So, when is the press conference?

[glv98]

Continuously asking to cite a person who has publicly said that Lady Vol basketball is irrelevant as a recruiting tool is silly. Common sense would dictate that coaches recruiting the same players will say anything behind closed doors to get those players. Looking around, and maybe comparing apples to oranges, blue blood programs in all sports that had fallen out of NC contention for any period of time has had the same said about them in regards to relevance. Ohio State, Michigan, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, UCLA, Alabama, etc….all hit a stretch of mediocrity after big name coaches left those programs. And coaches were telling recruits that they had become irrelevant. It happens. You don’t think it didn’t happen with Shula at Alabama, Cooper at tOSU or say a John Blake at Oklahoma? Hell, even Texas has had to deal with that narrative for the past 20 years. The biggest hire schools made that turned things to an upward projection was not splash hires in coaching but of AD’s that understood the landscape. Saying programs are irrelevant happens. Stop getting all twisted over it.

thank you. That's why I didn't answer it. It just seems so obvious. I mean losing relevance, and trying to regain it, is exactly why we are where we are. Sorry I don't have a video of Dawn Staley saying it to a recruit.

 

[brittannica]

Has CKC met with the team again today? Is Jewel staying or leaving?

one of the interviews said team meeting today and then workouts start next week.

 

[alexvol]

Ah, I do appreciate the sincere flattery but, uh, really what has your knickers in such a massive wad?

As for risk, there is risk in parachuting out of an airplane but there is more risk in jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. It behooves one to know the difference.

Let's be clear. After Kellie was fired, the White fan boys were assuring all who would listen that White would not tolerate anything but having a championship caliber team and that he would definitely land a Hammon, or Staley, or a Gottlieb.

Even as we moved down the hierarchy of prospects, Coach Caldwell never, ever got mentioned as a potential candidate until the twitter bomb dropped on Sunday that she was in contract negotiations. Up until that point, no one envisioned a first year D1 coach from a sub mid-major program getting the job. When those reports dropped, the White fan boys then proclaimed, our genius AD is dropping disinfo to throw everyone off the trail. He is hiring someone now playing in the title game, bank on it!!!!!

For me, it is the stark contrast between these pie-in-the-sky predictions, the actual outcome, and the post hoc rationalizations that I find interesting and kind of fun to poke at since it sets some into a frenzy of outrage to question, in any way, the Diety who hired Josh Heupel.

Let us all hope that this particular gamble has a BIG payoff.

For the record, CKC is certainly passing all the initial tests with flying colors. The more substantive early test is fast approaching with respect to the portal (who she can bring in and who she can keep from the current roster).

Go Lady Vols and may Danny White, our father who are art in the AD office, watch over us all.....

I am most familiar with the risks of jumping out of a plane with and without a parachute having spent 28 years in the Army .....going thru Airborne School/Ranger School and assigned to the 101st Airborne Division after graduation from Airborne School and many other combat assignments during those 28 years.So I am familiar with risks and odds or whatever.....and for that matter rewards when one takes a risk with hot lead flying around their ass.
What chaps my you know what are those people who profess to know what the future holds and denigrate Leaders who are responsible for hiring or promotion of those to lead/manage organizations.......you do not know what the future holds and neither does anyone else.There are mistakes made by those Leaders no doubt about that and there are successes also.But none of those dealing with Athletics are life or death decisions

It is apparent that you have a burr in your derriere about White . Why ,I have no idea other than your essay above which is no reason at all to me . I confess I do admire leaders who are willing to make decisions which have the potential to make improvements to an organization which is struggling rather than sit on their hands and watch the existing leadership continue to muddle along in mediocracy .

 

[madtownvol]

I am most familiar with the risks of jumping out of a plane with and without a parachute having spent 28 years in the Army .....going thru Airborne School/Ranger School and assigned to the 101st Airborne Division after graduation from Airborne School and many other combat assignments during those 28 years.So I am familiar with risks and odds or whatever.....and for that matter rewards when one takes a risk with hot lead flying around their ass.
What chaps my you know what are those people who profess to know what the future holds and denigrate Leaders who are responsible for hiring or promotion of those to lead/manage organizations.......you do not know what the future holds and neither does anyone else.There are mistakes made by those Leaders no doubt about that and there are successes also.But none of those dealing with Athletics are life or death decisions

It is apparent that you have a burr in your derriere about White . Why ,I have no idea other than your essay above which is no reason at all to me . I confess I do admire leaders who are willing to make decisions which have the potential to make improvements to an organization which is struggling rather than sit on their hands and watch the existing leadership continue to muddle along in mediocracy .

Thank you for your service.

 

[papatomany]

A contrarian would say that White was saying what he had to say under the circumstances. Couldn't exactly say, "We thought we'd get a big name coach with a track record of success at the highest level and a pipeline to the top high school talent. Instead, we had to settle for a great person who has coached one season at the D1 level and plays a high-risk brand of basketball which may or not match our returning roster. And who has no experience recruiting at this level.". Much better to tout this as the direction he wanted to go all along...even if that places unfair expectations upon Kim.

I like and trust Kim a whole lot better than I do White.

I don't think he "settled", nor do I think Danny himself thinks he "settled". I don't know exactly how these coaching searches actually work, but I can almost guarantee they don't start with a large ranked list, call the first one, wait around, get rejected, call the second one...etc.

More likely they throw out feelers to 100 or so prospects, quickly weeding out the ones who aren't interested at all, have zoom interviews with a bunch of the ones left, eliminating more from that, then have in person interviews, and start making offers. I'd be stunned if actual OFFERS went beyond three and wouldn't be surprised at all if Kim was the first real offer.

 

[papatomany]

Ah, I do appreciate the sincere flattery but, uh, really what has your knickers in such a massive wad?

As for risk, there is risk in parachuting out of an airplane but there is more risk in jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. It behooves one to know the difference.

Let's be clear. After Kellie was fired, the White fan boys were assuring all who would listen that White would not tolerate anything but having a championship caliber team and that he would definitely land a Hammon, or Staley, or a Gottlieb.

Even as we moved down the hierarchy of prospects, Coach Caldwell never, ever got mentioned as a potential candidate until the twitter bomb dropped on Sunday that she was in contract negotiations. Up until that point, no one envisioned a first year D1 coach from a sub mid-major program getting the job. When those reports dropped, the White fan boys then proclaimed, our genius AD is dropping disinfo to throw everyone off the trail. He is hiring someone now playing in the title game, bank on it!!!!!

For me, it is the stark contrast between these pie-in-the-sky predictions, the actual outcome, and the post hoc rationalizations that I find interesting and kind of fun to poke at since it sets some into a frenzy of outrage to question, in any way, the Diety who hired Josh Heupel.

Let us all hope that this particular gamble has a BIG payoff.

For the record, CKC is certainly passing all the initial tests with flying colors. The more substantive early test is fast approaching with respect to the portal (who she can bring in and who she can keep from the current roster).

Go Lady Vols and may Danny White, our father who are art in the AD office, watch over us all.....

Again, soooooo happy we didn't waste this opportunity on Gottlieb.

 

[beneVOLence]

Her boss told the new coach and the public what his goals for her the first year. Show improvement over this year next year. Leave good behind and head toward great. He called for immediate progress.

Maybe forced out of their usual pattern by playing a much better team than they're use to and in an elimination game. LOL that calls alot of coaches home to Jesus on their rotation.

I couldn't care less what White said. My goal is for to at least make the tournament anything over that will be gravy. So if she comes in 5th or 6th in the SEC next year and 2nd o 3rd the following year, you are considering her a failure?

 

[th2421]

one of the interviews said team meeting today and then workouts start next week.

Yep, and I think more one-on-one conversations happening tomorrow.

 

[papatomany]

Just want to get this out for the "won't work in the SEC" crowd. It should look like Nolan Richardson's "40 minutes of hell", which they also said wouldn't work in the SEC. His guys swarmed for 40 minutes, just as advertised, gave up some dunks, which didn't affect his strategy in the least, got bunches of turnovers, and were top 5 in 3 point attempts every year. A very few players averaged over 30 minutes a game, and usually 9 to 11 of them averaged over 10 minutes a game.
It took him to year three to be truly competitive, and starting that year you groaned when you saw them next up on the schedule. If he had had the portal to work with, it would have been year one.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Continuously asking to cite a person who has publicly said that Lady Vol basketball is irrelevant as a recruiting tool is silly.

No, it's not. I was asking the poster to simply support a claim that they made. The poster wasn't talking about anything said behind closed doors. The poster made the claim that it had been done publicly. I don't believe that for a second. The poster was full of bull $hit.

 

[turbovol]

He wanted to be bold. Look no further than his hiring history. He’s never hired a well-known established coach. It’s mostly worked out for him but at some point in the future, I think it would be wise to go after big fish.

He's never been at a big program before. He was Buffalo and then Central Florida. You're not hiring established coaches at those schools--and, yea, so far he hasn't done here. Heupel had one very nice season, with a transfer QB, but one season does not make a successful SEC coach. We'll see how he does going forward--it's a big (too big) and very tough conference. White's soccer hire was lame--didn't even conduct a search. And this is his third hire.

There is something to be said about hiring coaches who've proven themselves at the level at which you compete--which is why nearly all established major men's programs hire other major coaches. Kentucky isn't going to hire somebody with one year of mid-major experience. The women's game seems a bit different. It's a mixed bag of coaches in the SEC--and half a dozen who've been hired in the last 2/3 years. I'm not at all convinced SEC coaching is particularly strong; nobody outside of SC and LSU went very far in the NCAA this season--and I don't anyone did last season either. Alabama finished 4th in the SEC this year--and it was pretty much the only fairly good year their coach as had in 11 seasons. I think she's had two .500+ conference records in 11.

 

[Amb3096]

Am I wrong or did Pat not use the 1-2-1-1 and the and If I remember the 2-1-2 for a change-up back in the 90's with quite a bit of success at this level. I liked her version of the 1-2-1-1 so much that I ran it with my middle school boys with a great deal of success. Been a long time so I could be wrong on my memory of Pats exact presses but I do remember she loved to run the press to create turnovers on her opponents by speeding them up.

I recall them doing that in the 1997 championship game. Ticha Penicheiro was the best PG of her her generation, and they hounded her defensively and sped things up. She coughed up the ball a ton in that game IIRC.

 

[Amb3096]

Why? We won that many and made it to the round of 32 this year and would probably have won 20 and made it back to at least that same place next year.

It is not like she is building from a team with a losing record who had never been to the NCAA before.

Unlikely. Without serious help from the portal, this was a lower tier SEC team with the current roster. I wouldn't have been surprised if they missed the tournament altogether.

 

[alexvol]

Thank you for your service.

Madtown ,I have always respected your views , knowledge and articulation of those views on all the boards thru the years and still do . Your posts on this subject just hit me at the wrong time and was like throwing sand in my eyes on the beach......stung me and elicited a strong response .I have seen leaders under duress that make no decision when one was needed immediately; and ,I have seen leaders make decisions that cost lives in the process and when reviewing those decisions retrospectively I have had a hard time distinguishing whether some were right or wrong.Therefore ,I am loathe to criticize Leaders in their decision making especially in making personnel decisions for leaders of organizations .....until well after the fact.

I may come around to your view on AD White .....I hope not from a Lady Vol perspective because my hope is that the new coach will be enormously successful .Then again...if two/three years from now your and other predictions in this thread come true that Lady Vol program has not significantly improved and they indeed are not competing for SEC /National Championships....I will be critical of the hire and be lobbying for a change.

 

[madtownvol]

Just want to get this out for the "won't work in the SEC" crowd. It should look like Nolan Richardson's "40 minutes of hell", which they also said wouldn't work in the SEC. His guys swarmed for 40 minutes, just as advertised, gave up some dunks, which didn't affect his strategy in the least, got bunches of turnovers, and were top 5 in 3 point attempts every year. A very few players averaged over 30 minutes a game, and usually 9 to 11 of them averaged over 10 minutes a game.
It took him to year three to be truly competitive, and starting that year you groaned when you saw them next up on the schedule. If he had had the portal to work with, it would have been year one.

That motto was also Matthew Mitchell's mantra at KY and he definitely moved them up in the hierarchy, with his best year being 2011-12 season, winning the SEC conference and making it to the elite 8 and then finishing 2nd in conference and making another elite round the next season. After that season, things plateaued and to be honest, slipped with KY finishing anywhere from 4th to 9th. But in the heyday, it was really effective, even if KY could not quite get over the hump to make it to the final four.

I have been one of the skeptics of this style working at this level but there is evidence that this it can indeed work pretty well.

One caution from the KY example, and the declining effectiveness Mitchell's style in more recent years, might be that the skill level of WCBB players has been getting better and better. Today, there are more and more players who have the handles and passing skills to break presses and to find good shots late in the shot clock.

 

[turbovol]

Just want to get this out for the "won't work in the SEC" crowd. It should look like Nolan Richardson's "40 minutes of hell", which they also said wouldn't work in the SEC. His guys swarmed for 40 minutes, just as advertised, gave up some dunks, which didn't affect his strategy in the least, got bunches of turnovers, and were top 5 in 3 point attempts every year. A very few players averaged over 30 minutes a game, and usually 9 to 11 of them averaged over 10 minutes a game.
It took him to year three to be truly competitive, and starting that year you groaned when you saw them next up on the schedule. If he had had the portal to work with, it would have been year one.

Richardson was a great coach and he had some great teams. To play that style you need a /bunch/ of good athletes and shooters--not just a couple. Shaka Smart's VCU team played that way for a season and I think got to the Final Four. But in the last couple of games they played, VCU's 3-point shooting went in the toilet, I think because their legs were gone in the last 10 minutes. I don't his Marquette teams play that way.

 

[alexvol]

I recall them doing that in the 1997 championship game. Ticha Penicheiro was the best PG of her her generation, and they hounded her defensively and sped things up. She coughed up the ball a ton in that game IIRC.

I also believe she used 3/4 zone press against Stanford in a championship game ( forgot the year) which completely discombobulated Stanford and led to a sound defeat of Stanford.

 

[volbeast33]

He's never been at a big program before. He was Buffalo and then Central Florida. You're not hiring established coaches at those schools--and, yea, so far he hasn't done here. Heupel had one very nice season, with a transfer QB, but one season does not make a successful SEC coach. We'll see how he does going forward--it's a big (too big) and very tough conference. White's soccer hire was lame--didn't even conduct a search. And this is his third hire.

There is something to be said about hiring coaches who've proven themselves at the level at which you compete--which is why nearly all established major men's programs hire other major coaches. Kentucky isn't going to hire somebody with one year of mid-major experience. The women's game seems a bit different. It's a mixed bag of coaches in the SEC--and half a dozen who've been hired in the last 2/3 years. I'm not at all convinced SEC coaching is particularly strong; nobody outside of SC and LSU went very far in the NCAA this season--and I don't anyone did last season either. Alabama finished 4th in the SEC this year--and it was pretty much the only fairly good year their coach as had in 11 seasons. I think she's had two .500+ conference records in 11.

Danny White is not some newbie…. He comes from a family of ADs….. His dad, Kevin White was the AD at Notre Dame and Duke. DW is considered a top 5 AD in the entire country. DW would have loved to hire Dawn or someone similar… He just isnt interested in second tier and below coaches… The type of coach who has coached several years and doesn’t have a championship to show for it. He wants a competitive winning coaches who have a fun, innovative style.

Do we really want to follow Kentucky’s lead…. They give out bonuses/guaranteed contracts for reaching 7 wins in football.

 

[alexvol]

That motto was also Matthew Mitchell's mantra and KY and he definitely moved them up in the hierarchy, with his best year being 2011-12 season, winning the SEC conference and making it to the elite 8 and then finishing 2nd and making another elite round the next season. After that season, things plateaued and to be honest, slipped with KY finishing anywhere from 4th to 9th. But in the heyday, it was really effective, even if KY could not quite get over the hump to make it to the final four.

I have been of the skeptics of this style working at this level but there is evidence that this style can work pretty well.

One caution from the KY example, and the declining effectiveness Mitchell's style in more recent years, might be that the skill level of WCBB players has been getting better and better. Today, there are more and more players who have the handles and passing skills to break presses and to find good shots late in the shot clock.

The last two years of Mitchell's reign ,I believe were effected by his medical condition .....

 

[papatomany]

Richardson was a great coach and he had some great teams. To play that style you need a /bunch/ of good athletes and shooters--not just a couple. Shaka Smart's VCU team played that way for a season and I think got to the Final Four. But in the last couple of games they played, VCU's 3-point shooting went in the toilet, I think because their legs were gone in the last 10 minutes. I don't his Marquette teams play that way.

Shaka played that way the whole time at VCU ("Havoc!" they called it), but quit it once he got to Texas. Seemed wrong, since that's what Texas thought they were getting.

Part of my point was that Richardson was already seeing really good results before he actually had a bunch of good athletes, and still had plenty of success in years when he had a lot of shooters and a shortage of makers.

 

[turbovol]

Shaka played that way the whole time at VCU ("Havoc!" they called it), but quit it once he got to Texas. Seemed wrong, since that's what Texas thought they were getting.

Part of my point was that Richardson was already seeing really good results before he actually had a bunch of good athletes, and still had plenty of success in years when he had a lot of shooters and a shortage of makers.

One thing seem obvious: White sent the word to communications to play up this hire, big-time. Have you seen the promotional/introductory spread on UTSports.com? It is grand, comprehensive and over-the-top: It couldn't be more triumphant if we'd brought M. McGraw out of retirement or hired Candace Parker. Regal treatment.

 

[BowlBrother85]

thank you. That's why I didn't answer it. It just seems so obvious. I mean losing relevance, and trying to regain it, is exactly why we are where we are. Sorry I don't have a video of Dawn Staley saying it to a recruit.

You said something that you are unable to support, and you are either too proud or too stubborn to admit it.

You made the claim that someone had publicly said that Tennessee's women's basketball program was irrelevant, and then they used that claim as a recruiting and publicity tool against Tennessee. When pressed to be specific as to who it was, you have done nothing but dissemble. You have even doubled that it has happened frequently, and that it is both widespread and commonly known. That is a common practice among people who have been caught making a false assertion, which they know they can't prove. It's basically, "EVERYBODY knows this! The problem is with you." It's an elementary-level debating tactic.

The issue here is not if such things are said in private to recruiting prospects and to their family members (by Dawn Staley or some other coach). The issue is whether or not there is anything on the public record, because that was your claim, and you arrogantly doubled down on it.

It was bull $hit, and we both know it. That is why you didn't answer. You are right about one thing : Your BS is obvious.

 

[glv98]

You said something that you are unable to support, and you are either too proud or too stubborn to admit it.

You made the claim that someone had publicly said that Tennessee's women's basketball program was irrelevant, and then they used that claim as a recruiting and publicity tool against Tennessee. When pressed to be specific as to who it was, you have done nothing but dissemble. You have even doubled that it has happened frequently, and that it is both widespread and commonly known. That is a common practice among people who have been caught making a false assertion, which they know they can't prove. It's basically, "EVERYBODY knows this! The problem is with you." It's an elementary-level debating tactic.

The issue here is not if such things are said in private to recruiting prospects and to their family members (by Dawn Staley or some other coach). The issue is whether or not there is anything on the public record, because that was your claim, and you arrogantly doubled down on it.

It was bull $hit, and we both know it. That is why you didn't answer. You are right about one thing : Your BS is obvious.

Last time, and I can't imagine why you're so crazed about this. Do you really mean to argue that no one has ever said in public the LV program is no longer nationally relevant? If you want "proof" watch any broadcast game of the LVs. Tell me you never hear something like "WBB is better when the LVs are relevant in the conversation" or "the LVs are trying to get back in the national conversation" or something like that. Here's a name: Steffi Sorenson said it on SEC network in her tourney preview, almost pleading for it to happen.

I just can't imagine you've never heard anything along those lines because it's obvious and it's the truth. This is such a non-issue. It's exactly why we have a new, moonshot coach. But if you need me to plead guilty in order for you to be able to move on, ok I'm guilty of stating the painfully obvious.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Do you really mean to argue that no one has ever said in public the LV program is no longer nationally relevant?

You are not following me, for some reason ....

I'm arguing that no opposing coach/player/AD has ever publicly said that the Tennessee women's basketball program was irrelevant and then used that as a "recruiting and publicity tool," which was your initial claim.

 

[turbovol]

I am most familiar with the risks of jumping out of a plane with and without a parachute having spent 28 years in the Army .....going thru Airborne School/Ranger School and assigned to the 101st Airborne Division after graduation from Airborne School and many other combat assignments during those 28 years.So I am familiar with risks and odds or whatever.....and for that matter rewards when one takes a risk with hot lead flying around their ass.
What chaps my you know what are those people who profess to know what the future holds and denigrate Leaders who are responsible for hiring or promotion of those to lead/manage organizations.......you do not know what the future holds and neither does anyone else.There are mistakes made by those Leaders no doubt about that and there are successes also.But none of those dealing with Athletics are life or death decisions

It is apparent that you have a burr in your derriere about White . Why ,I have no idea other than your essay above which is no reason at all to me . I confess I do admire leaders who are willing to make decisions which have the potential to make improvements to an organization which is struggling rather than sit on their hands and watch the existing leadership continue to muddle along in mediocracy .

You say you have "no idea" why some fans don't like the hire. Seriously? Since you are into military analogies, I'm quite sure the brass wouldn't pick a Lieutenant to lead a division in coming major battle. It would pick a general or other officer with lots more experience. It's as simple as that.

Also, one only has to look at LSU and what it's done and where it is now as a program and compare it to where we are and what we've done. We have a far stronger women's BB tradition, and yet we've seen LSU and other programs leapfrog us in recent years owing to their hires and our hires. We got into this fix precisely because we made a pair of small hires--one very small, one smallish--and now we've gone small again. It might work; Caldwell may succeed--I sincerely hope she does--and if she does White will look smart. And if she doesn't, he will have lost a lot of credibility. Some/many of us were hoping that we'd at last hire someone who's coaching status matched our status as a program.