Tampa Muslim bombing plot thwarted

#51
#51
The point is, you can find within any given religion (and most political groups) a number of extremists who are willing to kill. I am sure that within CAIR there are terrorist sympathizers, just as I am sure that within the Baptist church system there are people willing to kill over their belief system, too.

Is there an organized group within Islam that is more dangerous, numbers and willlingness-wise at the moment?

Sure, but is that CAUSED by the religion or someone's political agenda to take advantage of the religion as a justification to others.

I thought this event showed that you cannot, and should not, assume that Muslims are more prone to violence or terrorism simply because they are Muslim. Its much more complicated than that.

So Tibetan Monks, who have undergone severe socio-economic and political persecution from China, are strapping suicide vest to themselves at the same rate as Muslims? You really don't think the difference in theology plays a bigger part than you care to admit?

And for the record, I'm not saying all Muslims are suicidal maniacs, or extremist. But a bit of honesty is needed here...followed to the letter of the belief, a muslim will be more prone to violence than a christian, a christian more than a buhddist, a buhddist more than a jainist, etc.

The 911 hijackers were not just men of faith, they were men of perfect faith. They fully believed in the paradise that awaited them and in the theological foundation of what they were doing. Moderates of all creeds just parse out what they want and discard the really crazy stuff. That doesn't mean that the inherent beliefs are not dangerous. And I'm sorry, some are more dangerous than others. It is just the way it is.
 
#52
#52
At various points in history, one religion or another, one political system or another, one ideology or another, gets co-opted by extremists and turns to violence as a means to an end. And when I say "points in history" i am generally talking about time measured in decades and sometimes even centuries.

We happen to live in a time when the abuse of Christianity such that it leads to violence is very low, whereas abuse of Islam leading to violence is high. It is that much easier for radical Islamists to promote violence in the current environment because the economics of their countries is often poor and stratified and education and freedom is low.

But times change. And have changed. If we were having this discussion 500 years ago we might be referring to radical Christians.

Perspective.

Bits of truth here, but mostly BS IMO.
 
#53
#53
At various points in history, one religion or another, one political system or another, one ideology or another, gets co-opted by extremists and turns to violence as a means to an end. And when I say "points in history" i am generally talking about time measured in decades and sometimes even centuries.

We happen to live in a time when the abuse of Christianity such that it leads to violence is very low, whereas abuse of Islam leading to violence is high. It is that much easier for radical Islamists to promote violence in the current environment because the economics of their countries is often poor and stratified and education and freedom is low.

But times change. And have changed. If we were having this discussion 500 years ago we might be referring to radical Christians.

Perspective.

But the fact is we are having this conversation in the year 2012 not 500 years ago. If Christians start killing countless numbers of innocent people I will be the first Christian to come forward and condemn them and would no longer call myself a Christian.

Are there a few nutjob Christians out there that kill? Sure. But there are not countless numbers of them killing, willing to kill or accept these acts of terror? No.

You all are so willing to point out acts committed by Christians hundreds of years ago yet so determined to defend current acts by Muslims. It's really pathetic.
 
#55
#55
Terror Plot In Tampa; CAIR Defends Suspect

Despite Osmakac’s commitment to carry out multiple deadly attacks, CAIR officials went on the offensive against the FBI for capturing another “innocent” Muslim. Trying to create tension between Muslim Americans and law enforcement is part of CAIR’s regular response to government counterterrorism investigations.

Executive Director of CAIR San Francisco Zahra Billoo was quick to paint the arrest as a scam, stating that she was “wondering how much of the thwarted terror plot in Florida was seeded by the FBI, [a]ppreciating that even the MSM mentioned the informants.” Dawud Walid, Executive Director of CAIR-Michigan, released a tweetsaying, “it is not the job of civil rights groups to be commending the FBI on their use of informants, given the FBI’s history.”

The Director of CAIR’s Florida chapter, Hassan Shibley, gave a more lukewarm and confusing response to news of the arrest. Although he stated that Osmakac “was no friend or supporter of the Muslim community” and that the Muslim community had played a “vital role” in his arrest, he also expressed “concern about a perception of entrapment.”

“The weapons and explosives were provided by the government. Was he just a troubled individual, or did he pose a real threat?” said Shibly to the press this morning. As the day progressed, he was quoted casting additional mistrust of the government’s intentions. “I think the fear at the point is that he was just mentally disturbed…I think that community members hoped that by reporting him, he could get the proper assistance,” Shibly explained to MyFoxTampaBay.

The details of the case make plain the intentions of the plotter.
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As the attack drew closer, the suspect laid out motives common to most Islamist terrorists. He intended the plots to damage America’s sense of security as a nation, pointing out how he wanted the bombing to “terrify them,” and prove that no amount of homeland security funding could provide protection. He also intended to seize hostages to trade for Islamist terrorist already in American jails, and he planned to kill any hostages after his demands were met.

WhosFundingCAIR.jpg


Sultan Knish a blog by Daniel Greenfield

The founders were English citizens and well aware of the way in which religion could stoke political violence. In the late 18th century, Cromwell was not ancient history, neither were the Covenanters or the Gunpowder Plot. While they did not anticipate like the rise of an Islamic insurgency in America, they understood quite well that religion and violence could and would intersect.
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Until now the only real acid test for this approach involved the Mormon Church, an ugly history on both sides that has mostly been buried under the weight of time. More recently Scientology flared up as a cult turned church that demanded its own autonomy and did its best to make war on the government and its critics.

And then there is Islam. The first problem with using the First Amendment in defense of Islam-- is that its goal is to violate the First Amendment. Islam's widely stated goal is to become a State Religion, around the world and in America as well.

Sharia has been making steady advances in Africa and parts of Asia. Majorities of Muslims in the UK have said that they want Sharia law, and leading British figures such as the Archbishop of Canterbury have supported the introduction of Islamic law into the British legal system. Domestic advocates for Sharia, such as Noah Feldman, are pushing for the normalization of Sharia law in the United States as well.

This would in effect turn Islam into an Established Religion in the United States, itself a violation of the First Amendment.

Furthermore Islam abridges the remaining portions of the First Amendment, which protect Freedom of Speech and the Press. Islam rejects both of these. To protect Islamic rights therefore means depriving non-Muslims of freedom of religion--- and both Muslims and non-Muslims of freedom of speech and the press.

These are not hypothetical scenarios, the Mohammed cartoon controversy has demonstrated exactly how this will work. So did the persecution of Salman Rushdie. To accept Islam is to reject freedom of speech and religion... in the same way that accepting Communism meant rejecting freedom of speech and religion. Islam and the Constitution of the United States are incompatible in the same way that Communism and the Constitution are incompatible.
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In 1785, James Madison, Father of the Constitution, wrote, "We hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth that religion or the duty which we owe our Creator and the manner of discharging it can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence."

Yet Islamic history and recent events in Eurabia demonstrate that Islam does indeed spread by force and violence. Upholding the right of Islam to force its statues and views on Americans, violates Madison's fundamental and undeniable truth.
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There is a key phrase in this statement, which is that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions. This statement was used as a legal principle by the Supreme Court in 1878 in the case of Reynolds vs the United States. Reynolds had been charged with bigamy and claimed that his faith required him to engage in polygamy.

The Court found that while Reynolds had the right to believe that polygamy was his duty, he did not have the right to practice it-- thus upholding Jefferson's distinction between action and belief.
----------------------------

We can begin by pointing out that any number of Islamic practices which violate American law or promote an unhealthy social consequence can be banned, for much the same reason that polygamy was. In Reynolds vs the United States, the Court upheld the right of the Utah legislature to brand the spread of polygamy as a threat to innocent women and children, that had to be arrested through strong measures. The spread of Islam's practices can be seen in the same way.
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Thus while we cannot charge someone with believing in Islam, we can stamp out many Islamic practices that are dangerous or abusive. The First Amendment does not protect religious practices that are illegal or made illegal, it protects only the beliefs themselves.

And we can go much further at an organizational level, based on the Sedition Act of 1918 and the 1954 Communist Control Act , which give us some guidelines for cracking down on Islam.
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Not only can this same argument also apply to Islamic organizations such as CAIR, but Islam can be distinguished from other religions on similar grounds. The following phrase from the original document represents the key point here;
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And that is the core of the problem. While we cannot criminalize individual beliefs alone, we can criminalize organizations dedicated to overthrowing the United States and replacing it with a totalitarian system. An organization is not merely "belief", it also represents an attempt to put those beliefs into practice.

The Internal Security Act of 1950, along with the 1954 Communist Control Act provides extensive legal grounds for criminalizing organizations dedicated to the overthrow of the United States, as well as membership in such organizations-- and even provides for the removal of citizenship from members of such organizations.

While succeeding courts have thrown out many portions of these laws, had the United States truly gotten serious about the War on Terror, it could have passed a real Patriot Act that would have clamped down on Islamist organizations in a similar way.
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Since Islam represents a totalitarian dictatorship, any organization or individual seeking to establish Islamic Law or Sharia within the United States, can be held liable and charged over its violation. This would apply to both Muslims and non-Muslims.

And the Koran or Quran itself represents a volume whose contents implicitly call for the violent overthrow of the United States.
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Thus we can ban Islam from the public sphere, ban Muslim organizations as criminal organizations, criminalize Muslim practices and even denaturalize and deport Muslims who are United States citizens. The legal infrastructure is there. Despite the fact that the United States is far more protective of political and religious rights, within a decade every single Muslim organization, from the national to the mosque level, can be shut down... and the majority of professing Muslims can be deported from the United States regardless of whether they are citizens or not.

We can do it. Whether we could or will do it is another matter.
 
#56
#56
A lot of gems in this thread since yesterday.

This is a pretty insightful article on Bush and, implicitly, on the divisions within the GOP:

It had some interesting points. However, the article lost credibility when it referred to GWB as an "extremist".

At various points in history, one religion or another, one political system or another, one ideology or another, gets co-opted by extremists and turns to violence as a means to an end. And when I say "points in history" i am generally talking about time measured in decades and sometimes even centuries.

We happen to live in a time when the abuse of Christianity such that it leads to violence is very low, whereas abuse of Islam leading to violence is high. It is that much easier for radical Islamists to promote violence in the current environment because the economics of their countries is often poor and stratified and education and freedom is low.

But times change. And have changed. If we were having this discussion 500 years ago we might be referring to radical Christians.

Perspective.

You made some good points, but the gist of your post was amiss. I think you hit on the socioeconomic problems which make that region fairly vulnerable. However, you tried to equate extremists with a religion (Islam) in and of itself. The extremists are an arm of the various theocracies across the region. Not Islam in and of itself. Extremists are motivated as much politically as they are religiously.

So Tibetan Monks, who have undergone severe socio-economic and political persecution from China, are strapping suicide vest to themselves at the same rate as Muslims? You really don't think the difference in theology plays a bigger part than you care to admit?

And for the record, I'm not saying all Muslims are suicidal maniacs, or extremist. But a bit of honesty is needed here...followed to the letter of the belief, a muslim will be more prone to violence than a christian, a christian more than a buhddist, a buhddist more than a jainist, etc.

The 911 hijackers were not just men of faith, they were men of perfect faith. They fully believed in the paradise that awaited them and in the theological foundation of what they were doing. Moderates of all creeds just parse out what they want and discard the really crazy stuff. That doesn't mean that the inherent beliefs are not dangerous. And I'm sorry, some are more dangerous than others. It is just the way it is.

You make a good point about the Tibetan Monks. It refutes LG's position which implies the extremists are a reflection of a certain religion in certain socioeconomic position.

However, one religion is not more dangerous than another religion. All organized religions are dangerous. Whenever another person, organization, or entity has sovereignty over an individual's spirituality and access to an afterlife of paradise; there will be big problems. These individuals of power and privilege within the religious hierarchy will always act in their own best interest and not in the interest of their constituents. The Arab world is full of theocracies. Religious figures are very much political figures and vise versa. They use the call to jihad to fulfill their own geopolitical aspirations unbeknownst to those whom they have convinced are fulfilling their quest for "perfect faith".

The theocracy and political aspects of Islam in the Arab world make it a whole different animal.

Are there a few nutjob Christians out there that kill? Sure. But there are not countless numbers of them killing, willing to kill or accept these acts of terror? No.

Given the right circumstances, I believe there would be. It is astonishing that you believe Christianity nowadays is special. Somehow different. That Christianity in the present day is somehow immune to the potential consequences of organized religion.

You all are so willing to point out acts committed by Christians hundreds of years ago yet so determined to defend current acts by Muslims. It's really pathetic.

I have yet to see anyone on this board defend the various acts of jihad. I am sorry that you are unable to see that you are apart of an organized religion and that all organized religions of all faiths have (in the past) and presently capable of horrible atrocities.
 
#57
#57
A lot of gems in this thread since yesterday.

It had some interesting points. However, the article lost credibility when it referred to GWB as an "extremist".

I consider him to be an extremist. He thought his agenda was so important that he bankrupted an already financially unstable country in order to wage 2 wars in the Middle East, and to infringe on our freedom at home. If that isn't extreme, then I don't know what is.
 
#58
#58
I consider him to be an extremist. He thought his agenda was so important that he bankrupted an already financially unstable country in order to wage 2 wars in the Middle East, and to infringe on our freedom at home. If that isn't extreme, then I don't know what is.

The article implied religious extremist. I have yet to hear a sound argument for the validity of such a statement.
 
#59
#59
The article implied religious extremist. I have yet to hear a sound argument for the validity of such a statement.

I just took at as extremism towards Islam. I'm not sure that he's saying all of it is based on his own religious extremism. I do think the author is implying religious differences played a role, and I agree.
 
#60
#60
I just took at as extremism towards Islam. I'm not sure that he's saying all of it is based on his own religious extremism. I do think the author is implying religious differences played a role, and I agree.

I wouldn't say he was an extremest towards Islam.

Although he was obviously a devout Christian, I think people read too much into it personally. If anything, he had bigger personal and business related reasons for Iraq than anything of a religious nature.
 
#61
#61
But the fact is we are having this conversation in the year 2012 not 500 years ago. If Christians start killing countless numbers of innocent people I will be the first Christian to come forward and condemn them and would no longer call myself a Christian.

Are there a few nutjob Christians out there that kill? Sure. But there are not countless numbers of them killing, willing to kill or accept these acts of terror? No.

You all are so willing to point out acts committed by Christians hundreds of years ago yet so determined to defend current acts by Muslims. It's really pathetic.

One would argue that the nutjobs in both religions are "countless" (and there literally is no way to count them). Christians were willing to go to war 500 years ago because they didn't enjoy the lives we enjoy today. America is the 1%. Life is relatively easy and good here. You put Christians in a craphole, and maybe they're willing to die for their differences, too.

Just like with Christians, the vast majority of Muslims are not willing to commit suicidal acts. Nobody is defending their acts, we are trying to put them in perspective so that we can change our strategy and actually avoid being a target in the future.
 
#62
#62
One would argue that the nutjobs in both religions are "countless" (and there literally is no way to count them). Christians were willing to go to war 500 years ago because they didn't enjoy the lives we enjoy today. America is the 1%. Life is relatively easy and good here. You put Christians in a craphole, and maybe they're willing to die for their differences, too.

Just like with Christians, the vast majority of Muslims are not willing to commit suicidal acts. Nobody is defending their acts, we are trying to put them in perspective so that we can change our strategy and actually avoid being a target in the future.

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know. And to assume they would is simply absurd.

A good amount of them are willing to kill, are ok with these acts or a best are unwilling to condemn. These guys know one thing and that's force. To think we can just stick out heads in the sand and think they will just leave us alone if we are nice to them is a little ridiculous.
 
#63
#63
Maybe, maybe not. We don't know. And to assume they would is simply absurd.

A good amount of them are willing to kill, are ok with these acts or a best are unwilling to condemn. These guys know one thing and that's force. To think we can just stick out heads in the sand and think they will just leave us alone if we are nice to them is a little ridiculous.

Why? They did it before, why would it be absurd to think they would do it again?

You keep saying other members of Islam "accept" the suicide bombers' actions, but what does that mean in the scheme of things? You want to take action on them because they condone your enemy? You want to invade their countries because they aren't mad at the small minority perpetrating terror? What is the the next step for the US if indeed this is fact that "many" and "countless" Muslims "accept" the terrorist acts of the radicals?
 
#64
#64
Why? They did it before, why would it be absurd to think they would do it again?

You keep saying other members of Islam "accept" the suicide bombers' actions, but what does that mean in the scheme of things? You want to take action on them because they condone your enemy? You want to invade their countries because they aren't mad at the small minority perpetrating terror? What is the the next step for the US if indeed this is fact that "many" and "countless" Muslims "accept" the terrorist acts of the radicals?

I never said to invade their country because they accept it. Those of the "religion" who are not ok with these acts should come out every single time someone straps a bomb to themselves and condemn it, they choose to stay silent. The fact is and this is what you all don't see, these terrorists are good Muslims, they are doing what they are supposed to. The radicals are the ones that do not commit or support acts of terror.
 
#65
#65
I never said to invade their country because they accept it. Those of the "religion" who are not ok with these acts should come out every single time someone straps a bomb to themselves and condemn it, they choose to stay silent. The fact is and this is what you all don't see, these terrorists are good Muslims, they are doing what they are supposed to. The radicals are the ones that do not commit or support acts of terror.

Do all, or even the vast majority, Christians come out and hold press conferences, or publish press releases, to condemn each and every act of Christian terrorism? If so, I have yet to be inundated with such information and retorts.

On top of that, most media in Arab nations is state-controlled. Many of these states, not the populations, do tacitly endose violence against Western interests in an effort to increase their power. Once again, this is a socio-economic problem and those in power will use religion to exploit the poor, ignorant, ad desperate.

Have you ever stepped foot in an Arab country? A mosque? Had any conversations with Muslim clerics?
 
#66
#66
I never said to invade their country because they accept it. Those of the "religion" who are not ok with these acts should come out every single time someone straps a bomb to themselves and condemn it, they choose to stay silent. The fact is and this is what you all don't see, these terrorists are good Muslims, they are doing what they are supposed to. The radicals are the ones that do not commit or support acts of terror.

Wow, just wow.

But what is your point? OK, so they should speak out against terrorism...so what if they don't?
 
#67
#67
VFJustin, if all but the radical Muslims are terrorists, then do you support killing and/or indefinitely detaining all Muslims?
 
#68
#68
I never said to invade their country because they accept it. Those of the "religion" who are not ok with these acts should come out every single time someone straps a bomb to themselves and condemn it, they choose to stay silent. The fact is and this is what you all don't see, these terrorists are good Muslims, they are doing what they are supposed to. The radicals are the ones that do not commit or support acts of terror.

Wow. Just wow.

But this is what I was originally talking about. -- the absurdly ignorant notion that "proper" Muslims are terrorists because their religion requires it of them.
 
#69
#69
Wow. Just wow.

But this is what I was originally talking about. -- the absurdly ignorant notion that "proper" Muslims are terrorists because their religion requires it of them.

Absurd? Ignorant? Hardly. Muslims are terrorists. Jews are greedy bankers and jewelers who will never assimilate and are always attemptng to undermine the state. Hindus are just hippies who hand out fantastic books around Christmas. Buddhists never get angry. And, Christians represent salvation for all the savages.
 
#70
#70
Absurd? Ignorant? Hardly. Muslims are terrorists. Jews are greedy bankers and jewelers who will never assimilate and are always attemptng to undermine the state. Hindus are just hippies who hand out fantastic books around Christmas. Buddhists never get angry. And, Christians represent salvation for all the savages.

:eek:lol:
 
#72
#72
Wow. Just wow.

But this is what I was originally talking about. -- the absurdly ignorant notion that "proper" Muslims are terrorists because their religion requires it of them.

Good to see you an nb on the same page.

I am glad to see the Obama and Paul supporters on the same side on this issue.
 
#73
#73
Good to see you an nb on the same page.

I am glad to see the Obama and Paul supporters on the same side on this issue.

Actually we're not. If we were on the same side then we'd be out of Afghanistan. If you're saying with regard to Muslims that Paul supporters and Obama supporters are not bigots, then I'll take it.
 
#74
#74
Do all, or even the vast majority, Christians come out and hold press conferences, or publish press releases, to condemn each and every act of Christian terrorism? If so, I have yet to be inundated with such information and retorts.

On top of that, most media in Arab nations is state-controlled. Many of these states, not the populations, do tacitly endose violence against Western interests in an effort to increase their power. Once again, this is a socio-economic problem and those in power will use religion to exploit the poor, ignorant, ad desperate.

Have you ever stepped foot in an Arab country? A mosque? Had any conversations with Muslim clerics?

Bump.
 

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