Russia brings the fight to ISIS in Syria!!!

We just see it different. I put more emphasis on past actions(since the collapse of the Soviet union) and not on hot air, which is what we've been reading the majority of the time about Russia and Putin. Russia isn't the one going around the world policing everything and everybody. Do they have geostrategic interests? Of course they do. We have 100's of military bases all over the globe. NATO has been encroaching ever since the collapse of the USSR and are constantly beating war drums if Putin so much as looks to the west. Quit beating the man down because he has a set...because he refuses western encroachment and takes up for his allies. Wouldn't you expect the same from your president whether you were American or Russian?

Let's quit demonizing someone for doing what we do, but to a much lesser degree..

This is going to be the longest post in VolNation history, but bear with me.

You know me, I'm an unabashed tribalist. Humans and animals didn't develop such an evolutionary phenomenon that has resided with us for millions of years for no particular reason. But there's good tribalism and bad tribalism. A robust and healthy tribalism can assure that the interests of one's tribe is best served while impeding another tribe from gaining too much power or from setting a paradigm that is fundamentally unfavorable.

Now take "tribe" and replace with the "nation." My goal, as an American nationalist (who obviously has no bearing on actual policy unless perhaps I write an article or two one day) is to ensure the essential health of the nation-tribe above all else. Whereas other nationalists may see this as the only goal, I however, see it as the primary goal that can only be well served if it uses its robustness to facilitate a system of relative mutuality (maybe not complete) that benefits the majority of other nation-tribes as well. A "global commons" if you will.

For the most part, the US created this commons and served it remarkably well for the better part of the past 70 years (mistakes were made and lives wasted but overall, it was net positive for America and the world). The current instability we see in the Middle East, in Ukraine, in Eastern Europe, in East Asia, etc. is the result of two forces:

1. While America's reach is not necessarily weakening, as some have claimed, others have entered the theater to fill some of the gaps. I give you Russia and China, namely. This was inevitable. The 90s were an anomaly. In the process of this return to history, the liberal order finds itself harried, questioned, and even weakened in places.

2. The US betrayed its own order, and this was largely the result of unilateralism (which is not to be confused with hegemony). Rather than allowing liberal forces to take effect and for the mostly self-steering and self-correcting (under US guidance) order to work, the US took advantage of the post-Cold War, post-9-11 climate to circumvent its own rule-based order. This cannot work. For the order to work effectively, it must come with patience, resolve, and fortitude (which is why containment is not necessarily bad, but more on that below). While a process that can be sped up, it cannot be done necessarily by force. It must occur organically, and we betrayed our own order, particularly in Iraq in 2003.

So, in essence, the current instability we see, while mild in comparison to that witnessed by previous epochs, is not a result of the flaws of the liberal order; rather, it is a result of that orders weakening.

The pull is still heavy though, and American power should be used wisely to maintain the order's inherent appeal (more stability and security, easier access to markets, liberalized domestic governments and economies, greater international cooperation, etc.).

And this is where a risky dame named "Russia" walked in. Legs that ran on for miles. Rather than viewing Russian (and Chinese) power as a complete obstacle, it is in American interests to co-opt Russian nationalism and use it to its own benefit. The counterbalancing (though not necessarily multipolarity) involved can keep America from being her own worst enemy and from subverting the order again. Putin's desire for spheres of influence and multipolarity is not desirable by itself, because it offers no real common global objective and is reductive in the sense that it returns us to a pre-WWII order (which never worked well). I don't blame him, because what the hell else is he going to do since the US controls the global liberal order, but his objective for the future should be desirable to no one. He can, however, be a useful tool that unwittingly keeps the order from weakening since he keeps the US honest, direct, and reserved.

Lastly, you addressed the issue of containment indirectly through your referencing of the staggering amount of US bases worldwide. Containment is important though, and it's important for the reasons I stressed above. It is a guarantor that the order survives and perpetuates but without conflict. Why does the US have so many bases overseas while a country like Russia has very few? Very simple: geography. Russia directly consists of or directly borders all of Mackinder's "heartland," while the US resides in a secure but globally irrelevant backwaters (almost literally). Russia didn't become as powerful and as globally relevant as it is for no particular reason; it harbors very valuable (but dangerous) real estate indeed. Russia doesn't need bases all over the world, because the only relevant strategic places on Earth, it already borders or is fairly close to. It would be a waste of money. If the US wants to remain relevant and wants to secure the longevity of its liberal order (of which it is the primary beneficiary, no doubt), then it must maintain these positions that cradle the Eurasian heartland, although we could certainly still function with fewer. No containment is death. Once the US loses its grip on these places in the rimland it may never gain them back (since simply bordering them is far easier than sailing a navy 8,000 miles across the ocean and rebuilding a global alliance system).

Now, if you don't think the rule-based liberal order is the most desirable for global trade and security, then none of what I say will make much difference and it will simply be a matter of philosophical loggerheads. I, for one, think it a net positive for the US and the world (relative to any other conceivable alternative epochal paradigm), and if it is to survive it will need to learn how to turn the Russian and Chinese return of history against itself by playing smart but, most importantly, by playing by its own rules again.
 
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This is going to be the longest post in VolNation history, but bear with me.

You know me, I'm an unabashed tribalist. Humans and animals didn't develop such an evolutionary phenomenon that has resided with us for millions of years for no particular reason. But there's good tribalism and bad tribalism. A robust and healthy tribalism can assure that the interests of one's tribe is best served while impeding another tribe from gaining too much power or from setting a paradigm that is fundamentally unfavorable.

Now take "tribe" and replace with the "nation." My goal, as an American nationalist (who obviously has no bearing on actual policy unless perhaps I write an article or two one day) is to ensure the essential health of the nation-tribe above all else. Whereas other nationalists may see this as the only goal, I however, see it as the primary goal that can only be well served if it uses its robustness to facilitate a system of relative mutuality (maybe not complete) that benefits the majority of other nation-tribes as well. A "global commons" if you will.

For the most part, the US created this commons and served it remarkably well for the better part of the past 70 years (mistakes were made and lives wasted but overall, it was net positive for America and the world). The current instability we see in the Middle East, in Ukraine, in Eastern Europe, in East Asia, etc. is the result of two forces:

1. While America's reach is not necessarily weakening, as some have claimed, others have entered the theater to fill some of the gaps. I give you Russia and China, namely. This was inevitable. The 90s were an anomaly. In the process of this return to history, the liberal order finds itself harried, questioned, and even weakened in places.

2. The US betrayed its own order, and this was largely the result of unilateralism (which is not to be confused with hegemony). Rather than allowing liberal forces to take effect and for the mostly self-steering and self-correcting (under US guidance) order to work, the US took advantage of the post-Cold War, post-9-11 climate to circumvent its own rule-based order. This cannot work. For the order to work effectively, it must come with patience, resolve, and fortitude (which is why containment is not necessarily bad, but more on that below). While a process that can be sped up, it cannot be done necessarily by force. It must occur organically, and we betrayed our own order, particularly in Iraq in 2003.

So, in essence, the current instability we see, while mild in comparison to that witnessed by previous epochs, is not a result of the flaws of the liberal order; rather, it is a result of that orders weakening.

The pull is still heavy though, and American power should be used wisely to maintain the order's inherent appeal (more stability and security, easier access to markets, liberalized domestic governments and economies, greater international cooperation, etc.).

And this is where a risky dame named "Russia" walked in. Legs that ran on for miles. Rather than viewing Russian (and Chinese) power as a complete obstacle, it is in American interests to co-opt Russian nationalism and use it to its own benefit. The counterbalancing (though not necessarily multipolarity) involved can keep America from being her own worst enemy and from subverting the order again. Putin's desire for spheres of influence and multipolarity is not desirable by itself, because it offers no real common global objective and is reductive in the sense that it returns us to a pre-WWII order (which never worked well). I don't blame him, because what the hell else is he going to do since the US controls the global liberal order, but his objective for the future should be desirable to no one. He can, however, be a useful tool that unwittingly keeps the order from weakening since he keeps the US honest, direct, and reserved.

Lastly, you addressed the issue of containment indirectly through your referencing of the staggering amount of US bases worldwide. Containment is important though, and it's important for the reasons I stressed above. It is a guarantor that the order survives and perpetuates but without conflict. Why does the US have so many bases overseas while a country like Russia has very few? Very simple: geography. Russia directly consists of or directly borders all of Mackinder's "heartland," while the US resides in a secure but globally irrelevant backwaters (almost literally). Russia didn't become as powerful and as globally relevant as it is for no particular reason; it harbors very valuable (but dangerous) real estate indeed. Russia doesn't need bases all over the world, because the only relevant strategic places on Earth, it already borders or is fairly close to. It would be a waste of money. If the US wants to remain relevant and wants to secure the longevity of its liberal order (of which it is the primary beneficiary, no doubt), then it must maintain these positions that cradle the Eurasian heartland, although we could certainly still function with fewer. No containment is death. Once the US loses its grip on these places in the rimland it may never gain them back (since simply bordering them is far easier than sailing a navy 8,000 miles across the ocean and rebuilding a global alliance system).

Now, if you don't think the rule-based liberal order is the most desirable for global trade and security, then none of what I say will make much difference and it will simply be a matter of philosophical loggerheads. I, for one, think it a net positive for the US and the world (relative to any other conceivable alternative epochal paradigm), and if it is to survive it will need to learn how to turn the Russian and Chinese return of history against itself by playing smart but, most importantly, by playing by its own rules again.

I agree about the tribalism, however, don't you think that part of this mental evolution is from personal experience and not stories handed down through just lore alone? It takes a lot for a tribe of over 300 million to think a certain way without experiencing anything somatic. Think of the effort that has encompassed two countries despising the opppositrs lifestyle without experiencing it...
 
I agree about the tribalism, however, don't you think that part of this mental evolution is from personal experience and not stories handed down through just lore alone? It takes a lot for a tribe of over 300 million to think a certain way without experiencing anything somatic. Think of the effort that has encompassed two countries despising the opppositrs lifestyle without experiencing it...

Nothing I've said suggests that either side should despise one another or that either should mistrust the other.
 
I wonder why MSF was so up-in-arms over the Kunduz bombing, yet we hardly hear any uproar from them or around the globe concerning Russian strikes on hospitals in Syria. The head of the Red Cross in Syria has told RT that there have been no signs of any strikes on hospitals or other civilian targets in Syria. On a related note, you can add the Red Cross Syrian head to the list of paid Kremlin employees.

Hundreds killed by Russian air strikes in Syria - Al Jazeera English

The Observatory said it had documented the deaths of 185 civilians, 131 fighters of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) group and 279 members of opposition groups after Russia carried out strikes in 10 of the country's 14 provinces.

According to the Observatory, the US-led strikes have killed 3,649 people since they began, around six percent of them civilians.

The monitor said earlier this week that US-led raids had killed 3,276 ISIL fighters, 147 members of opposition fighters and 226 civilians.

RT has tried its best to malign and discredit the Syrian Observatory, but, as far as I can tell, it looks like an equal opportunity critic.
 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera

Al Jazeera (Arabic: الجزيرة‎ al-ǧazīrah IPA: [æl dʒæˈziːrɐ], literally "The Peninsula",[2] referring to the Arabian Peninsula), also known as Aljazeera and JSC (Jazeera Satellite Channel), is a Doha-based state-funded broadcaster owned by the Al Jazeera Media Network, which is partly funded by the House of Thani, the ruling family of Qatar.[3] Initially launched as an Arabic news and current affairs satellite TV channel, Al Jazeera has since expanded into a network with several outlets, including the Internet and specialty TV channels in multiple languages.

Qatar is obviously neutral in all of this... they have no agenda at all.
 

The US maintains that Russian airstrikes hit hospitals and caused collateral damage in Syria. However, when asked to provide supporting evidence, Washington said that it bases its allegations on “press reporting” and unconfirmed accounts from “civil society groups.”

Washington continuing their antics from Ukraine by using social media/Twitter as their main form of intelligence gathering.
 
Seems our resident Kremlin allies are trying desperately to discredit the Syrian Observatory.

This has been a theme thus far for the Russian media and its ally network. Two things about that:

1. Common sense and logic dictates that, within a month, at least one non-combatant will be killed by continuous strikes. It's called collateral damage, and it will happen no matter how many measures are taken to avoid it.

2. That the Syrian Observatory also reports on the innocent casualties of American airstrikes, not all of which are ever brought to the media's attention or admitted by the US, should serve as sufficient proof that the Observatory is not merely a tool of the US/UK and its coalition.

I think it's about time to man-up and admit the mistakes that have been made, instead of trying so hard to demean an initiative that is trying to bring global attention to the plight of the Syrian people. Putin needs to actually practice those manly virtues he so constantly expounds instead of just giving them lip service. Fess up and take some damn responsibility.
 

When you have one side trying to convince the world that up is down and down is up, left is right and right is left, I know it's difficult to distinguish what is true from what is false.

So I preposition my query with that premise.

But, when one side constantly deflects the reality of the facts on the ground, what else qualifies as sufficient proof other than the reporting of press on the ground, human rights observatories, and NGOs like MSF (Doctors Without Borders)? You say intelligence, but what does that mean? Would an official report released from the Pentagon on civilian deaths due to Russian airstrikes really make any difference to you? What would such information even look like? Don't we typically get information from the media and from groups on the ground, just like we did with MSF in Kunduz? Well, MSF has also accused Russia of striking its hospitals and killing civilians. It hasn't received the international attention of the Kunduz incident, but they have indeed made such accusations against Russia. We also have videos of hospitals in Syria that have been hit.

I just don't know what exactly you guys are looking for or what else could "prove" the truth to you, shy of the Kremlin admitting its guilt, which will never happen, because we all know that Russians **** excellence and nothing but.

I just don't get the whole "up is down, down is up; left is right, right is left" approach you guys often tend to take.
 
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Again, you're trying really hard and avoiding common sense in the process. The nerve this "guy" has struck with the Russian media and its ally network, I can tell he must really be on to something. When something is untrue, national leadership typically tends to just dismiss it and go on; not mount an extended media campaign against said source of "untruth."

This all defies common sense. I expect better from you. The man reports on American culpability as well; how can he merely be some sort of Western pawn? It goes against rational expectations too that a month's worth of over a thousand airstrikes could not possibly have killed at least one non-combatant.

You made your case against the US a couple days ago, and I understand that case. Something you never quite clarified though is your lack of judicious discretion when it comes time to Russian (indeed, just about all non-Western media) media and Russian political leadership. It doesn't add up to me, and, in the process you make yourself very vulnerable. You seem lost in a philosophical wilderness, not quite sure what exactly you're about. You can't be a "critical thinker" one second, then a non-critical thinker the next. You're either a critical thinker or you aren't.

So, are we to assume that over a thousand Russian airstrikes in a month have not produced a single civilian casualty or hit a single non-combatant target? This question premised on the fact that Russia has historically (since the tsars) been highly non-transparent in its military's dealings with civilians. A country that, as far as I'm aware, has still not officially admitted to any culpability in the death of Chechen citizens during the two Chechen wars.
 
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Again, you're trying really hard and avoiding common sense in the process. The nerve this "guy" has struck with the Russian media and its ally network, I can tell he must really be on to something. When something is untrue, national leadership typically tends to just dismiss it and go on; not mount an extended media campaign against said source of "untruth."

This all defies common sense. I expect better from you. The man reports on American culpability as well; how can he merely be some sort of Western pawn? It goes against rational expectations too that a month's worth of over a thousand airstrikes could not possibly have killed at least one non-combatant.

You made your case against the US a couple days ago, and I understand that case. Something you never quite clarified though is your lack of judicious discretion when it comes time to Russian (indeed, just about all non-Western media) media and Russian political leadership. It doesn't add up to me, and, in the process you make yourself very vulnerable. You seem lost in a philosophical wilderness, not quite sure what exactly you're about. You can't be a "critical thinker" one second, then a non-critical thinker the next. You're either a critical thinker or you aren't.

So, are we to assume that over a thousand Russian airstrikes in a month have not produced a single civilian casualty or hit a single non-combatant target? This question premised on the fact that Russia has historically (since the tsars) been highly non-transparent in its military's dealings with civilians. A country that, as far as I'm aware, has still not officially admitted to any culpability in the death of Chechen citizens during the two Chechen wars.

Well, if we want to bring in countries that has refused accountability for the deaths of innocent people(collateral damage in US terms) in the Middle East, amongst other places, let's bring the undisputed title holder into the conversation, which is the US. Common sense would deem that a fair discussion.

The incessant, damning claims by MSM that Russia is wrong, US is right is getting old. We can't directly fight them on the battlefield so the best weapon left is to exploit and propagandize every opportunity.

I've not claimed that Russia hasn't killed at least one single civilian, but I do know that the continuous effort of the US government to fund and support terrorist to ouster a democratically elected leader(s) of a country(ies), has and will continue to kill more innocents than Russia.
 
Well, if we want to bring in countries that has refused accountability for the deaths of innocent people(collateral damage in US terms) in the Middle East, amongst other places, let's bring the undisputed title holder into the conversation, which is the US. Common sense would deem that a fair discussion.

The incessant, damning claims by MSM that Russia is wrong, US is right is getting old. We can't directly fight them on the battlefield so the best weapon left is to exploit and propagandize every opportunity.

I've not claimed that Russia hasn't killed at least one single civilian, but I do know that the continuous effort of the US government to fund and support terrorist to ouster a democratically elected leader(s) of a country(ies), has and will continue to kill more innocents than Russia.

The difference between the US and Russia is not whether one kills civilians or doesn't, it's that one takes blame when it is portioned out while the other only deflects. To this day, Russia has still not officially admitted any culpability in the death of any Chechen citizen or prisoner during the Chechen wars. It has apparently decided to take the same approach in Syria. Call me old-fashioned, but I expect those who champion manly virtues, as Putin and the Russians do, to admit to their mistakes because admitting to one's mistakes is a masculine virtue. Hiding, deflecting, and deceiving is the virtue of the child.

Not that this had anything to do with my question, but yes, I'm confident that the US is directly responsible for more civilian deaths over the past 10 years at least (don't forget about the two Chechen wars of the 90s/00s) than Russia. Based upon what I've seen in Syria in no more than a month though, I imagine those skewed statistics will radically level off within the next few years.

But, when everything is a vast American cabalistic conspiracy, reality is difficult to prove.
 
The difference between the US and Russia is not whether one kills civilians or doesn't, it's that one takes blame when it is portioned out while the other only deflects. To this day, Russia has still not officially admitted any culpability in the death of any Chechen citizen or prisoner during the Chechen wars. It has apparently decided to take the same approach in Syria. Call me old-fashioned, but I expect those who champion manly virtues, as Putin and the Russians do, to admit to their mistakes because admitting to one's mistakes is a masculine virtue. Hiding, deflecting, and deceiving is the virtue of the child.

Not that this had anything to do with my question, but yes, I'm confident that the US is directly responsible for more civilian deaths over the past 10 years at least (don't forget about the two Chechen wars of the 90s/00s) than Russia. Based upon what I've seen in Syria in no more than a month though, I imagine those skewed statistics will radically level off within the next few years.

But, when everything is a vast American cabalistic conspiracy, reality is difficult to prove.

"Skewered" statistics are as old as war itself. Exaggerating enemy losses while minimizing their own. Along with that is the intentional underestimation of civilian casualties. Hiding, deceiving and deflecting is not only of a child, but of large nations as well.

Seems to me, that the US government is good at childlike games....dishing it out, but can't take it in return. The continuous crying wolf is growing old, but obviously still in fashion via MSM.

Saying that Russia admits less culpability compared to the US is, well, just plain humorous.
 
"Skewered" statistics are as old as war itself. Exaggerating enemy losses while minimizing their own. Along with that is the intentional underestimation of civilian casualties. Hiding, deceiving and deflecting is not only of a child, but of large nations as well.

Seems to me, that the US government is good at childlike games....dishing it out, but can't take it in return. The continuous crying wolf is growing old, but obviously still in fashion via MSM.

Saying that Russia admits less culpability compared to the US is, well, just plain humorous.

And still you deny and deflect.

Well, we aren't going to get much out of you, that's clear.

The SVR should hire you. Like yourself, they too find facts plain humorous.
 

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