Space Exploration

[Grand Vol]

Let’s ask Huff. He is a polymath

Yes, @n_huffhines does act strangely.

 

[Hunerwadel]

I looked it up and came up with conflicting info. It has to have mass with black hole?

Looks to exhibit properties of both

if you have found conflicting information and you are a curious person you will find the correct answer if it is one that has been tested and confirmed by the scientific method. If it is theory all bets are off. But whether or not a light has mass is settled and hasn't even been debated since the 1920s or so.

 

[LouderVol]

Is light a particle or a wave?

That's the point I am making.

There is the simple test they did where they were shooting a single photon at a light receptive film thru two openings. When they looked at the film only they got a distribution pattern of a wave. But when they watched the photon itself they only got a single point on the film.

Light somehow knows it's being observed, not saying its intelligent, but observation changed the results.

Its flipped for mass. When we try to observe the mass of the particle aspect of light we only get waves. Hence why we say it has no mass, we cant observe it with mass. But the way it interacts with certain things responds as if it has mass and not only a wave. Otherwise shadows would be impossible. Waves dont stop at people or solid objects.

 

[Orangeburst]

if you have found conflicting information and you are a curious person you will find the correct answer if it is one that has been tested and confirmed by the scientific method. If it is theory all bets are off. But whether or not a light has mass is settled and hasn't even been debated since the 1920s or so.

I was questioning if light would be a particle which I thought would have mass. Apparently it is a massless particle. Over my head.

 

[Orangeburst]

That's the point I am making.

There is the simple test they did where they were shooting a single photon at a light receptive film thru two openings. When they looked at the film only they got a distribution pattern of a wave. But when they watched the photon itself they only got a single point on the film.

Light somehow knows it's being observed, not saying its intelligent, but observation changed the results.

Its flipped for mass. When we try to observe the mass of the particle aspect of light we only get waves. Hence why we say it has no mass, we cant observe it with mass. But the way it interacts with certain things responds as if it has mass and not only a wave. Otherwise shadows would be impossible. Waves dont stop at people or solid objects.

Crazy stuff. I had heard that it changes depending on if it is being observed. Some science experiment show on tv

 

[LouderVol]

Crazy stuff. I had heard that it changes depending on if it is being observed. Some science experiment show on tv

The issue is we dont have any tool refined enough to "gauge" light. We have nothing to proof it against except itself. Which doesnt tell us much. Which is why there is conflict.

Its similar to how dark matter/energy is being inferred. We haven't proven it exists, but via observation we can know that there is something we are missing.

We need the giant super coliders to study what makes up protons. Imagine how much it would take to study something that doesnt have mass but acts like it does.

A couple of really funky theories, with no scientific back up, is light is some type of quantum particle, or is related to dark matter/energy. Which would be ironic if true.

 

[RikidyBones]

It takes one time to prove any law wrong. We just figured out earth is round. I doubt we know a damn thing about how the universe works or space travel. Everything is possible, at this point.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Question for you rocket scientists.

Space is a vacuum so that means there is no air of any kind, right? So how do rockets, thrusters, ext work in a vacuum? If there is nothing to push against how does that work?

The expanding gas in the nozzle supplies a forward force to the area of the nozzle.

 

[Grand Vol]

The expanding gas in the nozzle supplies a forward force to the area of the nozzle.

I was going to dumb it down even further.

"Farts come out your anus since the explosion in your rectal area leaves them nowhere else to go. If you farted hard enough, you could actually propel yourself forward."

(And wondering how many people just got a visual on someone farting so hard they move themselves forward)

 

[marcusluvsvols]

A particle has mass, it has substance, otherwise it is a wave.

It's my understanding a photon has mass the same way it can act as a wave or a particle under observation vs not. Basically if we try to measure its mass it acts like a wave, but if we dont measure it acts like a particle.

I too was very intrigued by our discussion here yesterday and did some more reading about light, waves, particles, relativity, etc...very interesting to say the least. A wave has no mass, it is more like a force? Then an object. It has energy, but no mass. Since light travels at the speed of ...light...which we believe to be the hard cap on velocity in our universe. Since it travels that fast, a particle cannot have any mass under special relativity laws, especially since it is also a wave. You make a very interesting point about shadows though...if light truly acted only as a wave, it would blow right thru anything..

 

[82_VOL_83]

Yeah but what was that gas pushing on to move the capsule?

The capsule

 

[82_VOL_83]

I was going to dumb it down even further.

"Farts come out your anus since the explosion in your rectal area leaves them nowhere else to go. If you farted hard enough, you could actually propel yourself forward."

(And wondering how many people just got a visual on someone farting so hard they move themselves forward)

Only if you stuck a nozzle up your butt. Exhausting into open space does little or nothing for propulsion.

 

[Grand Vol]

Only if you stuck a nozzle up your butt. Exhausting into open space does little or nothing for propulsion.

And...more visuals for the crowd at home!

 

[LouderVol]

I too was very intrigued by our discussion here yesterday and did some more reading about light, waves, particles, relativity, etc...very interesting to say the least. A wave has no mass, it is more like a force? Then an object. It has energy, but no mass. Since light travels at the speed of ...light...which we believe to be the hard cap on velocity in our universe. Since it travels that fast, a particle cannot have any mass under special relativity laws, especially since it is also a wave. You make a very interesting point about shadows though...if light truly acted only as a wave, it would blow right thru anything..

Also look at the idea of solar sails. If the science behind that is real, light has to have mass, otherwise it wouldn't go anywhere. You dont get kinetic energy out of thermal energy(or whatever energy a photon wave is) without some sort of mechanical exchange. Solar sail tech doesnt have that, it's literally a sail.

To pull a Spoc whenever you have eliminated the impossible, whatever is left (light having mass), no matter how improbable, becomes at least plausible. We cant prove it and wont prove it until we get past light. Until then we have this impossibility we can observe but not explain. To huners point, it's not science, but it's also not science fiction

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Also look at the idea of solar sails. If the science behind that is real, light has to have mass, otherwise it wouldn't go anywhere. You dont get kinetic energy out of thermal energy(or whatever energy a photon wave is) without some sort of mechanical exchange. Solar sail tech doesnt have that, it's literally a sail.

To pull a Spoc whenever you have eliminated the impossible, whatever is left (light having mass), no matter how improbable, becomes at least plausible. We cant prove it and wont prove it until we get past light. Until then we have this impossibility we can observe but not explain. To huners point, it's not science, but it's also not science fiction

I dont buy the solar sail crap...at least not yet. For the reason you stated. If it were possible, we could propel vehicles with huge lasers on Earth. I think it is just a fictional concept because we cant think of anything better...like those supposed drives that could create propulsion without any fuel, in violation of the law of conservation of mass/energy. I am just a dumb carpenter with a GED, but i am pretty well read, enough to know that those laws are solid.

We need to figure out light and gravity. Until we do, we arent going any further than a planet or so away from terra firma. If there is any truth to the aliens visiting here stories from pilots, aliens have already figured out gravity. Their ships can supposedly sit still in the sky for 12 hours at a time, then take off vertically at many thousands of mph...with no visible signs of propulsion or infrared propulsion signatures. That screams anti gravity to me...and once gravity is defeated or harnessed, IMO, thats when talk about light speed and star travel starts to sound realistic...once propulsion is no longer a factor.

Magnetism also fascinates me, and we have very little understanding of it, either. Why and how it behaves the way that it does is mysterious, just like gravity. Could magnetism be used to propel craft? It certainly generates a lot of force

 

[MercyPercy]

 

[TheDeeble]

I dont buy the solar sail crap...at least not yet. For the reason you stated. If it were possible, we could propel vehicles with huge lasers on Earth. I think it is just a fictional concept because we cant think of anything better...like those supposed drives that could create propulsion without any fuel, in violation of the law of conservation of mass/energy. I am just a dumb carpenter with a GED, but i am pretty well read, enough to know that those laws are solid.

I believe Japan has already had a successful solar sail test.

IKAROS - Wikipedia

 

[Hunerwadel]

I was going to dumb it down even further.

"Farts come out your anus since the explosion in your rectal area leaves them nowhere else to go. If you farted hard enough, you could actually propel yourself forward."

(And wondering how many people just got a visual on someone farting so hard they move themselves forward)

Of course if you farted and burped intensely enough at the same time you could turn yourself into a pinwheel. OK, maybe I should be banned from this thread.

 

[Hunerwadel]

I believe Japan has already had a successful solar sail test.

IKAROS - Wikipedia

Space X is scheduled to launch one later this month.

LightSail 2 set to launch next month aboard SpaceX Falcon Heavy rocket

 

[Grand Vol]

Of course if you farted and burped intensely enough at the same time you could turn yourself into a pinwheel. OK, maybe I should be banned from this thread.

Only if you used vectored thrust from both locations. Right duck face and a 90 degree left angle on the butt exhaust nozzle.

 

[Hunerwadel]

Only if you used vectored thrust from both locations. Right duck face and a 90 degree left angle on the butt exhaust nozzle.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Also look at the idea of solar sails. If the science behind that is real, light has to have mass, otherwise it wouldn't go anywhere. You dont get kinetic energy out of thermal energy(or whatever energy a photon wave is) without some sort of mechanical exchange. Solar sail tech doesnt have that, it's literally a sail.

To pull a Spoc whenever you have eliminated the impossible, whatever is left (light having mass), no matter how improbable, becomes at least plausible. We cant prove it and wont prove it until we get past light. Until then we have this impossibility we can observe but not explain. To huners point, it's not science, but it's also not science fiction

I firmly do not believe that the speed of light is a physical barrier akin to Mach. Won't know until we get there.

 

[82_VOL_83]

I dont buy the solar sail crap...at least not yet. For the reason you stated. If it were possible, we could propel vehicles with huge lasers on Earth. I think it is just a fictional concept because we cant think of anything better...like those supposed drives that could create propulsion without any fuel, in violation of the law of conservation of mass/energy. I am just a dumb carpenter with a GED, but i am pretty well read, enough to know that those laws are solid.

We need to figure out light and gravity. Until we do, we arent going any further than a planet or so away from terra firma. If there is any truth to the aliens visiting here stories from pilots, aliens have already figured out gravity. Their ships can supposedly sit still in the sky for 12 hours at a time, then take off vertically at many thousands of mph...with no visible signs of propulsion or infrared propulsion signatures. That screams anti gravity to me...and once gravity is defeated or harnessed, IMO, thats when talk about light speed and star travel starts to sound realistic...once propulsion is no longer a factor.

Magnetism also fascinates me, and we have very little understanding of it, either. Why and how it behaves the way that it does is mysterious, just like gravity. Could magnetism be used to propel craft? It certainly generates a lot of force

What is Solar Sailing?

Not so fast.......

And yes on the anti-grav or artificial grav. It is such a simple concept but is no where close to being understood.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Of course if you farted and burped intensely enough at the same time you could turn yourself into a pinwheel. OK, maybe I should be banned from this thread.

Burp wouldn't work unless you were drunk as hell. Need the burning gas expansion to produce the pressure in the nozzle chamber. It would be funny as hell to watch though. I guess you could exhale lighter fluid and light both ends at one time.........

 

[LouderVol]

I firmly do not believe that the speed of light is a physical barrier akin to Mach. Won't know until we get there.

I think it's a scientific barrier akin to Mach. Moving things at light speed will take adjustment, and if not done right it will create issues. I dont think our tech now if continuously accelerated to light speed would survive. May not shake itself apart like Mach but something happens.