Religious debate (split from main board)

[IPorange]

He was saying that atheists are doing Satan's bidding but the satanists know they are and the atheists don't

File it under the "atheists think they're smart but they're really not" category.

So atheists have a supernatural boss? Of course, now it all makes sense!

I'll await further instructions from my Dark Lord...


Religious people can be scary sometimes.

 

[Snakes on a Wii]

So atheists have a supernatural boss? Of course, now it all makes sense!

I'll await further instructions from my Dark Lord...


Religious people can be scary sometimes.

I once heard it summed up as "You've fallen for the Devil's greatest trick, and that's convincing you that he doesn't exist!"

 

[gsvol]

Amazed to find some know so much about satan and satanism.

I suspect they know even less about that than their sketchy knowledge of Christianity indicates.

I was only making a joke to lighten things up.

Getting back to the subject of judgement day.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."
.....................

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."
.........................

Bottom line is that Christians should live each day as if it might be the last day.

For others, that is their business, until then there is always the possibility of conviction, confession, repentance and salvation for them any day.

The Bible does say that there are those who would not repent even though judgement day should pass, I suppose they will get their just rewards, you can't fault the Lord because some reject His Word that is so freely offered and given.

 

[Snakes on a Wii]

Amazed to find some know so much about satan and satanism.

I suspect they know even less about that than their sketchy knowledge of Christianity indicates.

I was only making a joke to lighten things up.

Getting back to the subject of judgement day.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."
.....................

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."
.........................

Bottom line is that Christians should live each day as if it might be the last day.

For others, that is their business, until then there is always the possibility of conviction, confession, repentance and salvation for them any day.

The Bible does say that there are those who would not repent even though judgement day should pass, I suppose they will get their just rewards, you can't fault the Lord because some reject His Word that is so freely offered and given.

Is what God commands us to do moral because he commands it, or does he command it because it is moral?

 

[Snakes on a Wii]

There's no safe answer to that question. Since it is in god's nature to do only good (omnibenevolence), anything God does or commands would become good. That means that "good" and "evil" are meaningless terms, and if God chose to do so He could command that we murder, rape, and steal from one another and these things would become good. But this makes "omnibenevolent" also meaningless, because since anything God commands is good, so he's omnibenevolent by definition.

This reduces the terms "righteous lord", "merciful god", etc to empty phrases, as all they mean is "God does what he wills". This also implies that God is not wise or rational, since if he reasons his decisions for what is moral he has to use reasons or some external definition for good and evil. But where did those reasons or external definitions come from?

 

[gsvol]

I once heard it summed up as "You've fallen for the Devil's greatest trick, and that's convincing you that he doesn't exist!"

Well he is almost universillay known as 'the great deceiver.'

You may have heard words of wisdom.

Do you have a Bible??

If so read Proverbs 1:7-8.

That is a recurrent theme of the Bible.

And the word fear in verse seven might be better translated from the original text as 'profound respect for' or 'to hold in awe' rather than fear, words don't always translate exactly from one language to another.

After all 'fear not' are the two most repeated words of the Bible.

 

[Snakes on a Wii]

Well he is almost universillay known as 'the great deceiver.'

You may have heard words of wisdom.

Do you have a Bible??

If so read Proverbs 1:7-8.

That is a recurrent theme of the Bible.

And the word fear in verse seven might be better translated from the original text as 'profound respect for' or 'to hold in awe' rather than fear, words don't always translate exactly from one language to another.

After all 'fear not' are the two most repeated words of the Bible.

I'm willing to bet good money that you didn't even read my post and if you did, you didn't spend two seconds thinking about what it meant.

 

[Snakes on a Wii]

Well he is almost universillay known as 'the great deceiver.'

You may have heard words of wisdom.

Do you have a Bible??

If so read Proverbs 1:7-8.

That is a recurrent theme of the Bible.

And the word fear in verse seven might be better translated from the original text as 'profound respect for' or 'to hold in awe' rather than fear, words don't always translate exactly from one language to another.

After all 'fear not' are the two most repeated words of the Bible.

How do you know then that Satan didn't write the Bible to deceive you? I mean he's such a great deceiver and all...

 

[IPorange]

How do you know then that Satan didn't write the Bible to deceive you? I mean he's such a great deceiver and all...

He gets me to pull his finger all the time, the rascal.

 

[gsvol]

The Church of Satan doesn't worship a supernatural force. It's more like a cult of people who worship themselves and "dark desires".

But since that piece of information doesn't fit nicely into your cultural narrative you weave for yourself I doubt you will accept it.

Your own cultural narative leaves a bit to be desired and is shot through with all sorts of holes.

BTW, satanism revers mother earth, gaia, and does recognize satan as it's chief.

That is one reason that some embrace 'environmentalism' with such a religious fanaticism.

I'm willing to bet good money that you didn't even read my post and if you did, you didn't spend two seconds thinking about what it meant.

How much??

So explain what you meant, I read it and understood as best I could. (although you seem fanatically all over the map)

How do you know then that Satan didn't write the Bible to deceive you? I mean he's such a great deceiver and all...

I've contemplated such, just let's say I know, I may not be able to convince you, but I know for a surety.

 

[Snakes on a Wii]

Wow. So let me get this straight.

* Environmentalists are satanists and all new age religions worship Satan.

* The Eurthypro dilemna, which has fascinated theologians and philosophers for millenia, is pointless, and you can't be bothered with your superior wisdom to he troubled with it.

* You cant tell me why you know that Satan didnt write the bible, but you just know. I on the other hand am obviously confounded by Satan.
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[gsvol]

Wow. So let me get this straight.

* Environmentalists are satanists and all new age religions worship Satan.

* The Eurthypro dilemna, which has fascinated theologians and philosophers for millenia, is pointless, and you can't be bothered with your superior wisdom to he troubled with it.

* You cant tell me why you know that Satan didnt write the bible, but you just know. I on the other hand am obviously confounded by Satan.
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*No but they have great influence.

*So what do you say of Aesclepius and his sons Machaon and Podalirios?? Or what do you say of Ophiuchus??

And what do you say about the Magi who appeared at the birth of Jesus, how did they know?

(personally I think of the questions of Greek philosophers that Socrates presents some of the best questions, and agree with him (as our founding fathers did that democracy is an inferior form of government as it puts government on the shoulders of the average man and the average man doesn't know how to govern,) that's why we have a republic.

As for the end of Socrates when he commited suicide for the sake of civilization on the basis of false testimony but was welcomed in other places, I would have told the Athenians to kiss off and gone elsewhere myself.

*Because I throw not my pearls before swine nor repeat that which is Holy before dogs.

I think perhaps you try to entice me into a discussion akin to the conflict between the Guelphs and the Ghibellines?

NO, all that aside, I know because I know Jesus and He has revealed Himself to me and imbued me with power over many things and continues to abide with me, love me, teach me and bless my endeavors, His spirt of comfort is with me daily. (I would that it be so for every man, including you)

He can do that for you if you are willing to trust God and lean not to thine own understandting.

Knock and it shall be opened unto you.

 

[Snakes on a Wii]

*No but they have great influence.

*So what do you say of Aesclepius and his sons Machaon and Podalirios?? Or what do you say of Ophiuchus??

And what do you say about the Magi who appeared at the birth of Jesus, how did they know?

(personally I think of the questions of Greek philosophers that Socrates presents some of the best questions, and agree with him (as our founding fathers did that democracy is an inferior form of government as it puts government on the shoulders of the average man and the average man doesn't know how to govern,) that's why we have a republic.

As for the end of Socrates when he commited suicide for the sake of civilization on the basis of false testimony but was welcomed in other places, I would have told the Athenians to kiss off and gone elsewhere myself.

*Because I throw not my pearls before swine nor repeat that which is Holy before dogs.

I think perhaps you try to entice me into a discussion akin to the conflict between the Guelphs and the Ghibellines?

NO, all that aside, I know because I know Jesus and He has revealed Himself to me and imbued me with power over many things and continues to abide with me, love me, teach me and bless my endeavors, His spirt of comfort is with me daily. (I would that it be so for every man, including you)

He can do that for you if you are willing to trust God and lean not to thine own understandting.

Knock and it shall be opened unto you.

But you said yourself Satan is such a great deceiver, so how do you know that all those thoughts aren't him deceiving you? Once you go down this rabbit hole you can't come back out; we can play this game all day. Your stubborn resistance doesn't invalidate the fact that if we assume that Satan is capable of deceiving anyone anywhere, we cannot know whether or not the Bible is true, or if it is an elaborate lie written by Satan to distract us from the real truth. Your response at this point is little more than sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalala I can't hear you!"

Just like how once we go down the rabbit hole of any conspiracy theory, any evidence or lack thereof against our position is part of the cover-up.

Back to my original question, answer me this:

Is what God commands us to do moral because He commands it, or does He command it because it is moral?

 

[BeecherVol]

But you said yourself Satan is such a great deceiver, so how do you know that all those thoughts aren't him deceiving you? Once you go down this rabbit hole you can't come back out; we can play this game all day. Your stubborn resistance doesn't invalidate the fact that if we assume that Satan is capable of deceiving anyone anywhere, we cannot know whether or not the Bible is true, or if it is an elaborate lie written by Satan to distract us from the real truth. Your response at this point is little more than sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalala I can't hear you!"

Just like how once we go down the rabbit hole of any conspiracy theory, any evidence or lack thereof against our position is part of the cover-up.

Back to my original question, answer me this:

Is what God commands us to do moral because He commands it, or does He command it because it is moral?

Interesting statement.

So Satan wants us to Love Christ, and accept him as God's son, and the only way to salvation. (Which would seperate us from him) I would think Satan would do a better job if he had that much influence on his opponents "word".

 

[ridethelightening]

Interesting statement.

So Satan wants us to Love Christ, and accept him as God's son, and the only way to salvation. (Which would seperate us from him) I would think Satan would do a better job if he had that much influence on his opponents "word".

Haha! I want to deceive you so you will do good.

If one hears the word and chooses not to believe, there is nothing more you can do. We are called to spread the word, not convert.

Wasting your breath if you continue to argue with them
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[IPorange]

He has revealed Himself to me and imbued me with power over many things and continues to abide with me, love me, teach me and bless my endeavors, His spirt of comfort is with me daily.

What sort of powers have you been imbued with? Power over what things?

 

[gsvol]

But you said yourself Satan is such a great deceiver, so how do you know that all those thoughts aren't him deceiving you? Once you go down this rabbit hole you can't come back out; we can play this game all day. Your stubborn resistance doesn't invalidate the fact that if we assume that Satan is capable of deceiving anyone anywhere, we cannot know whether or not the Bible is true, or if it is an elaborate lie written by Satan to distract us from the real truth. Your response at this point is little more than sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalala I can't hear you!"

Just like how once we go down the rabbit hole of any conspiracy theory, any evidence or lack thereof against our position is part of the cover-up.

Back to my original question, answer me this:

Is what God commands us to do moral because He commands it, or does He command it because it is moral?

Read Mathew 4:1-11, particularly focusing on verse 10, that should answer your question (via the Greek philosopher Socrates from 500 years BC), at least to anyone with any ability to think on their own that written word would answer the question of who wrote what, unless perhaps satan is so self loathing that he would cast himself as being such a loser, which he in fact is.

Your last question is just more splitting of hairs and I'll add that your Ockham's Razor could use a bit of sharpening!!

"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate''

You demonstrate by argument and personification the written Word; (Mat 23:24); "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat and swallow a camel."

Over and out, roger that??

ps; Your arrogant demands for answers to old philosophical questions aren't going to get you anywhere, to approach the Lord one must humble one's self. If you want answers to those questions before you seek the Lord, then I suggest you can read the writings of Lao Tsu who more than likely predates Socrates or read 'the art of peace' (the religion that is not a religion) which is fairly recent, another recent book is "Christ the eternal Tao" which also might relieve some of your apparent angst.

What sort of powers have you been imbued with? Power over what things?

I'm writing you an answer in a notebook, I'll post it here or send it pm, depending on what I think when it's finished.

I'll say this much, the yoke of the Lord is not heavy, you don't need to carry everything about all the time, the knowledge that if you keep the faith, the the Lord will supply all your needs in your hour of need, happens to work very well. And too, if you study and gain spiritual knowledge (or more correctly be givein such), then you don't end up being needy all that often.

I don't have a lot of time now, spent last night going to the hosp, stopping for breakfast and coming back home, just got up a little while ago.

Expecting a grandchild but he wasn't ready yet, due date is tommorrow so I don't know exactly what I'll be doing the next day or so.

Those that care can say a prayer for him, his mom and the rest of us, including the health care givers.

God bless and keep you all.

 

[BeecherVol]

Congrats gs:good!:!
Hope and pray that all goes well.

 

[MWR]

.......


Expecting a grandchild but he wasn't ready yet, due date is tommorrow so I don't know exactly what I'll be doing the next day or so.

Those that care can say a prayer for him, his mom and the rest of us, including the health care givers.

God bless and keep you all.

gsvol, "G" for Grandpa.

 

[Snakes on a Wii]

Interesting statement.

So Satan wants us to Love Christ, and accept him as God's son, and the only way to salvation. (Which would seperate us from him) I would think Satan would do a better job if he had that much influence on his opponents "word".

I was implying that the real god would be from some other faith, probably one of the ones that condemns people for worshipping false gods.

 

[IPorange]

I'm writing you an answer in a notebook, I'll post it here or send it pm, depending on what I think when it's finished.

Sounds good.

Congrats on the grand kid.

 

[Snakes on a Wii]

Read Mathew 4:1-11, particularly focusing on verse 10, that should answer your question (via the Greek philosopher Socrates from 500 years BC), at least to anyone with any ability to think on their own that written word would answer the question of who wrote what, unless perhaps satan is so self loathing that he would cast himself as being such a loser, which he in fact is.

Your last question is just more splitting of hairs and I'll add that your Ockham's Razor could use a bit of sharpening!!

Occam's Razor would demand that the God hypothesis be discarded, in the face of evidence that everything in the universe is explainable without a God.

"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate''

You demonstrate by argument and personification the written Word; (Mat 23:24); "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat and swallow a camel."

Over and out, roger that??

I forgot, the old "wise-sounding archaically written bible quote defeats any argument". Blast, my plans are foiled by a 2,000 year old religious text yet again!

ps; Your arrogant demands for answers to old philosophical questions aren't going to get you anywhere, to approach the Lord one must humble one's self. If you want answers to those questions before you seek the Lord, then I suggest you can read the writings of Lao Tsu who more than likely predates Socrates or read 'the art of peace' (the religion that is not a religion) which is fairly recent, another recent book is "Christ the eternal Tao" which also might relieve some of your apparent angst.

Your words are empty and your accusations hollow. You will resonate with those who already see the world through your narrow lens, that all unbelievers are arrogant, that we who doubt the word of one religious text among many are fools. You're right though, my demands will get me no where with someone such as you, who is not concerned with an honest investigation for the truth.

You already "know" the truth. You've "seen the light". You're so sure of yourself that anyone doubting you must be deluded. You and 6+ billion others as well. The fact that your "truths" differ doesn't concern you in the least bit; all the others are wrong and you're right, because you're you.

When someone actually honestly decides to investigate your holy book you can't take it. You keep telling them to go back and read it, because you believe that if anyone has actually read it they will convert. You cannot comprehend the idea that someone might be out there who can read the Bible with an open mind and still not be convinced. The sad part is that you're capable of understanding why people disagree with you, but you refuse to try.

My philosophical questions are not erudite, lofty, ivory tower trivialities, "gnats" to be strained against. They are serious questions about the implications of the existence of God. And because they force you to think, that perhaps the idea of God doesn't make as much sense as you thought, you will dismiss them out of hand. And yet you are the one who calls me arrogant. I am someone who does not claim to know the truth, who does not know whether or not there is a God, someone who is open-minded enough to read about more than one religion, and I am arrogant because of it.

And of course, you are humble. You, who are so confidently assured that you are right that you refuse to listen to criticism, to question your own beliefs and entertain the notion that another person may be right and you might be wrong, are humbler than me. If a Hindu or a Muslim was having this conversation with you do you think that they would see you as humble? There is a certain biblical quote that comes to mind,

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.​

 

[Snakes on a Wii]

And by the way:thumbsup:, congratulations on your grandchild.

 

[gsvol]

Occam's Razor would demand that the God hypothesis be discarded, in the face of evidence that everything in the universe is explainable without a God.

Then explain the universe without God.

BTW, I don't think Ockam's razor would 'demand' that the 'God hypothesis' be discarded, you need to clarify that statement.

I forgot, the old "wise-sounding archaically written bible quote defeats any argument". Blast, my plans are foiled by a 2,000 year old religious text yet again!

And your alternative is? That answered you question, did it not?

Your words are empty and your accusations hollow. You will resonate with those who already see the world through your narrow lens, that all unbelievers are arrogant, that we who doubt the word of one religious text among many are fools. You're right though, my demands will get me no where with someone such as you, who is not concerned with an honest investigation for the truth.

My words are not empty and I accused you of nothing.
You hold the myopic views, not me.
And I am concerned with an honest investigation of the truth whether you think so or not.

You already "know" the truth. You've "seen the light". You're so sure of yourself that anyone doubting you must be deluded. You and 6+ billion others as well. The fact that your "truths" differ doesn't concern you in the least bit; all the others are wrong and you're right, because you're you.

True, I have seen the light and everyone will someday.

I have never expressed anything that would indicate that I am always right ane everyone else is all wrong, I don't know where you come up with that.

When someone actually honestly decides to investigate your holy book you can't take it. You keep telling them to go back and read it, because you believe that if anyone has actually read it they will convert. You cannot comprehend the idea that someone might be out there who can read the Bible with an open mind and still not be convinced. The sad part is that you're capable of understanding why people disagree with you, but you refuse to try.

What have you foundwrong with my "Holy book"?

I don't think that anyone who reads the Bible will convert, I believe you can read it all you want and understand none of it if you aren't given the understanding of it.

I can understand why don't believe.

I doubt you read what I suggested but if you had then it would have answered your question.

My philosophical questions are not erudite, lofty, ivory tower trivialities, "gnats" to be strained against. They are serious questions about the implications of the existence of God. And because they force you to think, that perhaps the idea of God doesn't make as much sense as you thought, you will dismiss them out of hand. And yet you are the one who calls me arrogant. I am someone who does not claim to know the truth, who does not know whether or not there is a God, someone who is open-minded enough to read about more than one religion, and I am arrogant because of it.

I didn't dismiss anything out of hand, I too have read much about most all religions.

The diffrerence is I know there is God.

May you someday come to the same knowledge.

And of course, you are humble. You, who are so confidently assured that you are right that you refuse to listen to criticism, to question your own beliefs and entertain the notion that another person may be right and you might be wrong, are humbler than me. If a Hindu or a Muslim was having this conversation with you do you think that they would see you as humble? There is a certain biblical quote that comes to mind,

What criticism have I not listened to??

I don't care so much for how others view me as I care for how I am. Take it or leave it, no skin off my nose.

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.​

I leave judgement unto judgement day and to the One who is able to judge as my previous posts have indicated if you care to read carefully.

And by the way:thumbsup:, congratulations on your grandchild.

Well thanks, but it ain't happened just yet.

 

[Gramps]

GS. Congrats on the grandbaby,
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