Ronald Reagan was one of the greatest POTUS in history.

[UT IE 95]

i believe that once we went into iraq, the majority of them came to iraq. looking back we shouldn't have gone into iraq, but it did bring the terrorists there because we were there. and instead of withdrawing, we should keep up the fight, and move it to what ever "stan" paki, afghan, w/e.

Rather than keep fighting terrorists that come into Iraq, why not leave Iraq and hunt down the terrorists where they originate?

 

[BigPapaVol]

Either you do not understand it or you think a global economy is a passing fad.

what does the global economy have to do with it?

The US economy is unequivocally the backbone of the international economic system.

 

[volsforever27]

Either you do not understand it or you think a global economy is a passing fad.

And you must enjoy posting pointless thoughts; the countries who don't like us didn't base it on Iraq, nor should we base our foreign policy on popularity contests.

As pointed out already, the USA's economy is what makes the world go 'round.

 

[volsforever27]

Rather than keep fighting terrorists that come into Iraq, why not leave Iraq and hunt down the terrorists where they originate?

Or why not realize this is a war that shouldn't be limited to one or two countries, and have a presence in the area?

 

[UT IE 95]

well, you just bought a dramatically better operating base in Iraq, a pro US gov't in the Middle East and one helluva lot of military experience. There's your strategic investment and it's a damn good one.

Well, if we have a better operating base and a pro US goverment there then what the hell are we still fighting a war there for?

As for the experience, I agree that we have learned alot of lessons on what not to do.

 

[KB5252]

Rather than keep fighting terrorists that come into Iraq, why not leave Iraq and hunt down the terrorists where they originate?

So are you saying we should be in open conflict in two thirds of the countries throughout the middle east?

Yeah, that sounds like a great trade off! Pull out of Iraq and open fronts in 18 different countries around the world, and we still would not have scraped the surface!:good!:

 

[UT IE 95]

Or why not realize this is a war that shouldn't be limited to one or two countries, and have a presence in the area?

We will have a presence in Iraq well after your grandchildren are gone.

 

[volsforever27]

We will have a presence in Iraq well after your grandchildren are gone.

And that's a good thing.

 

[UT IE 95]

So are you saying we should be in open conflict in two thirds of the countries throughout the middle east?

Yeah, that sounds like a great trade off! Pull out of Iraq and open fronts in 18 different countries around the world, and we still would not have scraped the surface!:good!:

No, we should be in open conflict with terrorist organizations. And since according to BMFPV we have a pro-US government in Iraq I guess we are not even technically at war with Iraq - only in Iraq fighting imported terrorists. Let's be proactive and quit this Iraqi reactive crap already.

 

[volsforever27]

No, we should be in open conflict with terrorist organizations. And since according to BMFPV we have a pro-US government in Iraq I guess we are not even technically at war with Iraq - only in Iraq fighting imported terrorists. Let's be proactive and quit this Iraqi reactive crap already.

I wasn't aware that being proactive involved hauling ass out of there.

 

[UT IE 95]

And that's a good thing.

It's unfortunate there are actually some people that believe that.

 

[UT IE 95]

what does the global economy have to do with it?

The US economy is unequivocally the backbone of the international economic system.

We are currently witnessing that change right before our eyes.

 

[UT IE 95]

I wasn't aware that being proactive involved hauling ass out of there.

I never expected that you would.

 

[volsforever27]

It's unfortunate there are actually some people that believe that.

Just like it's unfortunate you want to retreat because some people around the world think it's a bad idea.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Well, if we have a better operating base and a pro US goverment there then what the hell are we still fighting a war there for?

As for the experience, I agree that we have learned alot of lessons on what not to do.

we're there until that government can govern, to put it as simply as possible. Not unlike our presence in Japan and Germany at the end of WWII.

 

[volsforever27]

I never expected that you would.

Unlike you, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I guess that goes down as a fail.

 

[volsforever27]

I've yet to see how pulling out of Iraq will actually help fight terrorism.

 

[KB5252]

No, we should be in open conflict with terrorist organizations. And since according to BMFPV we have a pro-US government in Iraq I guess we are not even technically at war with Iraq - only in Iraq fighting imported terrorists. Let's be proactive and quit this Iraqi reactive crap already.

How can you engage the enemy in open conflict around the middle east (and elsewhere) without invading those countries?

The only way we will have a pro US government in Iraq is if we can leave them in a position where they can keep order and defend themselves. If we leave now Iran will subvert their government and create havoc throughout the country. If we stay the coarse and let the people adjust to rule by democracy we will have an ally in the area.

I don't know if you qualify here but way too many liberals would rather pull out of Iraq now just to spite Bush and prove him wrong in their eyes. They don't see that if we don't finish this mission we have let our brave men die for nothing. They would rather use this situation as a "see they were wrong we were right" moment instead of making the best out of the situation given.

 

[BigPapaVol]

I don't know if you qualify here but way too many liberals would rather pull out of Iraq now just to spite Bush and prove in wrong in their eyes. They don't see that if we don't finish this mission we have let our brave men die for nothing. They would rather use this situation as a "see they were wrong we were right" moment instead of making the best out of the situation given.

And that, KB, is the entire impetus for the Obama rise to prominence. He is on the dem ticket today for solely this reason.

 

[KB5252]

We are currently witnessing that change right before our eyes.

There are way too many factors involved to point to one and say "see that's the reason". This chain of events was set in motion at least 20 years ago.

 

[UT IE 95]

Just like it's unfortunate you want to retreat because some people around the world think it's a bad idea.

I've yet to see how pulling out of Iraq will actually help fight terrorism.

I'll try this in simple terms. We're not fighting Iraqi terrorists in Iraq. We have nothing to "retreat" from. We need to go after and eliminate the origin of the problems terrorists in Iraq.

Quit treating the symptoms and go after the cause.

Make sense? It's not giving up, retreating, or quitting like the Bush admin keeps telling you. It's about going after the real problem with a plan.

I really wish McCain would move to this line of thinking. I'd jump on his wagon in a heatbeat if his war strategy lined up better with my analysis of the situation at hand. You know he wants to based on that pained look he has everytime he talks about support the party line and Bush's War.

 

[UT IE 95]

The only way we will have a pro US government in Iraq is if we can leave them in a position where they can keep order and defend themselves. If we leave now Iran will subvert their government and create havoc throughout the country. If we stay the coarse and let the people adjust to rule by democracy we will have an ally in the area.

Shouldn't people fight for democracy rather than have it forced on them? What kind of timeline are we looking at for this democracy acceptance from Joe Iraqi? 10 years, 20 years, 100 years....

 

[UT IE 95]

There are way too many factors involved to point to one and say "see that's the reason". This chain of events was set in motion at least 20 years ago.

Agreed. But rather than watch the factors continue to build - shouldn't we wake up and reverse the trend?

 

[rjd970]

The only way we will have a pro US government in Iraq is if we can leave them in a position where they can keep order and defend themselves. If we leave now Iran will subvert their government and create havoc throughout the country. If we stay the coarse and let the people adjust to rule by democracy we will have an ally in the area.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think they will ever adjust to the rule of democracy? Left to their own accords, there is nothing to suggest they will keep themselves from voting in a full fledged theocracy or extremist dictatorship, with voting happening along ethnic and religious lines. We could stay there another 100 years and this wouldn't change. Even the Palestinians, practicing democracy, elected a Hamas government. Saudi Arabia, a "pro US govt" uses the Qu'ran as the state constitution.

This is why I think the Japan/Germany analogy is wrong. Taken as a whole, they wanted us there. They knew they needed us. There will never be a secular government in the Middle East as there is today with Germany and Japan. It doesn't take into account the ethnic and religious unrest in the region. When Sunni's and Shiites have been slaughtering each other for 1300 years, I don't think it is reasonable to assume they will ever be able to fully govern themselves in a western style democracy we would find suitable.

 

[UT IE 95]

And that, KB, is the entire impetus for the Obama rise to prominence. He is on the dem ticket today for solely this reason.

I would never support a policy or platform that does something just to spite Bush. The Bush admin was a tragic failure and I am ready to put it behind us and move forward with either McCain or Obama.