So -- Why does healthcare cost so damn much? (warning: novel-length post)

#153
#153
utvolpj said:
but just because they don't all use it doesn't mean competition (or a market) doesn't exist. And it also doesn't mean people will always choose the lowest cost option either
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There is some element of competition in health care, but it's one of the least competitive industries that exists.
 
#154
#154
volinbham said:
what's crazier to me is that it is an HC thing.

with this logic what part of our lives or world is not an HC thing?
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just part of the plan. You could probably make a case for anything

milohimself said:
You can see how nearly everything has some impact on hc costs. It really does extend into most corners of our lives.
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so how far do you go to control it? How much money should be spent to lower costs?

nbakerld said:
There is some element of competition in health care, but it's one of the least competitive industries that exists.
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because of regulations and roadblocks that prevent it from becoming more competitive.

Do you think rates go up or down if I could buy my insurance from any provider in the US?
 
#155
#155
milohimself said:
You can see how nearly everything has some impact on hc costs. It really does extend into most corners of our lives.
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Yes but it doesn't then follow that HC decision makers or decision making should have control overall all these life corners.

When the research science officer at KP starts suggesting city planning should be done with lowering HC costs in mind I think we are going off the deep end - a HC uber alles model.
 
#156
#156
milohimself said:
There's gotta be a balance, and there has to be a way to rethink things so that better decisions can be made with minimal government intervention. These things should ideally happen organically
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Get government out:

Even policy like mandatory HMO's contributed to increasing costs.

Legalize the purchase of health insurance from out of state (more competition = lower premiums).
 
#158
#158
just wait until they abolish UT football because it increases blood pressure and alcohol consumption
 
#159
#159
volinbham said:
Yes but it doesn't then follow that HC decision makers or decision making should have control overall all these life corners.

When the research science officer at KP starts suggesting city planning should be done with lowering HC costs in mind I think we are going off the deep end - a HC uber alles model.
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That's why I said there needs to be some sort of way through it -- he said the same thing. But the fact is there are a lot of people in this country making a whole lot of poor individual choices that build up to put HC costs where it is.

Every time somebody chooses to get food at Taco Bell instead of the grocery store, or chooses to drive somewhere instead of carpool, bus, bike, walk, etc. or chooses not to buy health insurance then end up needing treatment they can't pay for out of pocket, all that stuff adds up.

That's what's meant by environment. About half a mile north of where I am, there's a small neighborhood that's sort of one of Portland's hipster meccas, and there are no fast food places, no corner stores for quite a while, only a couple of small co-op groceries, the parking arrangement is set up to make it far easier to walk or bike than to drive anywhere (this was not a result of city planning, the people who live there just have it set up that way) and the health outcomes of the people who live there are extremely good. Life expectancy is probably better, and I know that obesity rates and consequentially medical expenditures are among the lowest in the PDX metro area.

I am opposed to a top-down, government mandate approach for most things, I am much more prone to buy into education and action on a small local level improving outcomes rather than saying the government must make it so.

utvolpj said:
just wait until they abolish UT football because it increases blood pressure and alcohol consumption
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I don't think there's any doubt that watching UT football over the last decade has shaved a few years off the end of all our lives... :lol:
 
#160
#160
Summarily, if poor individual choices add up to create environments that promote poor individual choices and the problems build up from there, series of good individual choices ought to combine up to create an environment where making good individual choices becomes the default rather than something you have to go out of your way to do. This can happen organically with a relatively minimal amount of top down government involvement, which is something I think most of us would appreciate.
 
#162
#162
Not really, that neighborhood in particular has been a bit overtaken by "normal" families, but the setup has remained very much the same. The hipsters have mostly migrated to the SE part of town. This has only happened within the last 2-3 years.

It just made telling the story a bit easier.
 
#163
#163
That said, many there still do have their stupid girl jeans and stupid haircuts and stupid handrolled cigarettes and stupid glasses.
 
#164
#164
milohimself said:
Summarily, if poor individual choices add up to create environments that promote poor individual choices and the problems build up from there, series of good individual choices ought to combine up to create an environment where making good individual choices becomes the default rather than something you have to go out of your way to do. This can happen organically with a relatively minimal amount of top down government involvement, which is something I think most of us would appreciate.
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not all of us since it's easy to see what happens when gov't gets their foot in the door. The options already exist and the info is out there. Forcing people through gov't is just not worth it.
 
#166
#166
I agree for a number of reasons, including the one that I assume you have is that you are morally opposed to government involvement in day to day aspects of life.

Ever been to Europe or Japan? Did you notice how far out of your way you had to go to eat crappy food?
 
#168
#168
if the people want more healthy food and choose to force out the BK, McD, etc then it will happen. Having the gov't in a place where they are not wanted or needed is crazy. I feel the exact same with banning smoking in bars/restaurants
 
#169
#169
g8terh8ter_eric said:
You know, I'm not ashamed of my job, and I went to school to try and break into the IT field, and I do know a great deal about the field, it's just not happened yet. So, **** you and the horse you rode in on, since your generalizing by your post that I'm an uneducated fool. :censored:
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You felt like education wasn't a big deal, specifically a medical degree. I never called you a fool, but the shoe certainly does fit doesn't it?

PS: Please do not fornicate with any of my animals.
 
#171
#171
utvolpj said:
if the people want more healthy food and choose to force out the BK, McD, etc then it will happen. Having the gov't in a place where they are not wanted or needed is crazy. I feel the exact same with banning smoking in bars/restaurants
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Like it or not, the smoking laws are absolutely needed. There is 100% absolute definitive proof on the dangers of second hand smoke and smoking in public places is about a direct example as you can get of how one persons individual choice can and will screw somebody else over.

All this and I'm a smoker, but I go out of my way to find smoking shelters or do so unobtrusively as possible.
 
#172
#172
nbakerld said:
Portlandia, where the dream of the '90s is still alive.
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Did that show ever catch on?

I watched a few episodes and liked it, but a lot of the best humor was based on some legit idiosyncrasies that don't seem to be too well-known outside of town.
 
#173
#173
milohimself said:
Like it or not, the smoking laws are absolutely needed. There is 100% absolute definitive proof on the dangers of second hand smoke and smoking in public places is about a direct example as you can get of how one persons individual choice can and will screw somebody else over.

All this and I'm a smoker, but I go out of my way to find smoking shelters or do so unobtrusively as possible.
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Let the business decide for itself. You can't get second hand smoke at a restaurant if you never go there. Easiest and cheapest solution
 
#174
#174
milohimself said:
Did that show ever catch on?

I watched a few episodes and liked it, but a lot of the best humor was based on some legit idiosyncrasies that don't seem to be too well-known outside of town.
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I like it a lot and I've only been to Portland once. There are a lot of hipsters in Salt Lake City. The show has only been going since January, so it's hard to say it's going strong, but according to wikipedia the response has been good. Doesn't seem like it'd take a ton to keep you on air on IFC, either.
 
#175
#175
utvolpj said:
Let the business decide for itself. You can't get second hand smoke at a restaurant if you never go there. Easiest and cheapest solution
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Amen. One of my fears of "academia" stems from a history professor who one day claimed to be a libertarian and the next claimed the federal government should ban smoking in all public places because, "the states won't do it themselves". I'll never forget that. How could a Phd in history be so confused about his own political orientation?!!
 
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