Rick Barnes discussion [merged]

#2,051
#2,051
mr.checkerboards said:
He had not yet, but under Pearl TN was a program on the rise and it felt like it was going to continue to rise. If seen some of the Barnes lovers ask why fans think TN can get to a FF and that's why, up until the very end the belief was that Pearl would break through. Under Barnes the program is already peaked and we are supposed to sit here while the Barnes lovers tell us we are lucky to make the tournament? No give us a coach that we can believe in that he will break the ceiling, Barnes isn't it. Before you ask who are you going to get, give me someone young who has shown a lot of potential and leave them alone for a bit. I posted a small list somewhere yesterday, but I really think we need to keep Wes Miller from UNCG in our sight. Or whoever it is give them 5 years and let's see where we are.
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We shouldn't have to give someone 5 years after what Barnes has done. That's insane.
 
#2,053
#2,053
mr.checkerboards said:
TN has made the NCG once in its history, but yet fans think they can get back? Why should we lower our expectations for basketball?
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Well to be fair, football is a shorter season without a huge ass single elimination tournament. Sure we can say the CFP is a tournament, but even then it's just 2 games and they are a week apart.

March Madness is one of the toughest things to win in all of sports and it's why so few coaches have done it.
 
#2,054
#2,054
At this point all I want is an assistant coach who maybe Barnes will listen to about changing his offensive philosophy to a more modern style.

Unfortunately I think Barnes is far too stubborn to actually listen and make the changes needed for us to really break through, no matter what assistant comes in.

It certainly could be worse. But with the way Barnes coaches it just seems to really put a ceiling on what we’re able to accomplish.

You give Nate Oats or Musselman the talent this years squad had and I don’t think they’re one and done and getting blown out in the first round of the tournament.

Just listen to Barnes’ postgame presser after the Oregon state loss. Shows how out of touch he is with the reality of how to win in modern basketball. If you listen to him you’d just think the guys gotta play harder and just be more locked in (and always play through the post whether we have a legitimate post presence or not). He doesnt even understand the problems this team has.

To think he’ll come back with a completely different philosophy next year when he’s on year 30 something of doing things the same way he’s always done it is pretty asinine. Can’t explain how frustrating it is because we have, had, and will have good talent. But I’ll always support the guys playing no matter what
 
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#2,055
#2,055
@Lurker
"I totally agree that it is desirable, natural and reasonable to have the goal of a national championship every season. On the other hand, it is illogical and unreasonable to consistently blame a team's failure to achieve the desired goal of a national championship on alleged incompetency and lack of effort the way some fans do around here.

Barnes is not a perfect coach, but he's a hell of a lot better than anyone I have seen around Knoxville for the last 45 years -- including St. Bruce, the deceiver, who I thought was "the guy" until he went off the rails."

So my question is, if the goal is an EE? How many times does a coach get to not reach said goal before you move on? We know the programs ceiling is an EE because its been, there I dont care how said coaches got there, if Barnes made it I dont care how he got there, he could beat 4 16 seeds for all i care. But why keep a coach around, whos ceiling isnt as high as the programs?
 
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#2,056
#2,056
@bleedingTNorange
"In that scenario...

Barnes last 4 season: 4 NCAAT, 2S16, 1R32, 1R64...5-4 record

Pearl’s last 4 season: 4NCAAT, 1E8, 1S16, 2R64...5-4 record


Yet Pearl deserves a statue and had fans hopeful and Barnes would be same ole same ole and time to move on?"

The difference is age longevity and track record. Barnes is 66 now and hasnt been past the sweet 16 since 07. He has a 30 year track record that shows what he is in March.
Pearl was 53 when he took TN to the EE. Since then he has been to a FF. TN was the first major program he had been at and nobody really knew what his ceiling was. We know now its a FF (as of now). Again like I told the other poster, he got there I dont care how he got there or who he beat.
 
#2,057
#2,057
@VolGee4
"We shouldn't have to give someone 5 years after what Barnes has done. That's insane"
5 years to make an EE?

So the same posters who want us to give Barnes all the time in the world and are happy to make the tourney, will want to run a new coach off if he doesnt make an EE sooner? How does that make sense when Barnes has a 30 year track record and we know what his ceiling is?
 
#2,058
#2,058
@MoCo_Vol
"Well to be fair, football is a shorter season without a huge ass single elimination tournament. Sure we can say the CFP is a tournament, but even then it's just 2 games and they are a week apart.

March Madness is one of the toughest things to win in all of sports and it's why so few coaches have done it."

Right im not arguing its not hard to win. But im also not arguing about winning it right now? Pearl made an EE in 6 years, so can we not reasonably think, if Barnes is actually as good of a coach that some think he is he would not be able to match that?
 
#2,059
#2,059
jmva1 said:
At this point all I want is an assistant coach who maybe Barnes will listen to about changing his offensive philosophy to a more modern style.

Unfortunately I think Barnes is far too stubborn to actually listen and make the changes needed for us to really break through, no matter what assistant comes in.

It certainly could be worse. But with the way Barnes coaches it just seems to really put a ceiling on what we’re able to accomplish.

You give Nate Oats or Musselman the talent this years squad had and I don’t think they’re one and done and getting blown out in the first round of the tournament.

Just listen to Barnes’ postgame presser after the Oregon state loss. Shows how out of touch he is with the reality of how to win in modern basketball. If you listen to him you’d just think the guys gotta play harder and just be more locked in (and always play through the post whether we have a legitimate post presence or not). He doesnt even understand the problems this team has.

To think he’ll come back with a completely different philosophy next year when he’s on year 30 something of doing things the same way he’s always done it is pretty asinine. Can’t explain how frustrating it is because we have, had, and will have good talent. But I’ll always support the guys playing no matter what
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Now that I have seen some video highlights of the 2018/2019 teams and watched more of the NCAAT, I actually agree with him about the post. I always said that Fulkerson didn't need to score a bunch of points for us but needed to be someone to use as a threat in the post to space the floor. Watching Grant Williams seal off defenders on the block is a reminder of how a post player can take over. We don't need seven footers, but just having someone who can get you a bucket is important.

Maybe Oats and Musselman do get more space for players, but Oats has 5 guys shooting 37% or better from 3. We have 2. I also saw missed open shots our last 2 games. Not saying that the offense can't be tweaked, but I think it's somewhere in the middle of being "out of date" to being fine.
 
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#2,060
#2,060
mr.checkerboards said:
@bleedingTNorange
"In that scenario...

Barnes last 4 season: 4 NCAAT, 2S16, 1R32, 1R64...5-4 record

Pearl’s last 4 season: 4NCAAT, 1E8, 1S16, 2R64...5-4 record


Yet Pearl deserves a statue and had fans hopeful and Barnes would be same ole same ole and time to move on?"

The difference is age longevity and track record. Barnes is 66 now and hasnt been past the sweet 16 since 07. He has a 30 year track record that shows what he is in March.
Pearl was 53 when he took TN to the EE. Since then he has been to a FF. TN was the first major program he had been at and nobody really knew what his ceiling was. We know now its a FF (as of now). Again like I told the other poster, he got there I dont care how he got there or who he beat.
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Him making a FF was years after his time here, so that’s a moot point, you can’t say that in 2008 you knew that was going to happen. The point is that that 4 year run by Pearl at Tennessee according to you gave fans hope and optimism and was great results...yet almost an identical 4 year run from Barnes and he should be fired...not much logic there.
 
#2,061
#2,061
mr.checkerboards said:
@VolGee4
"We shouldn't have to give someone 5 years after what Barnes has done. That's insane"
5 years to make an EE?

So the same posters who want us to give Barnes all the time in the world and are happy to make the tourney, will want to run a new coach off if he doesnt make an EE sooner? How does that make sense when Barnes has a 30 year track record and we know what his ceiling is?
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What’s his ceiling? F4? Or those don’t count? E8? You can’t say 30 years but then exclude accomplishment in that span?
 
#2,062
#2,062
mr.checkerboards said:
@VolGee4
"We shouldn't have to give someone 5 years after what Barnes has done. That's insane"
5 years to make an EE?

So the same posters who want us to give Barnes all the time in the world and are happy to make the tourney, will want to run a new coach off if he doesnt make an EE sooner? How does that make sense when Barnes has a 30 year track record and we know what his ceiling is?
Click to expand...

Your first error is pegging me for automatically expecting an EE. I just don't say it's an EE or your fired. Kind of a dumb metric, considering that our school has one in it's history, and it wasn't even our best team of all-time. Barnes has made a FF, so technically his ceiling is a FF.

Secondly, the program that Barnes inherited will not be the same program that a new coach inherits. There is a huge difference.
 
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#2,063
#2,063
Brick_By_Brick said:
As someone whose UT basketball fandom began during the early Wade Houston era, I quite like regularly making the NCAAT, being ranked #1 for a good portion of a season, and fishing in the 5* prospect waters. But maybe that's just me.

Now, it's also fair to say Barnes deserves some criticism, as this season was somewhat of a disappointment, and to move forward Barnes needs to make roster/philosophy changes, but if you're complaining about the overall job Barnes has done in Knoxville (even just the past few years), you're delusional.
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This is the main thing that we need to remember. Sure, Barnes has his areas that could be better, but overall, he is running a program that we should be extremely proud of.

As others have said, great post!
 
#2,064
#2,064
VolGee4 said:
Now that I have seen some video highlights of the 2018/2019 teams and watched more of the NCAAT, I actually agree with him about the post. I always said that Fulkerson didn't need to score a bunch of points for us but needed to be someone to use as a threat in the post to space the floor. Watching Grant Williams seal off defenders on the block is a reminder of how a post player can take over. We don't need seven footers, but just having someone who can get you a bucket is important.

Maybe Oats and Musselman do get more space for players, but Oats has 5 guys shooting 37% or better from 3. We have 2. I also saw missed open shots our last 2 games. Not saying that the offense can't be tweaked, but I think it's somewhere in the middle of being "out of date" to being fine.
Click to expand...

It’s not that I’m against playing through the post. It’s the insistence on playing through the post when you don’t have the personnel to that frustrates me
 
#2,065
#2,065
mr.checkerboards said:
@MoCo_Vol
"Well to be fair, football is a shorter season without a huge ass single elimination tournament. Sure we can say the CFP is a tournament, but even then it's just 2 games and they are a week apart.

March Madness is one of the toughest things to win in all of sports and it's why so few coaches have done it."

Right im not arguing its not hard to win. But im also not arguing about winning it right now? Pearl made an EE in 6 years, so can we not reasonably think, if Barnes is actually as good of a coach that some think he is he would not be able to match that?
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Something tells me your stance on Barnes wouldn’t be much different if the red swallowed his whistle and we had beaten Purdue and then lost the next game and everything else the same.
 
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#2,066
#2,066
jmva1 said:
It’s not that I’m against playing through the post. It’s the insistence on playing through the post when you don’t have the personnel to that frustrates me
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Yea, I can see that. But we didn't have Fulky the last 2 games and you couldn't predict that. But, Keon Johnson is not going to be a "fire up 10 three's a game" kind of player, and Bailey and Vescovi were inconsistent shooters.
 
#2,067
#2,067
jmva1 said:
It’s not that I’m against playing through the post. It’s the insistence on playing through the post when you don’t have the personnel to that frustrates me
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And maybe that’s a fair criticism of Barnes, maybe unwilling to adapt or comfortable enough to a different style, if that’s the case then he needs to make sure he continuously has quality post players. With that said, he/along with this whole fan base, assumed that we were getting a similar Fulky to what we saw in SEC play the previous year...which was a dominating post player.
 
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#2,068
#2,068
We've basically had two successful coaches since I've been alive and I'm 43. But for some reason fans don't appreciate one of them almost like Tennessee had always been a great basketball program.
 
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#2,069
#2,069
bleedingTNorange said:
With that said, he/along with this whole fan base, assumed that we were getting a similar Fulky to what we saw in SEC play the previous year...which was a dominating post player.
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This right here is the root of our entire season and the disappointing finish. I think we would all be much more pleased if last year’s Fulky had showed up and it would have completely changed the dynamic of the team and the season
 
#2,070
#2,070
bleedingTNorange said:
What’s his ceiling? F4? Or those don’t count? E8? You can’t say 30 years but then exclude accomplishment in that span?
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Who's ceiling Barnes? Its a S16. The point of pointing out his 30 year career is because of his age and style. The game has evolved and Barnes has not. I think we can both agree that the game has changed a lot since the 07 season. Pearls teams have changed with it, Barnes still wants to play 1990's basketball.
 
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#2,071
#2,071
VolGee4 said:
Your first error is pegging me for automatically expecting an EE. I just don't say it's an EE or your fired. Kind of a dumb metric, considering that our school has one in it's history, and it wasn't even our best team of all-time. Barnes has made a FF, so technically his ceiling is a FF.

Secondly, the program that Barnes inherited will not be the same program that a new coach inherits. There is a huge difference.
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No, I just dont understand not giving a new coach 5 years. Im talking 5 years for a run in the tourney, 5 years for a championship in Nashville, 5 years for an outright reg season title. Not 5 years to be good.
 
#2,072
#2,072
mr.checkerboards said:
Who's ceiling Barnes? Its a S16. The point of pointing out his 30 year career is because of his age and style. The game has evolved and Barnes has not. I think we can both agree that the game has changed a lot since the 07 season. Pearls teams have changed with it, Barnes still wants to play 1990's basketball.
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Did you notice that Pearl's teams played the same flex offense every year? They'd run nearly the same flex play every time down the court, then a ball screen at 10 on the shot clock half the time when they couldn't find an opening running the same play they did the last time down the floor. Do you know what Auburn is running now? It's still the flex! Both coaches have better or worse offensive performance based on the abilities of the players that they recruit, which isn't a huge revelation. If you like Pearl's offense more you're fond of one old offense rather than another.
 
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#2,073
#2,073
kckempf said:
Did you notice that Pearl's teams played the same flex offense every year? They'd run nearly the same flex play every time down the court, then a ball screen at 10 on the shot clock half the time when they couldn't find an opening running the same play they did the last time down the floor. Do you know what Auburn is running now? It's still the flex! Both coaches have better or worse offensive performance based on the abilities of the players that they recruit, which isn't a huge revelation. If you like Pearl's offense more you're fond of one old offense rather than another.
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One is more in tune with how today's game is played and one isnt.
 
#2,075
#2,075
mr.checkerboards said:
Who's ceiling Barnes? Its a S16. The point of pointing out his 30 year career is because of his age and style. The game has evolved and Barnes has not. I think we can both agree that the game has changed a lot since the 07 season. Pearls teams have changed with it, Barnes still wants to play 1990's basketball.
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I don’t think it’s fair to say his ceiling is a S16. He was a cat’s whisker away from an E8 two years ago. If you can get a sweet 16 game to OT, you are capable of going to the elite eight

Of course he’s made a Final Four before too but I assume your rebuttal to that was that it was so long ago and now that the game has passed him by he could never make it back, so I saved us some time and skipped past that part 😂

And for what it’s worth I’ve been saying the offense needs to change since long before the tourney. I just think it’s possible to criticize the offense while still recognize the great program (re)building job that has been done
 
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