Roe vs Wade Overturned

#3,426
#3,426
volfanhill said:
The only protections for "all" are those outlined by the constitution. Everything else up to the state. So my position in gay marriage, for example, is that the feds shouldn't be involved in marriage. States can do what they want with it. Now I also believe gov has no business in marriage at all.
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I think people should be treated equally. I also think the state should have no business in marriage at all, but since they do, everyone should be afforded the same benefits, etc.
 
#3,428
#3,428
zeppelin128 said:
States should, and do, largely manage their own affairs. But some things should transcend "state's rights", like equality and equal rights. Should states be allowed to discriminate against any group they wish?
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I like this. You’re starting to understand the constitution which obviously puts specific rights above those of the state’s right to self govern. Abortion is not one of them.

You also seem to be misunderstanding the words “equal rights”. It doesn’t mean if they smoke weed in Colorado that you get to smoke weed in Tennessee. It means if you’re in Colorado you’re treated the same as anyone else in that jurisdiction
 
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#3,429
#3,429
zeppelin128 said:
I think people should be treated equally. I also think the state should have no business in marriage at all, but since they do, everyone should be afforded the same benefits, etc.
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The Feds could easily recognize civil unions/contracts for benefit/tax purposes and stay out of state affairs.
 
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#3,432
#3,432
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#3,434
#3,434
Septic said:
No.

But then again, churches shouldn't be able to skirt taxes and openly campaign for pro life politicians while also receiving gobs of PPP cash from the taxpayer coffers either.
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Had me until the PPP loan part. Churches employ people. The gov shut them down. Instead of massive layoffs, the gov asked businesses (a church still operates as a business) to take PPP to pay employees. Why shouldn't they have taken the PPP money to pay employees?
 
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#3,435
#3,435
utvols88 said:
Had me until the PPP loan part. Churches employ people. The gov shut them down. Instead of massive layoffs, the gov asked businesses (a church still operates as a business) to take PPP to pay employees. Why shouldn't they have taken the PPP money to pay employees?
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I didn't say they shouldn't have taken it, I just don't think businesses that don't pay taxes should be bailed out by taxpayer money. Full stop.

Also, massive layoffs from churches, was that the option? 😂 Did Venmo and Zelle stop working during the covid shutdowns? Paritioners could tithe? Is salvation only for sale in person?
 
#3,436
#3,436
Septic said:
I didn't say they shouldn't have taken it, I just don't think businesses that don't pay taxes should be bailed out by taxpayer money. Full stop.

Also, massive layoffs from churches, was that the option? 😂 Did Venmo and Zelle stop working during the covid shutdowns? Paritioners could tithe? Is salvation only for sale in person?
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Massive layoffs from businesses in general. Church is still run like a business. Donations tend to happen more in person, yes. The employees of the business do pay taxes. The money is for payroll. The government shut them down. Not the free market.
 
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#3,437
#3,437
Septic said:
I didn't say they shouldn't have taken it, I just don't think businesses that don't pay taxes should be bailed out by taxpayer money. Full stop.

Also, massive layoffs from churches, was that the option? 😂 Did Venmo and Zelle stop working during the covid shutdowns? Paritioners could tithe? Is salvation only for sale in person?
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Churches pay taxes on their business ventures. You’re confusing that with donations. Their donations are not taxable, nor should they be. Not charitable donations should be taxed
 
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#3,438
#3,438
utvols88 said:
Massive layoffs from businesses in general. Church is still run like a business. Donations tend to happen more in person, yes. The employees of the business do pay taxes. The money is for payroll. The government shut them down. Not the free market.
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You're desperate to equivocate tax dollars being justifiably given to a "business" that doesn't pay taxes while often and broadly looking to impart a political agenda. None of your reasons for a government handout are convincing, sorry.

F churches. Selling salvation is actually less of a public good than Planned Parenthoods low cost healthcare services and the right is losing thier minds that they may try and influence politics.

Neither are sacred cows, they can both die.
 
#3,439
#3,439
Septic said:
Lol at "stop being dumbass." Be sure to refer back to this the next time you want to rant about socialism or someone suckling on the government teat.

You're desperate to equivocate tax dollars being justifiably given to a "business" that doesn't pay taxes while often and broadly looking to impart a political agenda. None of your reasons for a government handout are convincing, sorry.

F churches. Selling salvation is actually less of a public good than Planned Parenthoods low cost healthcare services and the right is losing thier minds that they may try and influence politics.

Neither are sacred cows, they can both die.
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The employees pay taxes. The PPP loans are for the employees to maintain the usual income. You are arguing taxed citizens should have been laid off even though the government required them to shut down because churches are exempt from some taxes(not all). Churches aren't suckling on the govt teat by getting a ppp loan. THEY WERE SHUT DOWN BY THE GOVT

No one would argue against planned parenthood getting a ppp loan during a shut down.
 
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#3,440
#3,440
utvols88 said:
The employees pay taxes. The PPP loans are for the employees to maintain the usual income. You are arguing taxed citizens should have been laid off even though the government required them to shut down because churches are exempt from some taxes(not all). Churches aren't suckling on the govt teat by getting a ppp loan. THEY WERE SHUT DOWN BY THE GOVT

No one would argue against planned parenthood getting a ppp loan during a shut down.
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Weird how the PPP loans werent given to the employees, if I recall they were given to businesses. I'm arguing businesses that aren't federally taxed shouldn't get taxpayer money for any reason, something you keep avoiding acknowledging. You've also failed to recognize that shutdowns were State initiated, not Federal.

Stop trying to reframe the argument to make it about tax paying employees, that doesn't make it more defensible.

You also glossed over the fact that tithing could have easily occurred during the shutdowns, like I said - Zelle and Venmo never stopped working. The service they are selling doesn't require you to be present.

The whole point is that churches abuse their tax exempt status and use their influence and money to push partisan agendas. Belly aching about Planned Parenthood using tax dollars to do it too and not recognizing the issues with churches is laughable - a little equity in the intellectual honesty of recognizing that both are wrong would go a long way.
 
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#3,441
#3,441
Septic said:
Weird how the PPP loans werent given to the employees, if I recall they were given to businesses. I'm arguing businesses that aren't federally taxed shouldn't get taxpayer money for any reason, something you keep avoiding acknowledging. You've also failed to recognize that shutdowns were State initiated, not Federal.

Stop trying to reframe the argument to make it about tax paying employees, that doesn't make it more defensible.

You also glossed over the fact that tithing could have easily occurred during the shutdowns, like I said - Zelle and Venmo never stopped working. The service they are selling doesn't require you to be present.

The whole point is that churches abuse their tax exempt status and use their influence and money to push partisan agendas. Belly aching about Planned Parenthood using tax dollars to do it too and not recognizing the issues with churches is laughable - a little equity in the intellectual honesty of recognizing that both are wrong would go a long way.
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The government shut down business. We would probably agree on any other examples. Planned Parenthood receiving tax payer money as a consistent endowment is wrong. Churches too.

Using PPP was simply a poor example to illustrate that point because the money from gov to planned parenthood vs PPP money is not the same thing at all. Planned parenthood receiving PPP money is warranted despite the fact that I am pro life because the reason it is distributed is gov action, not free market. Being able to use Venmo is inconsequential to your argument as you are arguing "for any reason" as emphasized by you.

This entire discussion is rich from someone who mentions intellectual honesty.
 
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#3,442
#3,442
utvols88 said:
The government shut down business. We would probably agree on any other examples. Planned Parenthood receiving tax payer money as a consistent endowment is wrong. Churches too.

Using PPP was simply a poor example to illustrate that point because the money from gov to planned parenthood vs PPP money is not the same thing at all. Planned parenthood receiving PPP money is warranted despite the fact that I am pro life because the reason it is distributed is gov action, not free market. Being able to use Venmo is inconsequential to your argument as you are arguing "for any reason" as emphasized by you.

This entire discussion is rich from someone who mentions intellectual honesty.
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My dig about PPP money was simply an adjunct to the point that churches abuse their tax exempt status by inserting themselves into politics as PP apparently is. It wasn't an "example", though it must have grated you or touched a nerve enough for you to lean in. Churches didn't need or deserve PPP, they need a better product to sell. Purchasing salvation shouldn't be dependent on being able to physically drop a few shekels into an offering plate. And a business that depends on that isn't much of a business to begin with.

Personally, I'd like to see the abortion services of PP and churches die on the vine. Neither side wants to subsidize the other with tax dollars, I don't want to subsidize either. Abortion and organized religion is something I find equally worthless.
 
#3,443
#3,443
Septic said:
My dig about PPP money was simply an adjunct to the point that churches abuse their tax exempt status by inserting themselves into politics as PP apparently is. It wasn't an "example", though it must have grated you or touched a nerve enough for you to lean in. Churches didn't need or deserve PPP, they need a better product to sell. Purchasing salvation shouldn't be dependent on being able to physically drop a few shekels into an offering plate. And a business that depends on that isn't much of a business to begin with.

Personally, I'd like to see the abortion services of PP and churches die on the vine. Neither side wants to subsidize the other with tax dollars, I don't want to subsidize either. Abortion and organized religion is something I find equally worthless.
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So you think BLM should also lose their tax exempt status?
 
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#3,444
#3,444
Septic said:
My dig about PPP money was simply an adjunct to the point that churches abuse their tax exempt status by inserting themselves into politics as PP apparently is. It wasn't an "example", though it must have grated you or touched a nerve enough for you to lean in. Churches didn't need or deserve PPP, they need a better product to sell. Purchasing salvation shouldn't be dependent on being able to physically drop a few shekels into an offering plate. And a business that depends on that isn't much of a business to begin with.

Personally, I'd like to see the abortion services of PP and churches die on the vine. Neither side wants to subsidize the other with tax dollars, I don't want to subsidize either. Abortion and organized religion is something I find equally worthless.
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It touched a nerve because it was an incredibly stupid point. I'm sure you think it's because of it being a church but unfortunately that would be another miserable fail by you.

We agree that planned parenthood or the church shouldn't be subsidized by the taxpayer. PPP isn't subsidizing in the same sense and both should be eligible for it due to the gov shutting them down. It's pretty simple.
 
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#3,445
#3,445
utvols88 said:
It touched a nerve because it was an incredibly stupid point. I'm sure you think it's because of it being a church but unfortunately that would be another miserable fail by you.

We agree that planned parenthood or the church shouldn't be subsidized by the taxpayer. PPP isn't subsidizing in the same sense and both should be eligible for it due to the gov shutting them down. It's pretty simple.
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I think it boils down to you feeling like churches deserved a federal handout despite not being shutdown by the feds or ever contributing to the coffers from which the money came. Very socialist of you. There's a difference and distinction that you keep failing to navigate.

Churches didn't deserve PPP money. It's pretty simple.
 
#3,446
#3,446
Septic said:
I think it boils down to you feeling like churches deserved a federal handout despite not being shutdown by the feds or ever contributing to the coffers from which the money came. Very socialist of you. There's a difference and distinction that you keep failing to navigate.

Churches didn't deserve PPP money. It's pretty simple.
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Under your definition, no one was shut down by the feds, therefore, no one deserved PPP money and it has nothing to do with the church or planned parenthood.
 
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#3,447
#3,447
utvols88 said:
Under your definition, no one was shut down by the feds, therefore, no one deserved PPP money and it has nothing to do with the church or planned parenthood.
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No. Lots of businesses "deserved" PPP relief, specifically those businesses that actually paid taxes.

You keep trying to conflate state mandated shutdowns with being somehow owed federal tax handouts, it's a stupid argument.
 
#3,448
#3,448
Septic said:
No. Lots of businesses "deserved" PPP relief, specifically those businesses that actually paid taxes.

You keep trying to conflate state mandated shutdowns with being somehow owed federal tax handouts, it's a stupid argument.
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Ppp was designed to help businesses pay employees and operational costs due to operational limitations or shutdowns by the government. Legislatures passed a bill to that effect because under the federal leadership, all states shutdown or limited operations.

What does paying taxes have to do with reimbursement for shut down or limited operations? The 4th amendment does not allow the church or any property to be limited or shutdown in operation.

You are making an incoherent argument. On one hand it's not the federal gov that shut things down but then you also say "lots of businesses" deserved PPP. Either the feds had liability in the shutdowns or they didn't. You can't have both. Being tax exempt by law, does not mean the business has less rights than others. Talk about stupid.
 
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