School Shooting in Knoxville

And Heller didn’t overturn Miller, so the right is currently recognized as the ability to possess, (1) in your own home, (2) for a traditionally lawful purpose, (3) a weapon that has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.

“In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.”

United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174, 59 S.Ct. 816, 83 L.Ed. 1206, does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 2812 - 2816.”

So that’s it in terms of the Supreme Court.

In terms of historical precedent, the 9th circuit recently went back to the 1300’s and traced restrictions on carrying weapons outside the home all the way to present day. I suspect most cases will do this from now on to appeal to Roberts and Kavanaugh.

This idea that the second amendment doesn’t allow any restriction on gun ownership is a product of modern propaganda. I do think we will move towards defining the second amendment, and as the Roberts court has done with the first amendment, it will be a libertarian definition, but Scalia’s dicta from Heller that you quoted is good to keep in mind as that happens.

Oh boy...

The NFA 1934 was, by and large, a revenue gathering measure (the government has never disputed that) and was meant as a method of starting federal level gun control. It was followed by the failed Federal Firearms Act (you really should read up on that sh!t) that would have prohibited an entire class of arms. Now, obviously, we're talking the 1930s here where the federal government was really going out of its way for a power consolidation, but anyway...

The major intent of the NFA was to start restricting classes of weapons used by "criminals" allegedly in response to the Valentine's Day massacre. Hell, the authors of the bills admit that.

Miller argued that the NFA was a revenue gathering measure, the gun in question was transported for "interstate commerce," (even though they never proved Miller and his partner were engaged in interstate commerce) and the final two (one of which was actually blown up by Scalia in the Heller decision)

The Second Amendment protects only the ownership of military-type weapons appropriate for use in an organized militia

Which, again, Scalia blew up in the first portion of the Heller opinion:

The phrase “keep arms” was not prevalent in the written documents of the founding period that we have found, but there are a few examples, all of which favor viewing the right to “keep Arms” as an individual right unconnected with militia service. We turn to the phrases “keep arms” and “bear arms.” Johnson defined “keep” as, most relevantly, “[t]o retain; not to lose,” and “[t]o have in custody.” Johnson 1095. Webster defined it as “[t]o hold; to retain in one’s power or possession.” No party has apprised us of an idiomatic meaning of “keep Arms.” Thus, the most natural reading of “keep Arms” in the Second Amendment is to “have weapons.”

At the time of the founding, as now, to “bear” meant to “carry.” See Johnson 161; Webster; T. Sheridan, A Complete Dictionary of the English Language (1796); 2 Oxford English Dictionary 20 (2d ed. 1989) (hereinafter Oxford). When used with “arms,” however, the term has a meaning that refers to carrying for a particular purpose— confrontation. In Muscarello v. United States, 524 U. S. 125 (1998), in the course of analyzing the meaning of “carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, JUSTICE GINSBURG wrote that “urely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment . . . indicate: ‘wear, bear, or carry . . . upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose . . . of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.’” Id., at 143 (dissenting opinion) (quoting Black’s Law Dictionary 214 (6th ed. 1998)). We think that JUSTICE GINSBURG accurately captured the natural meaning of “bear arms.” Although the phrase implies that the carrying of the weapon is for the purpose of “offensive or defensive action,” it in no way connotes participation in a structured military organization

And finally that the Stevens shotgun in question had never been in a militia organization.

Of course it hadn't. But then again, weapons of militia service were never defined by any Constitutional Amendment nor were they by any State law. Militia service, during the 18th and 19th century, was a "come as you are" affair. Citizens were to show up when called "bearing arms" which would, in turn, become their "militia weapons." Something McReynolds never really went into with the Miller decision. Specifically:

does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes

And the vast majority of weapons regulated under the NFA are used for lawful purposes. The NFA, GCA 1968 and FOPA 1986 (the Hughes Amendment specifically) saw to keeping them out of "common use." Regardless, short barrel shotguns, short barrel rifles, suppressors, machine guns, etc, etc have a long history of being used in warfare by military and by citizen-soldiers. The SCOTUS either didn't know this or ignored it because of the revenue gathering measures of the NFA and/or because they thought it was taking weapons out of criminal's hands. Basically, ordinary gun dealers at the time couldn't afford the annual fee to be an NFA dealer (if memory serves it was something like $500 or $1,000 which was a hefty sum in the 1930s) and refused to do so.

It was gun control, regardless of the "revenue gathering" talk the Treasury Department claimed. Yet, criminals still got their short barrel shotguns, machine guns, etc anyway. See a repeating pattern here? My, how history repeats itself...

Anyway, Miller actually got blown up by the Heller decision if you look at the four items pushed by the government.

ETA: I have no idea why some of my post was struck through.
 
Last edited:
I seem to remember having to go through metal detectors when visiting Austin East 20 years ago. Has that changed?
 
Ok, let’s start from the beginning on Heller:

Scalia was an originalist, meaning he viewed the constitution through the lens of how it was understood at ratification.

He also has to be consistent with precedent or have five votes to overturn precedent. Miller was, at the time, good precedent and all this whining about how “messed up” it was or how the court “had to grant it or gut the law” is pretty meaningless. The court in Miller absolutely could have gutted the law, as they did in Heller, or done any number of lesser measures. They didn’t, they ruled the way they ruled and it was good law for nearly 70 years.

The bulk of Heller is about squaring it with the prefatory clause and/or Miller.

Section 1 is simply the facts and procedural posture.

In Section 2, Scalia starts with the prefatory clause (It being necessary to the establishment of a well regulated militia...) he writes that the prefatory clause announces a purpose, not a condition precedent, and that the operative clause (the right to bear arms shall not be infringed) supplies an individual right.

He explains his view of the context of the prefatory clause, including how it came into being and the concerns that prompted. In response to those concerns, the constitution was amended to include the right to bear arms.

That right, he says, was “not intended to lay down a ‘novel principl[e]’ but rather codifi[y] a right ‘inherited from our English ancestors...” Heller at 2801. This means that the right is subject to that same originalist contextualizing, but that it’s history goes back further than the founding.

It helps to think that The Right to Bear Arms is essentially like a title of a book, rather than an ordinary phrase. The title of the book doesn’t convey the full meaning of its contents, but Congress cannot abridge the book. You get all the chapters that existed at the time of ratification. No more. No less. (For an originalist). This is how all of the Bill of Rights is generally viewed by SCOTUS’s originalist justices (which includes all of the Trump appointees.)

He then supports this interpretation with citations to documents contemporaneous to the founding, analogous state constitutional sections, scholarly interpretations, and by reviewing the court’s own precedent. This is where he draws his “authority for saying he is right.”

Distilling all of that into “prefatory clause has no teeth” is made up reductionist nonsense. To follow that by bitching about circular logic and a lack of authority is astoundingly ignorant. He supplies the authority and historical support for what he’s saying in the pages of the opinion.

Section 3 has been posted here in its entirety. It is analogous to a very brief synopsis of the book titled The Right to Bear Arms. Scalia includes citations to authority to support it as well.

Section 4 is where he applies the established rubric to the facts of the case, finding that the individual has a right to possess, (1) a firearm commonly used (2) for a traditionally lawful purpose, (3) inside your own home.
You really need to go educate your legal illiterate ass on the Miller case which Heller absolutely gutted ... and then pointed to in order to justify firearms regulations.

Here you like Wikipedia so we will start with baby steps.

United States v. Miller - Wikipedia

Next up if you think you can absorb it here is an honest legal background piece out of NYU Law Journal

http://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/files/ECM_PRO_060964.pdf

Miller was a complete setup used to solidify the governments overreach on gun control masked as constitutional taxation. The circuit judge, Ragon, was a gun control shill and purposely sent the case to SCOTUS knowing it would not get a vigorous defense and would serve as the stare decisis cornerstone case cementing the heavy handed NFA1934. And it was never defended at SCOTUS the government got their complete say and then it STILL didn’t pass muster cleanly.

Any case justifying their cause based on Miller is bull ****. So after Finding I in Heller you can flush the rest down the toilet where it belongs.
 
Last edited:
I’m sure this made it to 20 but I’m not reading past the part where you admit to not understanding 3/4 of the opinion.

You could have saved yourself a lot of time by just admitting that up front.

3/4s of his opinion was case law and historical reference.

I think about half of the rest was making Breyer look dumb for his dissent.

It's interesting that one of the first cases to affirm the people's right to keep and bear arms came from Dred Scott. Basically, if black people were considered citizens, they would have to be afforded all the rights of citizens at the time.

DRED SCOTT, PLAINTIFF IN ERROR, v. JOHN F. A. SANDFORD.

It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognised as citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for which a white man would be punished; and it would give them the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went.
 
Yeah, it's never been retried.

Do you think it would stand today especially if the government said "well, it's for revenue purposes."
Damn I hope it gets back to SCOTUS with NFA1934 constitutionality being squarely in the sights of the decision.
 
@Grand Vol I’m not quoting your post because of your abhorrent formatting.

You’re right about Miller being worked around or “blown up” by Heller. Pretty sure I acknowledged that at some point. I had tried to go back and fix the post you quoted but didn’t save it. I realized that when I went to grab the language from that post for my post just prior to this one. Realizing that it hadn’t saved, I simply struck through it, which may be the cause of of your formatting issue.

The right to possess a commonly used firearm, for a traditionally lawful purpose, in one’s home, is a correct statement of the right as currently recognized by the court. It will likely be expanded from that, but that’s it at present.

This is a fairly high effort post except for the lazy attempts to dunk on positions I don’t hold.

The problem is that most of what you’re saying is what puts the lie to the way Scalia worked around Miller in Heller. Miller was never intended to limit the type of implement, it interpreted the prefatory clause as a condition precedent to the right. There was no individual right to bear arms.

For more than sixty years following the Supreme Court's decision in Miller, there was little judicial debate regarding the scope of the Second Amendment, as almost every circuit court interpreted Miller as rejecting the notion that the Second Amendment provided individuals a constitutional *226 right to possess firearms. See Thomas v. Members of City Council, 730 F.2d 41, 42 (1st Cir.1984)

Scalia pretended like none of that happened and made up the “common use for a traditionally lawful purpose” as an analogue for the holding in Miller when it had been commonly understood.

That said, even with Miller’s citation to state militia laws and the fact that it went unchallenged for 80 years or so, Scalia’s opinion is more authoritative because of the citations to historical precedent and a fairly convincing explanation of the right as it existed at common law.
 
You really need to go educate your legal illiterate ass on the Miller case which Heller absolutely gutted ... and then pointed to in order to justify firearms regulations.

Here you like Wikipedia so we will start with baby steps.

United States v. Miller - Wikipedia

Next up if you think you can absorb it here is an honest legal background piece out of NYU Law Journal

http://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/files/ECM_PRO_060964.pdf

Miller was a complete setup used to solidify the governments overreach on gun control masked as constitutional taxation. The circuit judge, Ragon, was a gun control shill and purposely sent the case to SCOTUS knowing it would not get a vigorous defense and would serve as the stare decisis cornerstone case cementing the heavy handed NFA1934. And it was never defended at SCOTUS the government got their complete say and then it STILL didn’t pass muster cleanly.

Any case justifying their cause based on Miller is bull ****. So after Finding I in Heller you can flush the rest down the toilet where it belongs.
ND40 5 minutes ago: Miller was the basis for Scalia saying they were right in Heller.
ND40 now: Miller was gutted by Heller.

Sit the **** down, dude. You dumb.
 
ND40 5 minutes ago: Miller was the basis for Scalia saying they were right in Heller.
ND40 now: Miller was gutted by Heller.

Sit the **** down, dude. You dumb.
ND40 never said anything based on Miller was valid. ND40 had said Miller was **** from day one. Your ignorant deflecting ass is dismissed.
 
And that rationale came from the broke ass decision in Miller which upheld NFA1934.
the Miller case which Heller absolutely gutted ...

So did the rationale come from Miller or was Miller gutted?

You’ve replaced the guy who wore the victim’s stolen jacket to court and who was identified by said victim when she said, “yes I see the man who stole my jacket in court. He’s standing there in my jacket” as the dumbest ************ I’ve ever heard of.
 
Yeah, it's never been retried.

Do you think it would stand today especially if the government said "well, it's for revenue purposes."
Yes. It would have to be unless SCOTUS had 5 votes to overturn Miller. It is still good precedent. They had the opportunity to overturn it and they did not. They worked around it and expressly and repeatedly left a carve out in Heller for limiting types of weapons.
 
So did the rationale come from Miller or was Miller gutted?

You’ve replaced the guy who wore the victim’s stolen jacket to court and who was identified by said victim when she said, “yes I see the man who stole my jacket in court. He’s standing there in my jacket” as the dumbest ************ I’ve ever heard of.
Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit is it orange man caddy?
 
3/4s of his opinion was case law and historical reference.

I think about half of the rest was making Breyer look dumb for his dissent.

Irrelevant, hyperbolic, reductionist.

It's interesting that one of the first cases to affirm the people's right to keep and bear arms came from Dred Scott. Basically, if black people were considered citizens, they would have to be afforded all the rights of citizens at the time.

DRED SCOTT, PLAINTIFF IN ERROR, v. JOHN F. A. SANDFORD.
Dicta.

Dred Scott is universally criticized as one of the worst decisions in SCOTUS history and as the 9th circuit recently pointed out, the right to bear arms was never that broad dating back to the 1300’s.
 
Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit is it orange man caddy?
No response. I don’t blame you, I wouldn’t want to defend that ********, either.

Hopefully @grandvol finishes the thread soon, so he can try to bail you out. He’s got to be running out of irrelevant factoids and there aren’t that many random anti-2A positions to dunk on.
 
No response. I don’t blame you, I wouldn’t want to defend that ********, either.

Hopefully @grandvol finishes the thread soon, so he can try to bail you out. He’s got to be running out of irrelevant factoids and there aren’t that many random anti-2A positions to dunk on.
LMAO no my response was correct you clearly aren’t smart enough to comprehend it.

Miller upheld NFA1934 that was its whole setup purpose.

Heller blew up the logic of Miller. Even you admitted that.

And Heller then also referenced Miller after Finding 1 to support the broke back basis of NFA1934 in upholding firearm ownership limitations.

Go polish Trump’s golf clubs pettifogger.
 
Last edited:
@Grand Vol I’m not quoting your post because of your abhorrent formatting.

You’re right about Miller being worked around or “blown up” by Heller. Pretty sure I acknowledged that at some point. I had tried to go back and fix the post you quoted but didn’t save it. I realized that when I went to grab the language from that post for my post just prior to this one. Realizing that it hadn’t saved, I simply struck through it, which may be the cause of of your formatting issue.

Yeah, I don't know why it got struck through. I'll blame you though I don't know how the technical gremlins caused that.

Anyway...

The right to possess a commonly used firearm, for a traditionally lawful purpose, in one’s home, is a correct statement of the right as currently recognized by the court. It will likely be expanded from that, but that’s it at present.

With you until you went into the home section. Because even Scalia mentioned Nunn V Georgia about the prohibition outside the home being struck down.

This is a fairly high effort post except for the lazy attempts to dunk on positions I don’t hold.

I don't know which positions I slam dunked you on since you didn't quote it, but thanks, I guess.

The problem is that most of what you’re saying is what puts the lie to the way Scalia worked around Miller in Heller. Miller was never intended to limit the type of implement, it interpreted the prefatory clause as a condition precedent to the right. There was no individual right to bear arms.

Which, again, was blown up by Scalia in Heller. Unintentionally? Doubtful because the man was too sharp for that. I think he knew what he was getting at but couldn't say it straight out. Miller was less about "gun control" (overtly that is) and more about the "revenue" portion of the NFA that restricted certain classes of firearms. Scalia alludes to this in his decision, but the simple fact remains about Miller.

Nobody showed up to present a defense...

Had the defense attorney simply asked "when has the militia been called out?" in regards to said Stevens shotgun not being registered to a militia, he would have gotten that part blown out. All he had to argue was his client (Miller) stood ready to be called out for militia duty and, if called, he would have his militia weapon ready to go. Because nowhere in any federal code is there a description for what a "militia weapon" was supposed to be.

Scalia pretended like none of that happened and made up the “common use for a traditionally lawful purpose” as an analogue for the holding in Miller when it had been commonly understood.

Oh, he set a huge precedent with that lol

Again, unintentionally? Doubtful as, again, Scalia was way too smart for that. That whole "common use for a lawful purpose" portion of Heller was meant for handguns, but is what can (and just might) keep any future efforts of banning so called "assault weapons" from happening. You look at the numbers of ARs, AKs, M1As, etc, etc there are in this country now and how many of those tens of millions of rifles are being (commonly) used for lawful purposes. In order to classify them on the NFA as Biden and others have suggested, they will have to type classify them away from being rifles (which will go against how the ATF classified them after the 1994 AWB) and into a new category. Because right now, they are just rifles and the cosmetic features they commonly use to describe an "assault weapon" does not and will not affect the function.

Scalia really set a good precedent with that one simple section.

That said, even with Miller’s citation to state militia laws and the fact that it went unchallenged for 80 years or so, Scalia’s opinion is more authoritative because of the citations to historical precedent and a fairly convincing explanation of the right as it existed at common law.

Scalia correctly didn't delve into the "militia" definition (nor did McReynolds in Miller) though it's hard to work around the historical definition by claiming it's the "National Guard." 10 USC SS 246 puts an end to that with organized vs. unorganized.

Heller was, in many ways, more than just the handgun ban in D.C. It was a precedent that clarified (and in reality struck down provisions of Miller) the Second Amendment. The only dissent (and again, not correct) that could be brought up by Breyer and Stevens was that it was a "collective" right even though Scalia blew that one up as well as he showed the Bill of Rights were all considered individual.
 
Yes. It would have to be unless SCOTUS had 5 votes to overturn Miller. It is still good precedent. They had the opportunity to overturn it and they did not. They worked around it and expressly and repeatedly left a carve out in Heller for limiting types of weapons.

Heller wasn't about overturning Miller. I don't think they had the chance since the cases were fairly unrelated. But see my post above in the fact it did actually undo some of the items in Miller even though they never said that in the opinion.
 
I think this discussion highlights the fact our SCOTUS gets **** wrong then subsequent cases are ****ed up because these arrogant asses don’t want to upset precedent. Our federal judiciary, court system and the legal profession as a whole needs to be blown up (figuratively) and rebuilt.
 
Irrelevant, hyperbolic, reductionist.

That was a joke, biscuit, lighten the **** up.

Dicta.

Dred Scott is universally criticized as one of the worst decisions in SCOTUS history and as the 9th circuit recently pointed out, the right to bear arms was never that broad dating back to the 1300’s.

The decision was horrid, but still that little quip showing freemen can (could) have and bear arms is certainly interesting.

And I'm not sure I'd really use the 9th Circuit as my fall back position. What's their overturn rate?
 
Yeah, I don't know why it got struck through. I'll blame you though I don't know how the technical gremlins caused that.

Anyway...



With you until you went into the home section. Because even Scalia mentioned Nunn V Georgia about the prohibition outside the home being struck down.

The “in one’s home” comes from the statute in Heller. Heller overruled a statute that proscribed possession of a handgun inside the home. That’s the only statute they’ve ruled unconstitutional, so I’ve cabined the case to it’s facts a bit. They didn’t go further and out of a strongly held tradition, they won’t until presented with a case that addresses a broader issue.

Legally, the citation to Nunn is probably a road-sign for where the court is headed, but it’s not binding, which is why we got the recent 9th circuit case and a similar case from NY that’s actually being punted from conference to conference at SCOTUS now.
I don't know which positions I slam dunked you on since you didn't quote it, but thanks, I guess.

The one about criminals still getting sawed off shotguns. I don’t think criminalizing firearms would be all that effective.

Which, again, was blown up by Scalia in Heller. Unintentionally? Doubtful because the man was too sharp for that. I think he knew what he was getting at but couldn't say it straight out. Miller was less about "gun control" (overtly that is) and more about the "revenue" portion of the NFA that restricted certain classes of firearms. Scalia alludes to this in his decision, but the simple fact remains about Miller.

No not unintentionally. It was very intentional. It wasn’t quite intellectually dishonest, because Miller didn’t expressly say there was no individual right. It’s not a well written opinion, and I remember having to read it again after reading Heller for the first time. But for most Justices, the fact that Miller had been interpreted that way for 70 years would carry some weight. He blew right past all that. It’s another example of why the language below isn’t yet a tremendous impediment to anti-2A movement (but the justices are).

Nobody showed up to present a defense...

Had the defense attorney simply asked "when has the militia been called out?" in regards to said Stevens shotgun not being registered to a militia, he would have gotten that part blown out. All he had to argue was his client (Miller) stood ready to be called out for militia duty and, if called, he would have his militia weapon ready to go. Because nowhere in any federal code is there a description for what a "militia weapon" was supposed to be.
I don’t understand the relevance of this. You guys keep going back to the facts of Miller. I’m not advocating for Miller as good law or some great case. All I’ve done today is point out what the law is and is not. Was and was not. (With at least one corrected mistake). Ya boy put out the bat signal because he got fact checked for trying to say that Heller doesn’t allow for any limitation of the second amendment, then that it was contradictory, then that it was based in Miller, then that it gutted Miller. He’s been a real hot mess.

Oh, he set a huge precedent with that lol

Again, unintentionally? Doubtful as, again, Scalia was way too smart for that. That whole "common use for a lawful purpose" portion of Heller was meant for handguns, but is what can (and just might) keep any future efforts of banning so called "assault weapons" from happening. You look at the numbers of ARs, AKs, M1As, etc, etc there are in this country now and how many of those tens of millions of rifles are being (commonly) used for lawful purposes. In order to classify them on the NFA as Biden and others have suggested, they will have to type classify them away from being rifles (which will go against how the ATF classified them after the 1994 AWB) and into a new category. Because right now, they are just rifles and the cosmetic features they commonly use to describe an "assault weapon" does not and will not affect the function.

Scalia really set a good precedent with that one simple section.

Scalia correctly didn't delve into the "militia" definition (nor did McReynolds in Miller) though it's hard to work around the historical definition by claiming it's the "National Guard." 10 USC SS 246 puts an end to that with organized vs. unorganized.

Heller was, in many ways, more than just the handgun ban in D.C. It was a precedent that clarified (and in reality struck down provisions of Miller) the Second Amendment. The only dissent (and again, not correct) that could be brought up by Breyer and Stevens was that it was a "collective" right even though Scalia blew that one up as well as he showed the Bill of Rights were all considered individual.


I don’t understand the repeated “unintentional” question any more than I understand why I keep getting associated with some defense of Miller. It is what it is, it’s still good law in that it allows for some regulation of types of firearms and the NFA is still constitutional.

The rationale for Heller is more compelling than Miller, but it leaves a lot of wiggle room for infringement of what 2A advocates seem to think is “the right to bear arms,” because all of the meaning of that right is not encompassed in those five words.

When all is said and done, I’m pretty sure the “shall not be infringed” language will apply to my analogy of The Bill of Rights, as the title of a book of English and American common law.

If that happens, then for precisely the reasons that Scalia’s opinion is authoritative, the 9th circuit holding last month is also compelling. With the current Court composition, that “book” will probably read more favorably than it would otherwise, but it is not currently and is not likely to be the right to carry any gun anywhere at any time.

States are free to permit that degree of freedom, but because of Morrison, once SCOTUS draws a line, the Feds can step up to it.
 
Ya boy put out the bat signal because he got fact checked for trying to say that Heller doesn’t allow for any limitation of the second amendment, then that it was contradictory, then that it was based in Miller, then that it gutted Miller. He’s been a real hot mess.
Actually I knew he’d have fun with your weak ass arguments I know I have. In the first section Heller squarely pointed to the operative clause as only having weight. Period. And that clause is clear. Then indirectly in the remaining sections it shreds the logic of Miller while not specifically saying “Miller was ****”. Heller squarely went to the individual right which Miller danced around the collective right on the militia statements.

Then Heller goes right back and references Miller with the “in common use for lawful purpose” crap stated in Heller to justify limiting firearm ownership... which conflicts with the first clause.

I realize you have to misstate that to keep your golf score methodology rolling but those are the facts pettifogger. Have you got those golf clubs shined up yet?
 
Last edited:
I think this discussion highlights the fact our SCOTUS gets **** wrong then subsequent cases are ****ed up because these arrogant asses don’t want to upset precedent. Our federal judiciary, court system and the legal profession as a whole needs to be blown up (figuratively) and rebuilt.
Any case that references Miller as precedent should be mocked. FFS the government didn’t even have to counter a defense argument. Their four basic points were BS. And their basis to limit firearm ownership was by taxation. They ignored the second amendment to limit the second amendment. And it was a completely setup case to provide a determined outcome and shore up the over reach of NFA1934. Complete BS.
 
The “in one’s home” comes from the statute in Heller. Heller overruled a statute that proscribed possession of a handgun inside the home. That’s the only statute they’ve ruled unconstitutional, so I’ve cabined the case to it’s facts a bit. They didn’t go further and out of a strongly held tradition, they won’t until presented with a case that addresses a broader issue.

It was actually an overall ban on handguns in D.C. Or the lack of permitting for said firearms. Heller basically said you can't ban an entire class of weapons. Home or not was irrelevant.

Legally, the citation to Nunn is probably a road-sign for where the court is headed, but it’s not binding, which is why we got the recent 9th circuit case and a similar case from NY that’s actually being punted from conference to conference at SCOTUS now.

The citation to Nunn was in context to your comment about the home. Which is why I don't think the 9th ruling is going to stand. Even though it was a State Supreme Court, the fact the SCOTUS uses it as precedent means it's not going to end well for the 9th.

No not unintentionally. It was very intentional. It wasn’t quite intellectually dishonest, because Miller didn’t expressly say there was no individual right. It’s not a well written opinion, and I remember having to read it again after reading Heller for the first time. But for most Justices, the fact that Miller had been interpreted that way for 70 years would carry some weight. He blew right past all that. It’s another example of why the language below isn’t yet a tremendous impediment to anti-2A movement (but the justices are).

As that New York law article thing pointed out. The Justice who wrote the opinion apparently wasn't a very good writer as it was. Smart as a tack, but not very good behind the pen.

I don’t understand the relevance of this. You guys keep going back to the facts of Miller. I’m not advocating for Miller as good law or some great case. All I’ve done today is point out what the law is and is not. Was and was not. (With at least one corrected mistake). Ya boy put out the bat signal because he got fact checked for trying to say that Heller doesn’t allow for any limitation of the second amendment, then that it was contradictory, then that it was based in Miller, then that it gutted Miller. He’s been a real hot mess.

You did say Miller was good law. Or rather, good precedent. When in reality it wasn't because there was no opposition to it at the SCOTUS level. That's the point I was making.

Would it have stood if the defense attorney who had already won at a lower level actually showed up in court to defend his client?

I don’t understand the repeated “unintentional” question any more than I understand why I keep getting associated with some defense of Miller. It is what it is, it’s still good law in that it allows for some regulation of types of firearms and the NFA is still constitutional.

Good grief, dude. Stop keying in on the side items.

It never "regulated" the firearms. Oh, sure, they were "regulated" in the sense that the average 1930s American wasn't going to pony up $200 for their sawed off shotgun, but it was never meant as a regulatory measure.

The rationale for Heller is more compelling than Miller, but it leaves a lot of wiggle room for infringement of what 2A advocates seem to think is “the right to bear arms,” because all of the meaning of that right is not encompassed in those five words.

When all is said and done, I’m pretty sure the “shall not be infringed” language will apply to my analogy of The Bill of Rights, as the title of a book of English and American common law.

Interesting that's the only Amendment where it uses that "infringed" language.

If that happens, then for precisely the reasons that Scalia’s opinion is authoritative, the 9th circuit holding last month is also compelling. With the current Court composition, that “book” will probably read more favorably than it would otherwise, but it is not currently and is not likely to be the right to carry any gun anywhere at any time.

States are free to permit that degree of freedom, but because of Morrison, once SCOTUS draws a line, the Feds can step up to it.

The 9th isn't really that compelling except in the fact there is plenty of case law precedent that would strike it down like the aforementioned Nunn or even Dred Scott. I feel like the 9th is going to lose this because of THIS CASE in which government cannot prohibit movement outside of the home. Provided, the SCOTUS kicked it back down to the lower courts since the laws were changed, but it should give one an idea what the SXOTUS will rule on the 9ths decision.
 
Actually I knew he’d have fun with your weak ass arguments I know I have. In the first section Heller squarely pointed to the operative clause as only having weight. Period. And that clause is clear. Then indirectly in the remaining sections it shreds the logic of Miller while not specifically saying “Miller was ****”. Heller squarely went to the individual right which Miller danced around the collective right on the militia statements.

Then Heller goes right back and references Miller with the “in common use for lawful purpose” crap stated in Miller to justify limiting firearm ownership... which conflicts with the first clause.

I realize you have to misstate that to keep your golf score methodology rolling but those are the facts pettifogger. Have you got those golf clubs shined up yet?
Lol. Wrong. Again. You have to be closing in on 100 erroneous statements at this point.

You tried to say it didn’t allow for any further restriction.
Luther pointed out that it expressly allowed time, place, and type restrictions.
You said that wasn’t Scalia, that it was all the judges writing together or a law clerk, lol, then you moved on to “it’s contradictory,” before finally admitting you didn’t even read past “section 1” which I assume is actually section 2.

You also tried to say that “section 1” said that a “well regulated militia,” just meant people knowing how to use their guns. “That’s it,” you said. That is woefully incomplete to the point of being incorrect.

You moved on to “section 1 says the operative clause is the only one that has any teeth” which is made up reductionist nonsense.

(To prove my point, there’s been a fairly robust discussion of what you’ve called section 1 or finding 1 at various times. I’m sure you were off googling new theories to try to spin as “what you really meant,” but you should try reading that discussion.)

You also started harping about Miller and the NFA at some point, first saying they’re the basis for Heller and then saying it’s gutted by Heller, and then claiming “even I admit” things in an effort to try to decapitate some quixotic strawman you’ve devised for me (which is totally a thing people who are correct would do).

I’m sure there were others, but just based on that, it would be a supremely humiliating performance for somebody who wanted to be taken seriously on any subject ever again. Luckily for you, that ship sailed, wrecked, sank to the bottom of the ocean, and has founded its own ecosystem of colorful fish who swim around pointing and laughing at the hapless captain as he hurls impotent insults like “pettifogger”at the boats sailing above his head.
 

VN Store



Back
Top