Standard of Living already down.

#151
#151
utgibbs said:
They made out like bandits. You're argument of "10% isn't 100%" is not the point. It is an INFINITE amount more than they would have had without the taxpayer taking a lossd.
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Absolutely absurd. If it had gone into chapter 11 gm wouldn't cease to exist. Just like united didn't cease to exist. The brand, factories, and dealerships are still worth billions. The bondholders would have gotten 100% of the company. They would have been able to get actual concessions from the unions and gm would have emerged stronger than today without needing 30 bil from the american people. The bondholders would be FAR richer. Only the unions were bailed out by obama. Arguing 10% is some sort of handout is idiocy.
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#152
#152
utgibbs said:
All y'all are doing is quibbling about what the accountants call the instruments.

I said the corporate governance and the "big players" were taken care of in the deal. That's exactly what happened.

All I've heard is y'all debate what the device might be called (preferred, Class-B, restricted stock blah, blah, blah).

But the hammer is REALLY about to fall soon.
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This is dumber than hell.
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#153
#153
And you might ask why the bondholders didn't sue. Well obama threatened to vilify them in the media and threatened to send the irs against them. I.e. he strongarmed them like a mafia thug. So who really got screwed? How about the billions owned by 401ks and pension funds? They got totally screwed. Why? Just to bail out a bunch of overpaid autoworkers. One of the most disgusting acts I've seen a president do in my lifetime.
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#154
#154
droski said:
And you might ask why the bondholders didn't sue. Well obama threatened to vilify them in the media and threatened to send the irs against them. I.e. he strongarmed them like a mafia thug. So who really got screwed? How about the billions owned by 401ks and pension funds? They got totally screwed. Why? Just to bail out a bunch of overpaid autoworkers. One of the most disgusting acts I've seen a president do in my lifetime.
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Please. The big swinging cranks in the deal are the company staff. The institutions are just also rans and have no say.
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#155
#155
utgibbs said:
Union took MAJOR hits - a catalog of hits.

However, jobs were saved. I wish they were building railcars instead, but it is fair to say they benefited as well.

Certainly not at the expense of the real stakeholders though. They should have been prepared to take nothing.
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Ford's union took a hit. GM's union walked away virtually unscathed. The share holders got screwed. The new company was formed with new IPo'd shares and the old company is in a desk somewhere.

Also, you are throwing around terms that you don't quite understand obviously. Restricted stock became popular when Clinton passed the income tax bonus of a million onto business exs. Companies then decided to get around the issue while keeping their top level exs happy and thus Restricted stock became popular. The reason it is restricted also is to make sure that you don't hand an officer 5 million in stock and he dumps it in the market the day after and now has cash on hand and no stake in the company. The vesting part is to make sure that precautions take place.

Droski is going to eat you for lunch on this topic friend ... let it go. You are wrong.
 
#156
#156
droski said:
And you might ask why the bondholders didn't sue. Well obama threatened to vilify them in the media and threatened to send the irs against them. I.e. he strongarmed them like a mafia thug. So who really got screwed? How about the billions owned by 401ks and pension funds? They got totally screwed. Why? Just to bail out a bunch of overpaid autoworkers. One of the most disgusting acts I've seen a president do in my lifetime.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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What went down was absolutely criminal. It amazes me to this day that the bond holders just took it.
 
#157
#157
If what y'all are saying is true (it isn't) this will mark a historic turning point in world history. This is the Left rising triumphant and ready to assemble at the Finland Station. Unions have taken over what was the world's largest corporation, and like dominos, the rest will fall. The coterie of "City Boys" across the world shamed, justly vilified, are handing over their ill-gotten gains and are cowering in the corner hoping not to be swept away in the Revolution.

Poo the Moo and get a clue!

The bond holders orchestrated the deal for goodness sakes! (not directed at you exclusively Ihatebuckeyes)
 
#158
#158
Ihatethebuckeyes said:
Ford's union took a hit. GM's union walked away virtually unscathed. The share holders got screwed. The new company was formed with new IPo'd shares and the old company is in a desk somewhere.

Also, you are throwing around terms that you don't quite understand obviously. Restricted stock became popular when Clinton passed the income tax bonus of a million onto business exs. Companies then decided to get around the issue while keeping their top level exs happy and thus Restricted stock became popular. The reason it is restricted also is to make sure that you don't hand an officer 5 million in stock and he dumps it in the market the day after and now has cash on hand and no stake in the company. The vesting part is to make sure that precautions take place.

Droski is going to eat you for lunch on this topic friend ... let it go. You are wrong.
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I lost the battle on accountant vocabulary - I concede. Semantic battles on sportsboards don't really thrill me. "Shareholder" was too broad a term to use in the beginning; it confused folks. I was wrong here.

Regardless, I won the debate battle. The major stakeholders not only orchestrated the deal, they were paid at the taxpayer expense. Which was the opposite of what was claimed in the beginning.

By all means, include the unions (which made many sacrifices as well) as part of those stakeholders.

In conclusion though, I'm rather pleased by all this. Despite y'all's Far Right politics, there exists a consensus evident in this thread what is good for GM is not necessarily good for America. And this is very, very healthy and needs broad application.
 
#159
#159
oooh, you won!!!

gibbs actually won a thread debate on a volnation message board!!!

quick, call the Nobel committee!!!



lulz
 
#161
#161
MG1968 said:
oooh, you won!!!

gibbs actually won a thread debate on a volnation message board!!!

quick, call the Nobel committee!!!



lulz
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Still having a hard time getting used to the winner looking like a fool throughout the entire contest, but I guess that's how it is.
 
#162
#162
utgibbs said:
If what y'all are saying is true (it isn't) this will mark a historic turning point in world history. This is the Left rising triumphant and ready to assemble at the Finland Station. Unions have taken over what was the world's largest corporation, and like dominos, the rest will fall. The coterie of "City Boys" across the world shamed, justly vilified, are handing over their ill-gotten gains and are cowering in the corner hoping not to be swept away in the Revolution.

Poo the Moo and get a clue!

The bond holders orchestrated the deal for goodness sakes! (not directed at you exclusively Ihatebuckeyes)
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why would they orchestrate a deal where they get 1/10th of what they deserve? does this many any sense whatesoever?
 
#164
#164
droski said:
why would they orchestrate a deal where they get 1/10th of what they deserve? does this many any sense whatesoever?
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utgibbs is an absolute fool. There's really no valid reason to keep him around other than the entertainment value.
 
#165
#165
utgibbs said:
I lost the battle on accountant vocabulary - I concede. Semantic battles on sportsboards don't really thrill me. "Shareholder" was too broad a term to use in the beginning; it confused folks. I was wrong here.

Regardless, I won the debate battle. The major stakeholders not only orchestrated the deal, they were paid at the taxpayer expense. Which was the opposite of what was claimed in the beginning.

By all means, include the unions (which made many sacrifices as well) as part of those stakeholders.

In conclusion though, I'm rather pleased by all this. Despite y'all's Far Right politics, there exists a consensus evident in this thread what is good for GM is not necessarily good for America. And this is very, very healthy and needs broad application.
Click to expand...

This was not a "what's best for GM" situation. This was a "what's best for the unions" situation. The unions lost hardly nothing in this. When you take on common stiock there is always a risk. That is why it usually has the most gain. I don't feel as bad for the sole stock holders.

Bondholders got screwed though. The reason most bonds pay out less is because the risk is far less. You are going with a sure thing. I don't even believe the collateral bond holders got paid out in full. Over 20% of the debt was held by unsecured bond holders. Got 10 cents on the dollar average across the board.

The unions needed to be busted up and the company products needed to be sold firesale to other companies. If this would have been done, Ford might have bought Cadillac. Toyota might have bought Chevy. ETc. ETC. Most of the GM plants would have been shut down and moved to non union plants in SC or Ga but it would not have cost the tax payors a penny and the shareholders and bond holders would have gotten something.

GM is still the same GM. It still has massive overhead with the unions. It will fall again.
 
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