So much for global warming.

[BigPapaVol]

I have no doubt that anthropogenic global warming is real. I just don't buy the cataclysmic set of future events that we are in the process of causing.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I have no doubt that anthropogenic global warming is real. I just don't buy the cataclysmic set of future events that we are in the process of causing.

+1

The planet has "taken a beating before" and survived. And the planet took climate change in the 1600's quite well. Yes, there were deaths in large numbers...but put today's technology back then and the survival rate increases exponentially. Maybe Europe should have stopped all of those smokestacks then. Or started a recyling program. Or better yet, perhaps those methane emitting cows on the loose should have suffered the fate of a butcher's massacre.

 

[TennTradition]

I have no doubt that anthropogenic global warming is real. I just don't buy the cataclysmic set of future events that we are in the process of causing.

I certainly don't buy a lot of the cataclysmic claims, either. 30 ft. sea level rise and super-hurricanes destroying cities sounds more like an ABC Saturday night movie than reality. However, I also know that if we warm enough for the permafrost to melt (and possibly even if we don't warm that much), we stand at a serious risk of suffering from massive fresh water shortages across the world in areas that depend on snow melt throughout the spring and into the summer.

I personally don't think that climate change is going to bring the US anything it can't pay to adapt to. As for poorer areas of the world, that probably isn't the case...I just hope that we are ready to pony up the money to help them adapt (desalinization plants, re-claiming land, etc.) by giving them some of the money we 'saved' by burning cheaper fossil fuels....should the need for said aid arise. (and to be clear..."we" here implies more than just the US...also to be clear, our innovation has been achieved on the back of things like a solid energy supply, and our innovation is not helping these 'poorer' countries, so I don't mean to imply we owe them everything).

 

[volinbham]

Dave Attell's take:

Not work safe or for tender ears

YouTube - Racist Dinosaur - Dave Attell

 

[g8terh8ter_eric]

It's all these Vegans fault.

 

[overseasorange2]

So the distance from the sun has varied that much in the last 200 years?

You are right, I think the sun is just burning out. It will probably just turn off in 2012. I for one am stocking up on long underwear.

 

[IPorange]

I have no doubt that anthropogenic global warming is real. I just don't buy the cataclysmic set of future events that we are in the process of causing.

I agree, I don't think we are going to alter life on Earth as we know it through climate change. But I think we will make life for us humans (in poorer areas) a little more miserable, as well as further disrupt an already greatly altered natural environment.

To an extent, that is an unavoidable side effect to have 6 and a half billion people and growing.

 

[lumberjack4]

How does climate change make poor people miserable?

 

[IPorange]

You are right, I think the sun is just burning out. It will probably just turn off in 2012. I for one am stocking up on long underwear.

I'm just saying, while the Sun is obviously the engine that drives all of Earth's climate (and all of Earth's life), it's output has changed radically enough to account for climate fluctuations on that time scale. On longer time scales the distance between the Sun and the Earth does have a pronounced effect (Milankovitch cycles). But there are many other factors that at play in climate than just the Sun. It's just the energy source.

It's silly to play "doctor" and pick a diagnosis (it's all just the Sun) without ever having really studied or looked at the topic.

 

[IPorange]

How does climate change make poor people miserable?

climate change can exasperate droughts and desertification, that a poor farmer in Africa is ill-equipped to deal with in either infrastructure or lost income. It can alter animal activities or migrations, leaving people without their previous source of food or income. And on and on, I am sure you've heard this stuff before.

When I say poor people, I don't mean anyone in the United States. I mean deeply impoverished people with no safety net.

 

[TennTradition]

How does climate change make poor people miserable?

These are areas that can't afford land reclamation if sea levels do rise, forcing populations to migrate and escalate tensions of war over land. If temperatures warm and result in less snow fall in mountain areas surrounding these populations, they would see severe water shortages during the time of year they rely on snow melt - and these populations won't be able to afford the construction of desalinization plants, for example.

Those are a few examples, in addition to the concerns that IP pointed out, of how life could get pretty miserable if you can't afford to adapt.

 

[lumberjack4]

climate change can exasperate droughts and desertification, that a poor farmer in Africa is ill-equipped to deal with in either infrastructure or lost income. It can alter animal activities or migrations, leaving people without their previous source of food or income. And on and on, I am sure you've heard this stuff before.

When I say poor people, I don't mean anyone in the United States. I mean deeply impoverished people with no safety net.

I see, I thought you were referring to the US only. But the world has heated and cooled throughout its entire history and people have adapted. I don't agree to the premise, that I believe you're implying, that people will just stand around and die if living in an area becomes inhospitable.

 

[IPorange]

I see, I thought you were referring to the US only. But the world has heated and cooled throughout its entire history and people have adapted. I don't agree to the premise, that I believe you're implying, that people will just stand around and die if living in an area becomes inhospitable.

That's like saying we've had depressions before and people survived and adapted. It's easier to say in hindsight. There is suffering and loss while it is happening that is a lot harder to minimize.

And throughout history, we have never been so numerous and widespread. There are no new places to move to to adapt. We're a crowded fish tank. There are going to be some floaters.

 

[TennTradition]

I see, I thought you were referring to the US only. But the world has heated and cooled throughout its entire history and people have adapted. I don't agree to the premise, that I believe you're implying, that people will just stand around and die if living in an area becomes inhospitable.

People won't just stand around and die - but if there are stresses placed on their habitat that they can't just pay their way out of, they will act. These actions will be a source of the misery, too, though if you consider increased conflict over food/water.

One thing that is different here, as well, is that climate change in the past has been (generally) on the scale of 1000s of years, not 100s of years, this increases the stress of adaptation because it forces it to happen faster.

Furthermore, the stress/adaptation that was imposed in the past was out of our control....the argument is that if we are indeed bringing this upon the world, is it right to do nothing about it.

IP, correct me if I am wrong on the time scale argument, you know that better than I do.

 

[IPorange]

There is some debate about the time span of a shift in climate. It used to be thought it was several hundred to over a thousand years, but now there is some evidence that it can occur over as little as several decades. There probably isn't a hard and fast rule on that and it varies due to whatever positive and negative feedbacks are in play.

Current change as we have observed it is on the faster side of things, for sure. But maybe not unprecedented in speed.

 

[TennTradition]

There is some debate about the time span of a shift in climate. It used to be thought it was several hundred to over a thousand years, but now there is some evidence that it can occur over as little as several decades. There probably isn't a hard and fast rule on that and it varies due to whatever positive and negative feedbacks are in play.

Current change as we have observed it is on the faster side of things, for sure. But maybe not unprecedented in speed.

Thanks.

In that case, the bigger impact would be population density of the distressed populations, not so much the time scale needed to adapt, when comparing to past climate stresses.

 

[volfanjustin]

I see, I thought you were referring to the US only. But the world has heated and cooled throughout its entire history and people have adapted. I don't agree to the premise, that I believe you're implying, that people will just stand around and die if living in an area becomes inhospitable.

Exactly, climate change has occured since the beiginning of time, we as human beings can't cause it or stop it.

 

[IPorange]

Thanks.

In that case, the bigger impact would be population density of the distressed populations, not so much the time scale needed to adapt, when comparing to past climate stresses.

The difference in this change and others is really that there are so many people, just about everywhere where people can easily live. There is no happy hunting grounds to move to.

Also, there hasn't been a major climate change in 11,000 years (used to be much colder). Life has changed a fair amount since then.

 

[IPorange]

Exactly, climate change has occured since the beiginning of time, we as human beings can't cause it or stop it.

Where did anyone say climate hasn't always changed? Link? That's what I am doing as a career, is studying past climate change.

Do you think volcanic eruptions can alter climate?

 

[droski]

The difference in this change and others is really that there are so many people, just about everywhere where people can easily live. There is no happy hunting grounds to move to.

there are literally thousands of acres of empty land in the middle of this country.

 

[IPorange]

there are literally thousands of acres of empty land in the middle of this country.

As I said before, the US is the exception. We're one of the best positioned, along with Canada.

And it's empty because it wasn't as good for farming or other uses as the lands that are settled in the first place.

 

[KB5252]

Where did anyone say climate hasn't always changed? Link? That's what I am doing as a career, is studying past climate change.

Do you think volcanic eruptions can alter climate?

I certainly do, it has in the past. In fact if I understand correctly there is some debate going on about that right now. Some believe that underwater volcanic activity seems to be on an upswing, there is certainly more subterranean activity going on in North America right now. Gases have killed many trees in some areas and in these areas access to national parks has been restricted hasn't it?

 

[lumberjack4]

As far as I see it. There's not really anything we can do. While I'm not saying that climate change isn't happening, I don't buy into the fact that we, humans, are leading the world to an apocalypse. We have little control over whether things get warmer or hotter. The climate is mostly comprised of sun activity. Take the sun away and its -600 degrees. Knowing that I don't see how we can make the planet hotter or colder enough to even register on the scale. The climate is in constant flux and will be in constant flux. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was accepted science that the 1600's and 1700's was part of a 'mini Ice Age'

 

[volfanjustin]

Where did anyone say climate hasn't always changed? Link? That's what I am doing as a career, is studying past climate change.

Do you think volcanic eruptions can alter climate?[/QUOTE]

Most people want to make climate change out to be man made, which is false. The first clue is that I remember seeing a Time Magazine cover in the 80s ( if I remember correctly) that said we were headed for an ice age, then many of those same people changed their arguement to global warming now to climate change. For those in power that are arguing this false notion, it's not about the climate it's about taking money from evil corporations and powerful countries and spreading the wealth around to smaller poorer countries.

Yes I do.

 

[IPorange]

Where did anyone say climate hasn't always changed? Link? That's what I am doing as a career, is studying past climate change.

Do you think volcanic eruptions can alter climate?[

Most people want to make climate change out to be man made, which is false. The first clue is that I remember seeing a Time Magazine cover in the 80s ( if I remember correctly) that said we were headed for an ice age, then many of those same people changed their arguement to global warming now to climate change. For those in power that are arguing this false notion, it's not about the climate it's about taking money from evil corporations and powerful countries and spreading the wealth around to smaller poorer countries.

Yes I do.

So then what is different about tons and tons of gasses and particulate being released into the atmosphere by a volcano, and the tons and tons released into the air by cars, factories, and industry?