rjd970 said:
It was never meant as anything bad toward you personally. I was just trying to illustrate a point. My apologies.
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I believe you are speaking the truth here, so no apology needed.

rjd970 said:
I'm just saying, it is possible be a very moral, caring, and compassionate person without the belief in a higher power. Belief in God does not hold a majority when it comes to being moral. I think you will find a lot of atheists are very moral people, just not for the same reasons as you.
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We've had this discussion before thru PM. And as I said, I'm just going by what I understand the Bible to say:

if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

If I thought this life was all there was, I would party down in whatever I enjoyed the most. (OK, this would be true if I was a lot younger. Very likely that partying down at my age would be more pain than enjoyment.)
 
#1,304
#1,304
oklavol said:
Even as an agnostic, you have to acknowledge the fundamental laws of physics, that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed.

But what about the big question, where did the energy and mass from the big bang come from? It seems to me, to a bigger leap of faith to believe that it came ouf ot a vacuum, then to believe it was created from a higher power or source.
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As a agnostic, I dont "believe" in anything. I have reasonable assumptions (i.g. Laws of physics) and a set of opinions that are open to change and readjustment as my assumptions change.

I don't have the answers to those questions, only theories and possibilities. If you have faith in something then you must justify and prove it. I cant thus I'm agnostic. Can you without using circular logic?
 
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#1,305
#1,305
On a sidenote: Pat Robertson involved in war crimes?

Charles Taylor: Pat Robertson was my man in Washington | Turtle Bay

As reported by Foreign Policy, former Liberian dictator Charles Taylor has implicated U.S. con man Pat Robertson as being complicit in war crimes carried out by Taylor.

Former Liberian President Charles Taylor, testifying in his own war crimes trial today, said that the American conservative evangelist Pat Robertson was awarded a Liberian gold-mining concession in 1999 and subsequently offered to lobby the Bush administration to support his government.

The revelations came in the midst of a U.N.-backed trial of Taylor at The Hague on 11 counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity during Sierra Leone’s 1990s civil war. Taylor is accused of directing a Sierra Leone rebel group, the United Revolutionary Front (RUF), in a campaign aimed at securing access to the country’s diamond mines. The rebel movement stands accused of committing mass atrocities in the late 1990s in the West African country, including the mutilation of thousands of civilians.

The international prosecutors contend that Taylor offered concessions to Western individuals in exchange for lobbying work aimed at enhancing his image in the United States. The prosecution maintains that Taylor also spent $2.6 million on lobbying firms and public relations outfits in the hopes of influencing the policies of former President Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.
 
#1,307
#1,307
Nash270 said:
well im not you, and focusing on oneself will leave yourself very unhappy. Were social animals helping others, and doing good for the community provides alot more fulfilment than worried only about screwing others to get ahead. But your right in one aspect, some religions provide good examples (i.g. Christ) on how to do that, and some people need threats of eternal suffering to stay in line.



You have to say that, to make yourself feel better



thats a two way street, religion provides answers in areas I have no idea. But im not afraid of saying I dont know. Im agnostic because of this, one cannot rule out that a all powerful being didn't create this, but one cant say with certainty one did. How do you answer? Let me guess, God did it and he is the Alpha and Omega



See above

Look Ive tried my entire life to believe. I want to believe! Ive tried, i know life would be soo much easier and in some areas better if it was all true. But i just cant, Ive read the new testament, I love the examples of a good life given by Christ , but on the Big Questions (refering to question asked above) i just cant accept the answers given in the bible. No disrespect to most members here but most of the Old testament and revelations are IMO laughable.
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Like what?
 
#1,308
#1,308
bam15 said:
On a sidenote: Pat Robertson involved in war crimes?

Charles Taylor: Pat Robertson was my man in Washington | Turtle Bay

As reported by Foreign Policy, former Liberian dictator Charles Taylor has implicated U.S. con man Pat Robertson as being complicit in war crimes carried out by Taylor.

Former Liberian President Charles Taylor, testifying in his own war crimes trial today, said that the American conservative evangelist Pat Robertson was awarded a Liberian gold-mining concession in 1999 and subsequently offered to lobby the Bush administration to support his government.

The revelations came in the midst of a U.N.-backed trial of Taylor at The Hague on 11 counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity during Sierra Leone’s 1990s civil war. Taylor is accused of directing a Sierra Leone rebel group, the United Revolutionary Front (RUF), in a campaign aimed at securing access to the country’s diamond mines. The rebel movement stands accused of committing mass atrocities in the late 1990s in the West African country, including the mutilation of thousands of civilians.

The international prosecutors contend that Taylor offered concessions to Western individuals in exchange for lobbying work aimed at enhancing his image in the United States. The prosecution maintains that Taylor also spent $2.6 million on lobbying firms and public relations outfits in the hopes of influencing the policies of former President Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.
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Beautiful, hope he hangs. He has done more to damage christianity in the last 50 years than any other person.
 
#1,313
#1,313
You know they have an Obama blow up doll.

BFH_BarackDoll.jpg
 
#1,317
#1,317
IPorange said:
You are crossing things. If you are going to ridicule people's beliefs, at least know what you are ridiculing.
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The "theories" change every month or so. I just can't keep up. Was it "ooze" that you called the beginnings of life?
 
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#1,319
#1,319
rjd970 said:
It was never meant as anything bad toward you personally. I was just trying to illustrate a point. My apologies.

I'm just saying, it is possible be a very moral, caring, and compassionate person without the belief in a higher power. Belief in God does not hold a majority when it comes to being moral. I think you will find a lot of atheists are very moral people, just not for the same reasons as you.
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and......just where do these "morals" come from.....what would be your "model"
 
#1,323
#1,323
rjd970 said:
Why is that? According to the religious worldview, this is nothing more than a stop on the way to eternal happiness or suffering. After you die is when the real fun begins, no?

To an atheist this is it, make it count and love the ones you care for because after you die you will never see them again. This fact alone makes life much more precious.
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How sad! Atleast faith in Christ says we do have hope of seeing our loved ones again. I don't know if you have children or not, but it would be heart breaking to think if my child died, that was it.
 
#1,325
#1,325
IPorange said:
Clearly you and I will not be able to have an honest discourse. I'm not really sure what you are wanting from me here.
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My original comment was not to you. The second one was since you corrected me.
You are correct we can not have honest discourse. The theories that you spew here are not based in honesty.
 
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