Teacher Union Success Stories

#26
#26
I think I could support that. But would it be like what's happened in universities with federal loans and grants? they take advantage of it by increasing the costs and soaking more money out of the system?

Not likely. There would be schools to meet a variety of demands. Vouchers would be offered based on income....so say you live in an area that spent $8K per student in public schools. Based on the income of the parents, the child would be awarded a voucher from $3-6K to take to the school of their choice. That means there would be a slew of new schools charging starting at the lower end of that ($3-4K) ranging all the way up to probably $20K (for the super rich, but those schools already exist).

In almost every case I'd say a school that competes for $4K/student is going to be better than a school that doesn't compete for $8K per student. Plus we save a buttload of money.
 
#27
#27
Not likely. There would be schools to meet a variety of demands. Vouchers would be offered based on income....so say you live in an area that spent $8K per student in public schools. Based on the income of the parents, the child would be awarded a voucher from $3-6K to take to the school of their choice. That means there would be a slew of new schools charging starting at the lower end of that ($3-4K) ranging all the way up to probably $20K (for the super rich, but those schools already exist).

In almost every case I'd say a school that competes for $4K/student is going to be better than a school that doesn't compete for $8K per student. Plus we save a buttload of money.



Does it not bother you that you would be using public tax money that would go to a private institution with an agenda, often religious?

I understand why people are frustrated with mediocrity, real or exaggerated, in different chunks of the public school system.

Just not sure that this is the way to fix that.
 
#28
#28
So our city school district just announced they have enough money left in the budget to get us to about the last week in April, first week of May. I guaran-dang-tee you the teachers won't lose a cent in salary, pension or other benefits and won't accept longer school days or any other schedule changes to help get us to the end of the school year.
 
#29
#29
why? The teachers aren't going to force it because there is no incentive for them. If the kids can get by doing the minimum then they will. Not many choose to do everything they can (especially in a state like TN when gpa started to become a qualifier for state lottery money). Do I take college algebra and get an A or do I take 6 math classes in 4 years and risk a B?

I know I wasn't ready to make any sort of meaningful choices about my future when I was in high school.

I'm not even going to get into the gpa/easy grading issues.
 
#31
#31
Does it not bother you that you would be using public tax money that would go to a private institution with an agenda, often religious?

I understand why people are frustrated with mediocrity, real or exaggerated, in different chunks of the public school system.

Just not sure that this is the way to fix that.

I don't think it would bother me if it meant them getting a better education. It just depends on what the classes were like and how my kid would fit in.
 
#32
#32
Does it not bother you that you would be using public tax money that would go to a private institution with an agenda, often religious?

I understand why people are frustrated with mediocrity, real or exaggerated, in different chunks of the public school system.

Just not sure that this is the way to fix that.

Does it bother you that the money currently goes to a public institution with an agenda? It doesn't bother me at all to let the parents decide.

I can assure you, they aren't fixing anything until they introduce competition into the marketplace for K-12 education.
 
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#33
#33

I've read like 3 pages of that stupid article and it still hasn't really explained how Finland is doing well. It mentioned that they put bad students with the best teachers.

Also, Finland is a country of 5 million people. This is what I was talking about with regard to doing it on the local level. That's smaller than Tennessee.
 
#34
#34
I've read like 3 pages of that stupid article and it still hasn't really explained how Finland is doing well. It mentioned that they put bad students with the best teachers.

Also, Finland is a country of 5 million people. This is what I was talking about with regard to doing it on the local level. That's smaller than Tennessee.

You asked for a country that has a successful public education system, right?

Start here:

The main objective of Finnish education policy is to offer all citizens equal opportunities to receive education, regardless of age, domicile, financial situation, sex or mother tongue.

Finns believe that education is a right, even past basic level.
 
#35
#35
You asked for a country that has a successful public education system, right?

Start here:

Finns believe that education is a right, even past basic level.

That's all it takes?????

Yeah, I didn't ask for a country specifically. Just a place. Thanks for pointing out Finland.
 
#37
#37
Finland is a small sample size.

Fire bad teachers
More vocational schools
Stop inclusion

I think they can extract enough data to find where they went right. That doesn't mean their plan can work here from the federal level. 300 million in population vs 5 million makes it a whole new ballgame.

Scandinavia is a weird place. Sweden has defied a lot of common wisdom about socialism. What I mean is that the elements of socialism there haven't dragged down the nation to the extent that it has other nations. Kevin Williamson wrote that Sweden's success (rather lack of failure) was based on a homogeneous society, and as it is becoming more heterogeneous the failures become more prominent.

For one, Swedes outlive Americans. This was credited to their advanced socialized medicine, but then data showed Swedes in America outlive Swedes in Sweden. Swedes on average do well in school, etc. As immigration increases these government programs are indicating less and less success.
 
#38
#38

I think the picture must be seen by all

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#39
#39
I've read like 3 pages of that stupid article and it still hasn't really explained how Finland is doing well. It mentioned that they put bad students with the best teachers.

Also, Finland is a country of 5 million people. This is what I was talking about with regard to doing it on the local level. That's smaller than Tennessee.

Every single country that's kicking our ass in education (which is a lot of them) is doing so with a public system.

The common threads tend to be leveling the playing field so every kid gets a top quality primary education (which would not happen under a privatized system, hence why they are not used). Requiring a much higher level of teacher education and training, right now in most four year universities, you go to the school of education as a back-up plan to other graduate programs. In most other countries, getting into a school of education is like trying to become an MD. Teachers in most of them tend to be unionized as well, but haven't collectively bargained to the level they have here.

The differences I'm sure both of us would agree with that are employed elsewhere are pay incentives and a tenure system that's much closer to the university system. The big ones IMO are a much lower level of stress on standardized testing and the increased ability of teachers and faculty to do what they feel it takes to get every kid up to par.

Both our current educational model and a fully privatized system (even with government vouchers) have a common problem: public models have a tracking system that was built for a time when most Americans weren't going to college, so it focused most of its work on getting a very-well educated small group of people, and most others on out into the work force. It worked for the post-WWII industrial boom. Any privatized system will have the same thing occurring through inherent natural inequality. Neither addresses the problem of why we get destroyed: Every other developed country provides a top-notch education system to every single one of its kids.

You're right about the difference in country sizes, as well. I think we would be best served by having the federal government lay a very basic framework for educational standards then have each state institute its own equivalent of am ministry of education that would be more or less autonomous from there on down.
 
#40
#40
I think they can extract enough data to find where they went right. That doesn't mean their plan can work here from the federal level. 300 million in population vs 5 million makes it a whole new ballgame.

Scandinavia is a weird place. Sweden has defied a lot of common wisdom about socialism. What I mean is that the elements of socialism there haven't dragged down the nation to the extent that it has other nations. Kevin Williamson wrote that Sweden's success (rather lack of failure) was based on a homogeneous society, and as it is becoming more heterogeneous the failures become more prominent.

For one, Swedes outlive Americans. This was credited to their advanced socialized medicine, but then data showed Swedes in America outlive Swedes in Sweden. Swedes on average do well in school, etc. As immigration increases these government programs are indicating less and less success.

I never bought into the "homogenous society" bs for explaining Sweden.

Again, you are right about not being able to implement any solutions at the federal level, it has to be done at the state. But it also has to keep the public system in place but introduce a bit more competitiveness for teachers while requiring much higher standards to get a job doing so.
 
#43
#43
Every single country that's kicking our ass in education (which is a lot of them) is doing so with a public system.

The common threads tend to be leveling the playing field so every kid gets a top quality primary education (which would not happen under a privatized system, hence why they are not used). Requiring a much higher level of teacher education and training, right now in most four year universities, you go to the school of education as a back-up plan to other graduate programs. In most other countries, getting into a school of education is like trying to become an MD. Teachers in most of them tend to be unionized as well, but haven't collectively bargained to the level they have here.

The differences I'm sure both of us would agree with that are employed elsewhere are pay incentives and a tenure system that's much closer to the university system. The big ones IMO are a much lower level of stress on standardized testing and the increased ability of teachers and faculty to do what they feel it takes to get every kid up to par.

Both our current educational model and a fully privatized system (even with government vouchers) have a common problem: public models have a tracking system that was built for a time when most Americans weren't going to college, so it focused most of its work on getting a very-well educated small group of people, and most others on out into the work force. It worked for the post-WWII industrial boom. Any privatized system will have the same thing occurring through inherent natural inequality. Neither addresses the problem of why we get destroyed: Every other developed country provides a top-notch education system to every single one of its kids.

You're right about the difference in country sizes, as well. I think we would be best served by having the federal government lay a very basic framework for educational standards then have each state institute its own equivalent of am ministry of education that would be more or less autonomous from there on down.

How do they accomplish this? You say it won't happen in privatized, I don't believe it can happen in public. The only way to do it is by holding some people back (and I still doubt you can make it level). What's keeping us back from leveling it? I mean, we all want good education and want it to be equal. What do they do to ensure that it is?

I would be interested to know who largest country "kicking our ass" in education is?
 
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#45
#45
I never bought into the "homogenous society" bs for explaining Sweden.

Again, you are right about not being able to implement any solutions at the federal level, it has to be done at the state. But it also has to keep the public system in place but introduce a bit more competitiveness for teachers while requiring much higher standards to get a job doing so.

It is interesting that their system is nosediving with increasing immigration. Maybe it's just correlation. It does take social programs time to bake and shape society. For instance, their productivity is ridiculous partly because of a nation-wide work attendance policy. You get tons and tons of sick days. Something like 80% of the population believes it's OK to take a sick day when you aren't sick. Surprise, surprise, work absenteeism due to illness* is super high. These are the kinds of attitudes these social programs foster. The system is becoming less and less sustainable.

*Ironic since their health care results are so good, right?
 
#46
#46
The United States is ranked #20 in the world (as of 2007, Education Index).

France (pop. 65M) and Spain (pop. 46M) rank higher. South Korea (pop. 48M) is kicking our asses. Australia has 22M people and is tied at #1 with Finland, Denmark, New Zealand, and Cuba.
 
#47
#47
How do they accomplish this? You say it won't happen in privatized, I don't believe it can happen in public. The only way to do it is by holding some people back (and I still doubt you can make it level). What's keeping us back from leveling it? I mean, we all want good education and want it to be equal. What do they do to ensure that it is?

I would be interested to know who largest country "kicking our ass" in education is?

World education rankings: which country does best at reading, maths and science? | News | guardian.co.uk

Probably Japan in terms of population.

No, you can't make the field perfectly level but it can be done closely. I'm short on time at the moment, but it can be and is done using what I mentioned earlier: Don't deunionize, but you do introduce a competitive payscale and get rid of automatic tenure. Require the same level of job training that you would of a lawyer or doctor and compensate likewise, but at the same time destandardize curriculum and grant the teachers themselves more agency to decide what to do with kids who are falling behind. They don't use some state-prescribed fix, they are smart and well-trained enough to come up with their own solutions at each school to maximize results out of all students. This would probably be best accomplished by having the federal government provide a very basic framework and having states split up federal grant money, put in a ministry of education and go from there. The best part is with vastly reduced testing standards and increased agency with the teachers, it would allow for a vast reduction of bureaucracy.

Bottom line is that public education is never going to be scrapped. It can work, but it needs a serious updating.

Marc S Tucker's Surpassing Shanghai is a great read concerning this area.
 
#49
#49
It is interesting that their system is nosediving with increasing immigration. Maybe it's just correlation. It does take social programs time to bake and shape society. For instance, their productivity is ridiculous partly because of a nation-wide work attendance policy. You get tons and tons of sick days. Something like 80% of the population believes it's OK to take a sick day when you aren't sick. Surprise, surprise, work absenteeism due to illness* is super high. These are the kinds of attitudes these social programs foster. The system is becoming less and less sustainable.

*Ironic since their health care results are so good, right?

Compared to ours, everybody's are. That's because we've got millions of brainwashed people who think it's okay to eat McD's on the reg then they get surprised when they're hit with type II diabeetus.
 
#50
#50
It is interesting that their system is nosediving with increasing immigration. Maybe it's just correlation. It does take social programs time to bake and shape society. For instance, their productivity is ridiculous partly because of a nation-wide work attendance policy. You get tons and tons of sick days. Something like 80% of the population believes it's OK to take a sick day when you aren't sick. Surprise, surprise, work absenteeism due to illness* is super high. These are the kinds of attitudes these social programs foster. The system is becoming less and less sustainable.

*Ironic since their health care results are so good, right?

Ridiculous as in low or high?
 

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