Standard of Living already down.

#101
#101
utgibbs said:
None of you seem to understand. The common shareholder was taken to the cleaners. Yes. The preferred shareholders / bondholders / lenders were taken care of. In fact, it was these folks who forced the Administration's hand.

The bailout was to take care of the preferred holders of the company. Any thought otherwise is just as cuckoo as volinbham's Adobe Paint.
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a) i'm fairly sure GM had no preferred stock, but if they did i assure you they got nothing.

b) the bondholders got 10% of the company instead of their rightful 100%. massive screwjob.

this is all public information.
 
#102
#102
VolsNSkinsFan said:
I am trying to figure out why this is a problem? That always happens when a company goes BK. Thats the risk you take when owning shares of a company. Yes stocks can go to $0, its horrible, I know but guess what, Its been happening for hundreds of years.

The US Treasury owns 60% of GM, The Canadian govt owns 12%. The UAW health care trust fund owns 18% and the rest, about 10% went to the bondholders. The bondholders got screwed. Who do you think owns those bonds? I would say its mostly the white collar workers of GM, the marjoirty of whom live Detroit
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Other stakeholders in the company were specifically taken care of by the bailout. That's the point. Joe Schmo who bought GM on Ameritrade was cleaned out - yes.

The real, governing interests in the company were taken care of. In its first installment the loss the taxpayer just took. If you think the taxpayer is going to sell our remaining stake in the company at $53 / share, I've got some land in East Tennessee near a coal ash repository I'd like to sell you....
 
#103
#103
droski said:
a) i'm fairly sure GM had no preferred stock, but if they did i assure you they got nothing.

b) the bondholders got 10% of the company instead of their rightful 100%. massive screwjob.

this is all public information.
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a) they did, and they did.

b) these were the guys we specifically just paid off selling at a loss.

And if you think we will be selling off the other shares at $53, I've got some land I would like to sell you.
 
#104
#104
BigPapaVol said:
This is utterly senseless. You'll be best served to stop talking. We already know you talk a lot from lefty idiot boards and know little, but this particular subject has been particularly atrocious. This one has been almost as absurd as your wage stagnation graphs and your utter lack of any clue how they got there.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Which lefty idiot boards?

I know a little about love, and baby, I just guess the rest... :hi:

As for wage stagnation and the neoliberal restoration of class power that's just called the real world outside the back door. Check it out, sometime.
 
#105
#105
utgibbs said:
Other stakeholders in the company were specifically taken care of by the bailout. That's the point. Joe Schmo who bought GM on Ameritrade was cleaned out - yes.

The real, governing interests in the company were taken care of. In its first installment the loss the taxpayer just took. If you think the taxpayer is going to sell our remaining stake in the company at $53 / share, I've got some land in East Tennessee near a coal ash repository I'd like to sell you....
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Who are these "Other Stakeholders"? What kind of stakes? Is there some sort of secret society of shareholders? Maybe you are confused with GMAC

Considering the new GM is trading at $36 right now, I would hope that they would sell if offered $53

Give it up, you simply dont know what you are talking about

this is from the USAToday

GM preferred stock: We prefer not to own it - USATODAY.com

Q: What is the status of preferred shares of the former General Motors?
A: If you owned common or preferred shares in the company formerly known as General Motors, don't be confused by the talk of a GM initial public offering of stock (IPO).

Common and preferred stocks in the old General Motors have been all but wiped out as part of the bailout, says Ken Winans of Winans International, author of Preferred Stocks: An Investment Renaissance.

I checked my online brokerage's quotation service, and I'm not even seeing a quote for GM's preferred shares. If you do see an entry on your brokerage statement, you should call your brokerage for more information. The residue of the old GM is now known as Motors Liquidation (MTLQQ), and shares aren't worth much. (about 10 cents)

If you still think you own GM Preferred shares, perhaps you own preferred shares of GM's former GMAC unit. Those preferred shares still trade.

Whatever the case, Winans recommends that investors avoid any preferreds connected with GM.
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#106
#106
utgibbs said:
a) they did, and they did.

b) these were the guys we specifically just paid off selling at a loss.

And if you think we will be selling off the other shares at $53, I've got some land I would like to sell you.
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a) link? or any supporting evidence?

b) what the hell are you talking about?
 
#107
#107
IPorange said:
To clarify again, my comments are strictly concerning individual human beings, not nations. Human beings are all equally worthy of opportunity, no matter where they were born.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Equal of opportunity - perhaps.

But they are not equal in the absolute sense. I don't claim Americans have superior genetics or brain power.

However, there can be differences and when mixed with culture/values the outcomes can be quite different regardless of resource advantage/disadvantage.
 
#108
#108
volinbham said:
Equal of opportunity - perhaps.

But they are not equal in the absolute sense. I don't claim Americans have superior genetics or brain power.

However, there can be differences and when mixed with culture/values the outcomes can be quite different regardless of resource advantage/disadvantage.
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and I think you're both right. American guilt over having developed a system that best takes advantage of human nature and provides better opportunity amazes me. I'm not claiming any individual superiority whatsoever, but I am claiming that we have developed an unbelievable economic system. Is our system perfect? No. Is it the best ever? Yes.

As to individuals, I firmly believe that the makeup of our forefathers and their independence bent is the backbone of the greatness of our country. They were basically self selected independents and fighters for their beliefs. They shaped the founding fathers, who were seriously an amazing confluence of great minds, philosophers, realists and doers.
 
#109
#109
droski said:
a) link? or any supporting evidence?

b) what the hell are you talking about?
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a) none

b) could legitimately be the response to 90% of his silliness, save his AGW tomes, which appear to have some basis in reading.
 
#110
#110
BigPapaVol said:
and I think you're both right. American guilt over having developed a system that best takes advantage of human nature and provides better opportunity amazes me. I'm not claiming any individual superiority whatsoever, but I am claiming that we have developed an unbelievable economic system. Is our system perfect? No. Is it the best ever? Yes.

As to individuals, I firmly believe that the makeup of our forefathers and their independence bent is the backbone of the greatness of our country. They were basically self selected independents and fighters for their beliefs. They shaped the founding fathers, who were seriously an amazing confluence of great minds, philosophers, realists and doers.
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Yep.

Our founding has more to do with motivation and mindset than genetics. From day 1 we've been made up of people that sought a better way and would sacrifice much for that. It is woven into the cultural DNA (although that is changing). We are much more individualistic than our European brothers/sisters. We value individual achievement and self reliance more.

People is people yes but you can't separate people from cultural context when you are looking at relative country performance.
 
#113
#113
volinbham said:
who were the secret bondholders that got paid?
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you mean the ones who, by contract and by law, should have gotten every available dime? Crazy to think they would have gotten paid at the expense of the freaking union destroyers.
 
#115
#115
droski said:
the funny part is he is arguing the preferred shareholders got paid in full despite the fact that the bondholders got 10% and legally are first in line as creditors.
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he wouldn't know a preferred share from a muni bond.
 
#117
#117
BigPapaVol said:
he wouldn't know a preferred share from a muni bond.
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he didn't even know the term preferred shareholders until i gave him that information. his reaction was "see it says 'preferred!'" Little does he know preferred shareholders is just marketing jargon to get old people to buy 40 year to 60 year bonds with no call protection and a crappy credit.
 
#118
#118
BigPapaVol said:
a) none

b) could legitimately be the response to 90% of his silliness, save his AGW tomes, which appear to have some basis in reading.
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Awww, shucks, BPV! :blush2:

Get ready, because the real wealth redistribution thread is coming up.
 
#119
#119
volinbham said:
10% is still getting paid man - (gorilla time)
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Stop - gorilla time!

Well done, vinb. :thumbsup:

Exactamundo, they got paid when they weren't going to get paid. The first transfusion came at the expense of the taxpayer on the money lost on the IPO.

Bada bing. Wealth redistribution. Get ready for the wealth redistribution thread in near future.
 
#120
#120
droski said:
the funny part is he is arguing the preferred shareholders got paid in full despite the fact that the bondholders got 10% and legally are first in line as creditors.
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Exactly. It's quite obvious that utgibbs doesn't have the first clue about how these things work.
 
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