Roe vs Wade Overturned

#2,004
#2,004
ACvol3 said:
Religion or no religion… can’t we agree that murder is wrong? People are making this way more complicated than it needs to be
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Pro-choice folks don't consider the unborn to be a human being; they don't consider it to be a murder, hence why this topic is so controversial. I disagree with them, but that is the key point of debate.
 
#2,006
#2,006
05_never_again said:
Pro-choice folks don't consider the unborn to be a human being; they don't consider it to be a murder, hence why this topic is so controversial. I disagree with them, but that is the key point of debate.
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You know what others are thinking? Who are you, Gibson Praise? Many pro-choice males are against abortion, but don't believe it's their right to decide for a woman. That's my stance anyway
 
#2,007
#2,007
ACvol3 said:
So that’s how they sleep.. gotcha
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But even as a pro-life person, I will admit that a fetus is something different than a person living outside the womb. I happen to believe that entity has rights that are protected, meaning that the woman, even though it is inside her body, cannot just kill it.
 
#2,008
#2,008
05_never_again said:
But even as a pro-life person, I will admit that a fetus is something different than a person living outside the womb. I happen to believe that entity has rights that are protected, meaning that the woman, even though it is inside her body, cannot just kill it.
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Interesting. Seems there are all kinds of levels diff ppl have
 
#2,009
#2,009
ACvol3 said:
Religion or no religion… can’t we agree that murder is wrong? People are making this way more complicated than it needs to be
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It’s also morally wrong to condemn an unwanted child to a life of abuse and misery. It doesn’t matter if it’s with biological parents/relatives or as an adoptee or foster child. The religious right attempts to occupy a moral high ground here but it can’t. “All life is precious” as long as your tax dollars aren’t being used to help provide a better life.
 
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#2,010
#2,010
TRUEFANVol said:
You know what others are thinking? Who are you, Gibson Praise? Many pro-choice males are against abortion, but don't believe it's their right to decide for a woman. That's my stance anyway
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You seem to be strangely obsessed with identity. Not being pro choice, doesn’t prohibit one from understanding their argument or thoughts on the topic.

Are you a pedophile, rapist, murderer, or victim of? If not, what right do you have to oppose such?
 
#2,011
#2,011
TRUEFANVol said:
You know what others are thinking? Who are you, Gibson Praise? Many pro-choice males are against abortion, but don't believe it's their right to decide for a woman. That's my stance anyway
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You're saying that there are pro-choice people out there who would admit that abortion is murder? That's...interesting.

As far as I know, they all claim that it is not murder. That's how they rationalize it. That'd be quite something for a pro-choicer to say "Yeah, it's murder, but the woman should be allowed commit one if she doesn't want the child." I've never heard any of them claim that.
 
#2,012
#2,012
05_never_again said:
You're saying that there are pro-choice people out there who would admit that abortion is murder? That's...interesting.

As far as I know, they all claim that it is not murder. That's how they rationalize it. That'd be quite something for a pro-choicer to say "Yeah, it's murder, but the woman should be allowed to do it." I've never heard any of them claim that.
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There is a new logic that has been growing in the pro-choice crowd. Here is my most charitable interpretation of this new logic:

Even if a fetus after the heart beats may be considered a living human, that does not mean a woman should be obligated to give her body to the living entity to use for the duration of the pregnancy.

I take their logic as meaning that a woman's bodily autonomy trumps the right of the fetus to live. In this line of reasoning, the living human fetus is regarded as a (living) parasite. I think there are a lot of problems with this line of reasoning, but it seems to be an emerging talking point among the pro-choice crowd.
 
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#2,014
#2,014
SamRebel35 said:
There is a new logic that has been growing in the pro-choice crowd. Here is my most charitable interpretation of this new logic:

Even if a fetus after the heart beats may be considered a living human, that does not mean a woman should be obligated to give her body to the living entity to use for the duration of the pregnancy.

I take their logic as meaning that a woman's bodily autonomy trumps the right of the fetus to live. In this line of reasoning, the living human fetus is regarded as a (living) parasite. I think there are a lot of problems with this line of reasoning, but it seems to be an emerging talking point among the pro-choice crowd.
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I've seen the parasitic concept discussed in the PF.
 
#2,015
#2,015
SamRebel35 said:
There is a new logic that has been growing in the pro-choice crowd. Here is my most charitable interpretation of this new logic:

Even if a fetus after the heart beats may be considered a living human, that does not mean a woman should be obligated to give her body to the living entity to use for the duration of the pregnancy.

I take their logic as meaning that a woman's bodily autonomy trumps the right of the fetus to live. In this line of reasoning, the living human fetus is regarded as a (living) parasite. I think there are a lot of problems with this line of reasoning, but it seems to be an emerging talking point among the pro-choice crowd.
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I haven't heard this (yet), but if they are running this argument it is terrible for them. The moment they admit that a fetus is a living human, or might be a living human, I don't see how they win the debate. Every pro-choice person I've come across, or every pro-choice argument I've heard, goes out of their way to claim that the fetus is not human, therefore it is not entitled to any rights, therefore the woman can do with it as she wishes. I have heard the abortion procedure itself likened to an appendectomy by pro-choicers. I disagree, but if you don't consider the fetus to be human (yet), then the logic is internally consistent.

If your argument claims or even just entertains the possibility that it is human, or it might be entitled to some kind of rights, then you really can't help but fall on the pro-life side.
 
#2,016
#2,016
ClearwaterVol said:
That doesn't even move the needle. I don't see abortion as murder, up to a point.
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Agreed. I think everyone agrees on that. At some point, it does become murder. When that point is, is the entire debate and there’s numerous markers you could use to establish that.

Which is more reason why allowing more flexibility in abortion laws is a better solution than top down government
 
#2,018
#2,018
MG1968 said:
It’s also morally wrong to condemn an unwanted child to a life of abuse and misery. It doesn’t matter if it’s with biological parents/relatives or as an adoptee or foster child. The religious right attempts to occupy a moral high ground here but it can’t. “All life is precious” as long as your tax dollars aren’t being used to help provide a better life.
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One thing I found interesting is now all of the pro-life supporters saying they will focus on legislation, etc. to provide for mothers and the "saved" children. No statement could be more telling that the choices previously were have a kid and fend for yourself or get an abortion. Life started at conception and ended at birth for taking care of those kids. We will see how it works going forward, but I am not optimistic.
 
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#2,019
#2,019
SamRebel35 said:
There is a new logic that has been growing in the pro-choice crowd. Here is my most charitable interpretation of this new logic:

Even if a fetus after the heart beats may be considered a living human, that does not mean a woman should be obligated to give her body to the living entity to use for the duration of the pregnancy.

I take their logic as meaning that a woman's bodily autonomy trumps the right of the fetus to live. In this line of reasoning, the living human fetus is regarded as a (living) parasite. I think there are a lot of problems with this line of reasoning, but it seems to be an emerging talking point among the pro-choice crowd.
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Body autonomy as the highest standard should mean women have choice to use their body to make money, abuse their body with hard drugs as they wish, exist in a state of undress as they desire, and have access to euthanasia on demand.
 
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#2,020
#2,020
volkyries said:
One thing I found interesting is now all of the pro-life supporters saying they will focus on legislation, etc. to provide for mothers and the "saved" children. No statement could be more telling that the choices previously were have a kid and fend for yourself or get an abortion. Life started at conception and ended at birth for taking care of those kids.
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I'd like to see them work on making the adoption process cheaper and quicker.
 
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#2,021
#2,021
MG1968 said:
It’s also morally wrong to condemn an unwanted child to a life of abuse and misery. It doesn’t matter if it’s with biological parents/relatives or as an adoptee or foster child. The religious right attempts to occupy a moral high ground here but it can’t. “All life is precious” as long as your tax dollars aren’t being used to help provide a better life.
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Huh? Adopted children would be better dead?
 
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#2,022
#2,022
ACvol3 said:
Religion or no religion… can’t we agree that murder is wrong? People are making this way more complicated than it needs to be
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Sure. Until the left leaning media decides to hold democratic leaders accountable for the murders in their cities we are in a standstill of picking and choosing which lives truly matter.
 
#2,024
#2,024
Vol8188 said:
Agreed. I think everyone agrees on that. At some point, it does become murder. When that point is, is the entire debate and there’s numerous markers you could use to establish that.

Which is more reason why allowing more flexibility in abortion laws is a better solution than top down government
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Think I'd rather see a federal law on the subject to keep it uniform.
 
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