State of the Football Program

[FLG8tor]

i agree milo i think meachum is a 1rst or second rounder gone after this year. ainge no chance of getting drafted, reminds me alot of casey clausen. :blink:

I would wait and see what Ainge develops into this year and next under David Cutcliffe. He's a known QB guru, and has sent some decent products to the NFL. Ainge can scramble well, he's tall, has a good arm, etc. The UF game is just one game. Hell, in the heat of emotion, I wanted to gut Leak like a pig after Alabama and LSU last year:furious3: , but he's a good QB, and we all need to look at the full season to really judge the success or failure of a passer. I really believe Ainge will keep getting better.

 

[VolBeef88]

People forget the insane (-ly bad) huge impact the combine has on a players draft status... Matt Jones anybody? Went from a feasible qb convert to first-rounder in 4.3 seconds. Meach will probably do the same. He's big, athletic, fast and has great hands.

But with Ainge? C'mon dude... Guy's not first-day material right now. In fact, if he doesn't ball this season, I doubt he'd even get drafted.

Milo the kid is on track to be the comeback player of the year. His game is getting better with each outing. He now makes much better decisions than ever. I was actually proud of him (not our O line) for throwing the ball away when he did against UF. If his progress continues he will be a first round draft choice.

 

[sjt18]

I think Harrell will be likely a first roud draft choice and possibly Sears, The verdict is still out on Meachem. In the 2000 draft we had 8 draftees in the first three rounds. I think the talent level has fallen.

Are you kidding? You have Mapu who was a star as a sophomore and is working to get back to that level. Several of the LB's have that potential. Several of the o-linemen have that potential. Meachem does.

Ainge's weight, strength, and durability might be an NFL question mark.

The truth is that these guys are talented but unknowns at this point.

The talent might have fallen off a little on offense. Players like to go where they see exciting and/or dominant offenses. The offense was neither under Sanders. However there is more than sufficient talent to get it done.

The best players on this team are young. Give them a chance to develop and I think we'll all be pleased.

 

[JAllen18MVP]

ainge no chance of getting drafted, reminds me alot of casey clausen. :blink:

How?

Seriously.

Ainge could cut half his arm off and still have a better arm than Clausen.

Clausen was one of my favorite UT players. He had guts, he had heart, and most of the time, he won us games. But as an NFL prospect, Clausen can't really touch Ainge.

Ainge has a better arm, he has more mobility, just overall more athletic. The biggest thing that he has that Clausen did not? David Cutcliffe.

I'm not ready to proclaim Ainge as a top 10 pick, but if he keeps improving at the rate he is, he'll be a first rounder.

I really don't see any similarities between the two, beside the fact they both come from the west coast.

 

[champyvol]

Is that a bad thing?

Or just a west coast bias?

west coast bias mostly. ainge is always short on his throws, just like casey. casey was the more accurate passer. ainge has more upside and a better arm he just doesnt read the defense as well as casey did. ainge has tons of work to do to play on sundays. ainge is not that mobile he showed that against a speedy florida defense saturday. he's no t-martin back there scaring teams with his legs. CUT is a hell of a QB caoch and as long as he stays there is always hope, but his job is huge.

 

[sjt18]

On top of that, I honestly feel the Vols are being out recruited by some of the other SEC programs.

I would disagree for several reasons.

First, a 5-6 season hurts your recruiting. That's an undeniable fact. However, that class became very small due to some dismissals and non-qualifiers. The long and short being that some of those guys will come in next year better prepared to play or UT will have more scholarships to offer this year.

More specifically, UF, LSU, and UGA.

You can look at the Scout and Rivals rankings for free. Just a simple average of the last three years has UF=7.5, UGA=5.7, and UT=12 even including last year's relatively low 23/24 ranking. They are the only school in the past year that has put together a class that Scout rated ahead of USC.

In college football, recruiting is half the battle.

I'd say it is more than that but there is negligible difference in a #7 and #10 class.

The talent is obviously there to compete. It could be better but it isn't bad at all.

I understand it's 'only' September, but as of right now, the Vols have 12 verbal commits for their '07 class. Only ONE of those verbals is above a 3 star.

If I remember right, Al Wilson was like a 2 star player. Quintin Hancock who has worked himself up into the WR mix as a true freshman was a 3 star player.

Jonathan Heffney was a 3 star player. Inky Johnson, Elix Wilson, and Ryan Karl were 2 star players. Antonio Reynolds was a 3 star player. In their classes, there were a whole bunch of 4 and 5 star guys who have never made any impact.

The long and the short of it is that UT wasn't overwhelmed by UF's talent. UF's d-line outplayed UT's o-line.

In fact, he's an OL guy and he's rated 4 stars out of a possible 5. I'm sorry, but to only have 8% of your current class at 4 stars or above at this stage in the game at a storied program like UT is just sad...

I hate to be offensive but that statement is idiotic. Their class however it turns out won't be determined by the first few players they sign.

FTR, according to Rivals, UT has 13 verbals including 2 four star players and a 5 star player. You also have several of those guys who might be moving up. Daryl Vereen out of NC is posting huge numbers as a senior after having broken his hand as a junior. The LB out of Winston-Salem could also move up.

Two of these signees are re-signs if I am not mistaken out of prep school. As I mentioned, UT's 06 class turned out very small which will give them more scholarships to offer.

All that really matters is how much of the talent shows on the field of course but if there is any consolation for UT fans out of Saturday it is that the Vol players were well matched against a very talented UF team.

 

[champyvol]

I would disagree for several reasons.

First, a 5-6 season hurts your recruiting. That's an undeniable fact. However, that class became very small due to some dismissals and non-qualifiers. The long and short being that some of those guys will come in next year better prepared to play or UT will have more scholarships to offer this year. You can look at the Scout and Rivals rankings for free. Just a simple average of the last three years has UF=7.5, UGA=5.7, and UT=12 even including last year's relatively low 23/24 ranking. They are the only school in the past year that has put together a class that Scout rated ahead of USC. I'd say it is more than that but there is negligible difference in a #7 and #10 class.

The talent is obviously there to compete. It could be better but it isn't bad at all. If I remember right, Al Wilson was like a 2 star player. Quintin Hancock who has worked himself up into the WR mix as a true freshman was a 3 star player.

Jonathan Heffney was a 3 star player. Inky Johnson, Elix Wilson, and Ryan Karl were 2 star players. Antonio Reynolds was a 3 star player. In their classes, there were a whole bunch of 4 and 5 star guys who have never made any impact.

The long and the short of it is that UT wasn't overwhelmed by UF's talent. UF's d-line outplayed UT's o-line.

I hate to be offensive but that statement is idiotic. Their class however it turns out won't be determined by the first few players they sign.

FTR, according to Rivals, UT has 13 verbals including 2 four star players and a 5 star player. You also have several of those guys who might be moving up. Daryl Vereen out of NC is posting huge numbers as a senior after having broken his hand as a junior. The LB out of Winston-Salem could also move up.

Two of these signees are re-signs if I am not mistaken out of prep school. As I mentioned, UT's 06 class turned out very small which will give them more scholarships to offer.

All that really matters is how much of the talent shows on the field of course but if there is any consolation for UT fans out of Saturday it is that the Vol players was well matched against a very talented UF team.

most of the players you metion are role players not stars. al wilson was a 3 or 4 star running back that played both ways.

 

[sjt18]

I only mentioned a few players and the point wasn't about being a "star" player. It is about being very good, productive starters. Karl, Hefney, Reynolds, and Johnson are/were not role players. They are starters on one of the nation's best football programs. They earned it and they've played like they deserve it.

Beyond that, you can look at those stars and miss a star. Prime example- Patrick Willis. Probably the best LB in the SEC who was missed by UT no doubt in part because he was only a 2 star player.

 

[WA_Vol]

When Cutcliffe has 2 years or more to work with the offense should see even better results. The improvements in Ainge already have been amazing.

 

[Summitgator]

sjt,

I'm not going to address all of your points...don't have time for that here at work. In my initial post I got my star ratings off scout, not rivals. I understand they sometimes vary. My point was is that if you look at teams that seem to consistently finish in the top 10 (USC, Texas, and even LSU for that matter), those are the same teams that consistently have consensus top 10 recruiting classes. There is an undeniable correlation there. My thought is that UT is losing ground behind UF, LSU, and UGA.

I understand there are players, such as Al Wilson, who were not highly rated in high school and end up being major impact players and go on to the NFL. There are many highly touted 5 star players who end up being busts in college. That's just the nature of the sport. There are hundreds of players that have fallen into each of those categories. However, teams that can put together say, 3-4 consecutive top 10 classes as a whole increase their chances of finishing in the top 10 and winning NCs enormously.

 

[champyvol]

I only mentioned a few players and the point wasn't about being a "star" player. It is about being very good, productive starters. Karl, Hefney, Reynolds, and Johnson are/were not role players. They are starters on one of the nation's best football programs. They earned it and they've played like they deserve it.

Beyond that, you can look at those stars and miss a star. Prime example- Patrick Willis. Probably the best LB in the SEC who was missed by UT no doubt in part because he was only a 2 star player.

i can see your point. i was just saying they are not nfl caliber talent like fulmer used to be able to pull in.

 

[champyvol]

sjt,

I'm not going to address all of your points...don't have time for that here at work. In my initial post I got my star ratings off scout, not rivals. I understand they sometimes vary. My point was is that if you look at teams that seem to consistently finish in the top 10 (USC, Texas, and even LSU for that matter), those are the same teams that consistently have consensus top 10 recruiting classes. There is an undeniable correlation there. My thought is that UT is losing ground behind UF, LSU, and UGA.

I understand there are players, such as Al Wilson, who were not highly rated in high school and end up being major impact players and go on to the NFL. There are many highly touted 5 star players who end up being busts in college. That's just the nature of the sport. There are hundreds of players that have fallen into each of those categories. However, teams that can put together say, 3-4 consecutive top 10 classes as a whole increase their chances of finishing in the top 10 and winning NCs enormously.

i agree. ut has lost alot of ground to those three teams and have had trouble keeping the great talent from tennessee home.

 

[SWS22]

i can see your point. i was just saying they are not nfl caliber talent like fulmer used to be able to pull in.

Plus Coach Fulmer is not putting out as many players in the N.F.L. as he use to. Jason Allen last was the first 1st round pick since 2002. I think either two or three years ago we only had 5 players drafted in the entire draft. Compare this number to the big time programs and see how many more players their putting out in the N.F.L. draft. Especially in the 1st round.

 

[sjt18]

Since you prefer Scout, here are the respective rankings since 2002:

UF- 20, 4, 8, 11, 2 Avg- 9
UT- 5, 7, 9, 1, 24 Avg- 9.2
UGA- 9, 11, 6, 4, 4 Avg- 6.8
LSU- 15, 2, 2, 19, 7 Avg- 9

According to this UGA should've won several SEC titles and been thumping on UF. Instead, they're 1 of the last 4.

Drop each team's bad year- UT avg: 5.4, UF avg: 6.2

The bottom line is that these rankings have alot of subjectivity in them. They tell the relative strength of a class... but there isn't alot of difference between two teams that average in the top ten.

UT had one bad recruiting year following a bad season. If it is repeated this year then your point becomes a little more tenable.

 

[OWB]

NFL prospects and winning go hand in hand...

 

[sjt18]

The evidence seems to be that the talent has been there but hasn't been developed. I think that is changing under Cutcliffe. Chavis seems to have been pretty consistent in putting good players into the NFL.

 

[SWS22]

Since you prefer Scout, here are the respective rankings since 2002:

UF- 20, 4, 8, 11, 2 Avg- 9
UT- 5, 7, 9, 1, 24 Avg- 9.2
UGA- 9, 11, 6, 4, 4 Avg- 6.8
LSU- 15, 2, 2, 19, 7 Avg- 9

According to this UGA should've won several SEC titles and been thumping on UF. Instead, they're 1 of the last 4.

Drop each team's bad year- UT avg: 5.4, UF avg: 6.2

The bottom line is that these rankings have alot of subjectivity in them. They tell the relative strength of a class... but there isn't alot of difference between two teams that average in the top ten.

UT had one bad recruiting year following a bad season. If it is repeated this year then your point becomes a little more tenable.

Georgia has won two S.E.C. titles in the last four years. Also during that time they have won 44 games. Sounds like Scout.Com is doing a good job.

 

[sjt18]

ut has lost alot of ground to those three teams

Disagree. The numbers appear to say different.

and have had trouble keeping the great talent from tennessee home.

Now that does seem to be true and is a mystery. Further, it is a mystery to me why Tennessee doesn't produce more blue chip prospects.

 

[champyvol]

Since you prefer Scout, here are the respective rankings since 2002:

UF- 20, 4, 8, 11, 2 Avg- 9
UT- 5, 7, 9, 1, 24 Avg- 9.2
UGA- 9, 11, 6, 4, 4 Avg- 6.8
LSU- 15, 2, 2, 19, 7 Avg- 9

According to this UGA should've won several SEC titles and been thumping on UF. Instead, they're 1 of the last 4.

Drop each team's bad year- UT avg: 5.4, UF avg: 6.2

The bottom line is that these rankings have alot of subjectivity in them. They tell the relative strength of a class... but there isn't alot of difference between two teams that average in the top ten.

UT had one bad recruiting year following a bad season. If it is repeated this year then your point becomes a little more tenable.

tell your theory to ohio st, texas and USC. they are cleaning up and in the BCS every year. florida has a new coach you have to give him time to set his players. on most cases the better you recruit the better your team is. there are exceptions like last year with UT but you'll have that. take a look at those teams i mentioned and the three sec teams in front of us and tell me in the last 4 years how many of there players went on the first day of the draft. i'll guarantee any of those teams are smoking us probably 10 times over. excellent coaching and recruiting makes a program. right now, for the last several years the first has been our problem, or downfall whichever way you want to look at it. now the second may come into play.

 

[sjt18]

Georgia has won two S.E.C. titles in the last four years. Also during that time they have won 44 games. Sounds like Scout.Com is doing a good job.

Did you miss the point or what?

They have lost to UF 3 of the last 4 meetings while supposedly having more talent.

I personally wish the Dawgs would whack UF hard... but the point is that these rankings say little more than all of these teams have great talent.

 

[sjt18]

tell your theory to ohio st, texas and USC.

You apparently don't see what my theory is...

It is this: UT has talent on the same level as UF, Aub, LSU, and UGA. They maybe haven't coached it up well over the past few years especially on offense. However, they do have it and aren't behind nor yet falling behind in recruiting. They had one "bad" year that most teams in D-1 would love to have as a good year.

If they don't come back with a top 10 class this year then maybe we should be more concerned.

 

[SWS22]

Georgia has won two S.E.C. titles in the last four years. Also during that time they have won 44 games. Sounds like Scout.Com is doing a good job.

Recently, Rivals.com followed up with recruiting ranking on how many players made it to the school they signed with. Do to all the problems U.T. had, " Grades, D.U.I's and so on with the players they signed . U.T.'s ranking went from 23rd to 31st. Only 14 of the 22 players U.T. signed our on campus know. The other big schools in the S.E.C. did alot better in Rivals.Com final ranking compared to U.T.'s. Not good for the future if your a Vols fan.

 

[SWS22]

Disagree. The numbers appear to say different. Now that does seem to be true and is a mystery. Further, it is a mystery to me why Tennessee doesn't produce more blue chip prospects.

Tennessee is not big state population wise. The city of Atlanta has almost as many people as the entire state of Tennessee.

 

[sjt18]

take a look at those teams i mentioned and the three sec teams in front of us and tell me in the last 4 years how many of there players went on the first day of the draft. i'll guarantee any of those teams are smoking us probably 10 times over.

As convincing as your guarantee is... I'd like to see the evidence that any of them have 10 times more NFL draft picks over the last 4 years than UT. It was your claim. You should back it up.

excellent coaching and recruiting makes a program.

I agree. What I don't agree with is that UT is now poorly coached or that they haven't done a good job of recruiting. You said Meyer should be allowed a few years to get his system right. I would submit that the mess Cut inherited from Sanders was about as bad if not worse.

right now, for the last several years the first has been our problem, or downfall whichever way you want to look at it.

I actually agree with this too. Sanders had no discipline on his offense. He was creative and probably a great game planner and teacher. But he didn't have a clue as to how to get players to execute. Cut does. Give him some time before saying that losing by one point to a top 10 UF team means the program is falling into utter disarray.

Do you really think he has been as demanding of Ainge and the receivers so that poor o-line play can sink the offense?

I'll break it down even further than that. I love the Frogg story... but that guy got thoroughly whipped on virtually every play. If you are going to lay that loss at the feet of one guy. He, unfortunately, is the guy. Had he won even a small percentage of the time, UT at least could have run off the left side behind Sears. UF's plan was simple and it worked. Cover Frogg and push him into the backfield on every play. He couldn't even set a post for an effective double team.

now the second may come into play.

Let's maybe see before we start talking about needing to replace Fulmer... who's been one of the best recruiters in football for years.

 

[sjt18]

Recently, Rivals.com followed up with recruiting ranking on how many players made it to the school they signed with. Do to all the problems U.T. had, " Grades, D.U.I's and so on with the players they signed . U.T.'s ranking went from 23rd to 31st. Only 14 of the 22 players U.T. signed our on campus know. The other big schools in the S.E.C. did alot better in Rivals.Com final ranking compared to U.T.'s. Not good for the future if your a Vols fan.

That looks about right. Do you know what the average "stars" were for the players that were left?

The rankings are actually based on points. You get more points the bigger the class is.

Since those guys are gone but their scholarships are not... that actually bodes very well for the future. UT is pursuing and very much in contention for several of the best JC players in the country. These open scholarships might help them get players that are more proven without selling out the future.