Shipping US LNG vs Russian Pipeline LNG to Europe

#127
#127
85SugarVol said:
I have no idea if this helps Europe or not. Since when do you care?
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I've said before that this entire scenario has its foundation built on the Ukraine issue. It's not as much about me caring about Europeans as it is me asking who in general benefits from this. It isn't average Americans. We can see it isn't average Europeans.

So what is this really about?
 
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#128
#128
Rasputin_Vol said:
I've said before that this entire scenario has its foundation built on the Ukraine issue. It's not as much about me caring about Europeans as it is me asking who in general benefits from this. It isn't average Americans. We can see it isn't average Europeans.

So what is this really about?
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You tell me. I don’t care.
 
#131
#131
hog88 said:
It's no efficient or economical but Europe has made their own bed so lets let our NG people make some money. There is enough NG in the North Sea to supply Europe for well over a 100 years but they are too stupid to tap it.
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Yeah, but once again we get screwed by globalism - supply and demand, so we pay more when US corporations sell a hot product overseas. Their profits likely don't do anything at all for US citizens either. I'm really getting to be a big nationalist. Mexico has announced they are going to clamp down on petroleum exports - at least somebody seems to see the light.
 
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#132
#132
AM64 said:
Yeah, but once again we get screwed by globalism - supply and demand, so we pay more when US corporations sell a hot product overseas. Their profits likely don't do anything at all for US citizens either. I'm really getting to be a big nationalist. Mexico has announced they are going to clamp down on petroleum exports - at least somebody seems to see the light.
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It's not costing us anymore. We don't come close to using what we produce because we don't have the distribution infrastructure to use it.
 
#133
#133
Rasputin_Vol said:
What kind if strings attached?
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I've thought all along the concept was to get Europeans to buy in and become reliant - basically a sole source thing with no contingencies. Once you do that then, the Russians can reel them in like a hooked fish. This is the classic model that some US companies used before antitrust regulations. Take over a market by underselling, drive out the competition, and then you have a virtual monopoly to do what you want with prices.

A similar situation is US electric power. We need more nuclear, but the capital and regulatory costs just to build the plants are prohibitive when NG suppliers were practically dumping NG in the US market - by comparison the cost of a NG electric generating plant is negligible. Investment markets are going to follow the quick buck - not what the country really needs - especially when that's a long term prospect, and we are all about instant gratification.
 
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#134
#134
Rasputin_Vol said:
It's the same deal (or close to it) that they had before. And that deal is far cheaper than what they have right now.

How is it benefiting Gazprom to sell gas to Europe on a long term contract at cheaper rates than what Gazprom could sell to them right now on the spot market?

None of you geniuses can answer me that.
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Future worth. Sell cheap and get the fish hooked and without alternatives, then you apply the screws. You have to quit thinking like we always do, and think more along the long term Oriental lines. As Americans, we expect others to think and scheme like we do - they don't.
 
#136
#136
Rasputin_Vol said:
I would like to know I what scenario it what universe would it be better to buy at spot right now than to enter into a long term contract... the same or similar contract that you just had before.

The only reason to not do it is if there are other reasons outside of business or economics that would be driving your decision. Sanctions being one example...
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Consumers have few alternatives when it comes to energy, and energy producers/suppliers can pass on the costs - sometimes even coming out ahead. Look at US gasoline prices; we can complain ... and pay, but we have no real other option. BOHICA says it all.
 
#139
#139
hog88 said:
It's not costing us anymore. We don't come close to using what we produce because we don't have the distribution infrastructure to use it.
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People keep saying that like it is a valid point. The question should be obvious..
Why aren't we using natural gas more?

If anything, saying that makes the case for our country being inefficient and unnecessary dependent on energy exports.
 
#140
#140
AM64 said:
I've thought all along the concept was to get Europeans to buy in and become reliant - basically a sole source thing with no contingencies. Once you do that then, the Russians can reel them in like a hooked fish. This is the classic model that some US companies used before antitrust regulations. Take over a market by underselling, drive out the competition, and then you have a virtual monopoly to do what you want with prices.
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There isn't any evidence that Gazprom is locking these countries in on exclusive deals... meaning they can only buy from Gazprom and not have energy deals with other suppliers. Now if that is the case, then I can see that as a cause for concern... but that would be a foolish agreement for the Europeans to sign on to.
 
#141
#141
AM64 said:
Future worth. Sell cheap and get the fish hooked and without alternatives, then you apply the screws. You have to quit thinking like we always do, and think more along the long term Oriental lines. As Americans, we expect others to think and scheme like we do - they don't.
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But what you are describing is Western logic. No different than some of these debt traps that the US/IMF/World Bank makes to developing countries (cast the line/set the hook), but then we get sanctimoniosly outraged if the Chinese mimic this in Africa and Asia.
 
#142
#142
Rasputin_Vol said:
People keep saying that like it is a valid point. The question should be obvious..
Why aren't we using natural gas more?

If anything, saying that makes the case for our country being inefficient and unnecessary dependent on energy exports.
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We are a stupid shortsighted people that allow our country to be ran in 4 year increments instead of long term plans.
 
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#143
#143
Rasputin_Vol said:
There isn't any evidence that Gazprom is locking these countries in on exclusive deals... meaning they can only buy from Gazprom and not have energy deals with other suppliers. Now if that is the case, then I can see that as a cause for concern... but that would be a foolish agreement for the Europeans to sign on to.
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That wasn't really the point. When one power source is overly attractive, the alternatives are allowed to fall by the wayside - then you set the hook.

For example, in the US we have invested in NG electrical generation recently because it was cheap and easy to add to the power grid - minimal construction cost and regulation. Now that coal and NG are becoming "environmentally unacceptable" there's little option for replacing aging coal and nuclear plants; so NG will be the choice at any cost (environmental or monetary) - we've painted ourselves into a corner. Nuclear plants take years to build, are extremely expensive, and the regulation for a site license is a nightmare. Virtually every US nuclear plant is running on an extended license and past the design life. Coal plants are even older. Few people seem to have a clue or even care how screwed we are ... and incredibly we plan to go to all electric vehicles.
 
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#144
#144
AM64 said:
That wasn't really the point. When one power source is overly attractive, the alternatives are allowed to fall by the wayside - then you set the hook.
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...we've painted ourselves into a corner.
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Even in that instance, I still say it would be foolish for the Europeans to allow themselves to become a victim in that scenario, also. Even if one source of energy is extremely cheap, you still have to be flexible with your energy sources. Just like a power company should have a good balance of coal, nuclear, hydro and gas. Forget about being trapped on price by a sneaky or dubious partner, you have to maintain a flexible balance to manage disturbances that can happen through acts of nature (drought can affect hydro, hurricanes in the gulf can affect gas prices, etc.) or normal market price spikes due to unusual increased demand in the sector.

The scenario that you are describing represents poor planning by the Europeans... not some nefarious plot by Gazprom/Putin.
 
#145
#145
No one is refuting or fact checking the allegations Gazprom and Putin are making.

Nord Stream 2 Loaded With Gas & Ready To Stabilize Europe Energy Prices: Putin | ZeroHedge


On the same day in a separate venue and interview, a high ranking Kremlin official blasted Europe's soaring gas prices as but a crisis of its own making, due largely to its poor planning. Deputy Prime Minister Alexander Novak said, "It is difficult to say when the high prices period will end. In my opinion, there must be a gas supply covering the demand in Europe in full scope. Appropriate reserves in underground gas storages must be created, required to reliably pass through the winter season."

That's when he added: "If the greater portion of consumption in Europe is supported on account of long-term deliveries from Russia, Algeria, and Norway, then the situation with prices will be more stable," Novak said. "One of the reasons for the energy crisis in Europe is lack of planning," the official asserted. European officials, he said, placed too many hopes on the market, "on spot gas deliveries, which are present today and missing tomorrow."
 
#146
#146
Rasputin_Vol said:
Even in that instance, I still say it would be foolish for the Europeans to allow themselves to become a victim in that scenario, also. Even if one source of energy is extremely cheap, you still have to be flexible with your energy sources. Just like a power company should have a good balance of coal, nuclear, hydro and gas. Forget about being trapped on price by a sneaky or dubious partner, you have to maintain a flexible balance to manage disturbances that can happen through acts of nature (drought can affect hydro, hurricanes in the gulf can affect gas prices, etc.) or normal market price spikes due to unusual increased demand in the sector.

The scenario that you are describing represents poor planning by the Europeans... not some nefarious plot by Gazprom/Putin.
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Western thinking/logic tends to be reactionary and increasingly knee jerk short term response, and Asians know well how to exploit that. Our own fondness for NG power generation at the expense of better long term solutions is just one example of that expediency. As you say, poor planning by our "leadership"; and as hog says, because we are on a four year planning cycle ... at best. We even have huge bureaucracies dedicated to planning, "development", regulation, etc that simply think in the short term and are guided by the whims of congressional clowns who don't know much about anything other than staying in office.

Remember we used to have Civil Defense and stocked bunkers etc that morphed into other agencies; and when covid struck, where was the preparedness? Think TX power last winter; and New Orleans and hurricanes, and the lack of accountability afterwards despite tons of money spent.
 
#147
#147
We are gradually seeing narratives crumble...

EU Seeks To Classify Some Natural Gas And Nuclear As Green | ZeroHedge

EU's New Green Definition

The EU Drafts a New Definition of Green that includes nuclear and natural gas.

The European Union has drawn up plans to label some natural gas and nuclear energy projects as "green" investments after a year-long battle between governments over which investments are truly climate-friendly.​
​
The European Commission is expected to propose rules in January deciding whether gas and nuclear projects will be included in the EU "sustainable finance taxonomy".​
​
Gas and nuclear power generation would be labelled green on the grounds that they are "transitional" activities - defined as those that are not fully sustainable, but which have emissions below industry average and do not lock in polluting assets.​
 
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#148
#148
Rasputin_Vol said:
We are gradually seeing narratives crumble...

EU Seeks To Classify Some Natural Gas And Nuclear As Green | ZeroHedge

EU's New Green Definition

The EU Drafts a New Definition of Green that includes nuclear and natural gas.

The European Union has drawn up plans to label some natural gas and nuclear energy projects as "green" investments after a year-long battle between governments over which investments are truly climate-friendly.​
​
The European Commission is expected to propose rules in January deciding whether gas and nuclear projects will be included in the EU "sustainable finance taxonomy".​
​
Gas and nuclear power generation would be labelled green on the grounds that they are "transitional" activities - defined as those that are not fully sustainable, but which have emissions below industry average and do not lock in polluting assets.​
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Nuclear power is as green as digging up the materials necessary for solar power and magic batteries that are somehow charged at no cost to the environment. The lies the greenies tell are whoppers. All this doesn't even touch on the standby power sources and related costs when solar and wind can't produce ... imagine the cost of keeping an idle auto assembly line staffed and ready to roll in case somebody decided to buy a car. We could just drop nuclear completely and go with NG generation as "green" ... assuming putting all the eggs in one basket and loving price gouging for lack of competition is acceptable, but ask TX about that plan.
 
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