TEAM IS GETTING BETTER

[Vol67]

Improvement is happening... we are right there... need to get over the hump!!!

Nope

 

[BreatheUT]

Wait, do we know for sure ole Kell's not stomping her some omelets in practice and in the locker room? Just because we don't see it doesn't mean its not happening. She has plenty of conversations with players during games. Just because she doesn't showboat it doesn't mean she's not being firm with them. And what exactly is it you want her to do to them? I never understand the suggestion that the players will only play as hard as they have to in order not to get yelled at by the coach.

LOL maybe Jaz, like me, is so thrilled with the "good job running the team" part she's afraid to push it too far. Seriously, she has shown some scoring potential but sure doesn't seem to seek out scoring opportunities. Sure would help, especially as long as both Rae and Jordan are still a bit inconsistent. Any and every credible scoring threat is a big help to Davis.

That wasn't my quote. It is in my post because I think Harper is in the unenviable position of having to be careful though because she is not knocking it out the park in recruiting.

 

[PRG]

Ok, I was very critical of the Harper hire, but had a lot of optimism that she could turn it around. I do see a better chemistry on this team from an interpersonal perspective, but not much improvement on the court. The fact that this team has two players who were top 5 recruits (Rennia and Jordan) and several others who were top 25 in their respective class (Kasi, Rae, Jazmin) tells me that there is a serious coaching deficiency. To have 23 turnovers this late in the season is completely unacceptable. Post play on offense is virtually non-existent, and lack of fundamentals like boxing out, screen and roll, and hard cuts to the basket continue to be embarrassing. You cannot blame players for doing their best in a new system, but the level of raw talent that is on this team is something that can be harnessed to what should be an SEC 2nd or 3rd place level. I like coach Harper as a person and am very thankful for what she was able to help the program accomplish as a player. But you have to wonder what a Jeff Walz, Vic Schafer, Kim Mulkey, or even Coach Neighbors could get out of this team. If you watched the game last night, contrast the energy and enthusiasm of the Arkansas staff vs ours. Not even close. We all wanted the fire and drive of Pat Summit in our new coach, I just don't see it consistently. I don't care if we went 10-19 on the season, if a player continues to make simple mistakes such as telegraphing passes, not boxing out, or taking possessions off, Pat would have sat their butts on the bench to teach them the priviledge of playing in a Lady Vols uniform. More accountability needs to happen. This losing streak looks a lot like Holly's last year from a pure coaching perspective. I don't think the team gave up or simply dialed it in. I think they are longing for the discipline needed to help elevate their game.
I am willing to give coach Harper a chance - one season doesn't mean she doesn't have 'IT', but at the same time, allowing players to continue to under perform with little accountability does not bring confidence to this Lady Vols fan of 35+ years. CKH needs to stop worrying about the fragility of the team's mentality and stomp on a few egg shells instead of trying to walk on them. Again, the amount of talent on this team is really top 10 if you look at individual recruiting rankings. It's time to step up, hold these players accountable and instill that Pat Summit mentality of either produce on the court, or sit on the bench!

I liked your OP ! However , recruiting is my passion and your statements on rankings were not accurate .

2 top 5 recruits!
3 top 25 recruits !

Jordan #2 HG.
Rennia #12HG.
Jaz #25. HG.
Rae. #49 HG.
KK . #57 HG.

This is HG (Hoopgurlz) rankings . If you want Prospect Nation , I’ll be glad to give their rankings! But this should suffice to show they are not as high as you have insinuated .

By the way .... As I have stated before. Rae Burrell was the steal of her class ! JMO

No coaching deficiencies..... unless you are talking about Evina and Hayes and Tae and her friend DD ! Now you are talking about coaching deficiencies during those years
under Holly’s ? Now those players were rated pretty high ! And they all had plenty of turnovers to go around. Just saying

 

[Amb3096]

By the way .... As I have stated before. Rae Burrell was the steal of her class ! JMO

I dunno...Rhyne Howard, Jessika Carter and Elissa Cunane might say otherwise.

 

[VolRoger]

I liked your OP ! However , recruiting is my passion and your statements on rankings were not accurate .

2 top 5 recruits!
3 top 25 recruits !

Jordan #2 HG.
Rennia #12HG.
Jaz #25. HG.
Rae. #49 HG.
KK . #57 HG.

This is HG (Hoopgurlz) rankings . If you want Prospect Nation , I’ll be glad to give their rankings! But this should suffice to show they are not as high as you have insinuated .

By the way .... As I have stated before. Rae Burrell was the steal of her class ! JMO

No coaching deficiencies..... unless you are talking about Evina and Hayes and Tae and her friend who took her ball and left after saying she was gonna stay !!! under Holly’s years ? Now those players were rated pretty high ! Just saying

PRG, I’m totally unaware of recruiting rankings when it comes women’s basketball. Are these rankings you mention indicative of where each girl was as rated overall regardless of position? In the men’s game, those rankings would be quite a bit of talent. How does the rankings in the women’s game compare to the men?

 

[PRG]

PRG, I’m totally unaware of recruiting rankings when it comes women’s basketball. Are these rankings you mention indicative of where each girl was as rated overall regardless of position? In the men’s game, those rankings would be quite a bit of talent. How does the rankings in the women’s game compare to the men?

Yes .... these rankings are for OVERALL rank and not ranked by position. I usually follow Kentucky men’s ... my family from that state and father and I always watch Kentucky men’s games ... My son is a Duke fan and we usually jest about the top recruiting as to which team is Getting better recruits each year ! I loved watching Tennessee last year and Bruce Pearls teams at UT ! They have a good class coming next year with three in the top 40 ???
I think that is correct ?

The girls the last few years have been hard to watch ! Fundamentals out the window and just plain old BB principles ignored ! My biggest wonder with Holly ..... DD , Mercedes , and Nared .... how can you lose with three pros playing on the same team ?

Comparing rankings of women verses men is pretty much impossible. Men athletes can do more things physically that women cannot ! Like dunking and shooting from further out on the court ! The men’s defense is also a much more athletic. Just staying in front of the person you are guarding is better in the men and the women can rarely accomplish this BB principle! I hope you enjoyed my ramblings.

 

[PRG]

I dunno...Rhyne Howard, Jessika Carter and Elissa Cunane might say otherwise.

Watching Howard in the Tennessee state tournament. You could tell she was a good player . However , she was a total team player and showed little game take over abilities like she does now !
Mitchel has transformed this meek and mild player into a beast that is just a Sophomore and getting better ! She is fun to watch and she shows you why you cannot put too much faith into these ranking sites !

 

[Amb3096]

Watching Howard in the Tennessee state tournament. You could tell she was a good player . However , she was a total team player and showed little game take over abilities like she does now !
Mitchel has transformed this meek and mild player into a beast that is just a Sophomore and getting better ! She is fun to watch and she shows you why you cannot put too much faith into these ranking sites !

The funny thing about Howard is that she came out of the gate roaring on Day 1. Don't know what Mitchell did to flip that switch in her during the off-season, but whatever he did worked like magic!

 

[PG1]

11th seed last year projected 11th seed this year Sorry no improvement!

 

[Ladyvolfan4ever]

If Mulkey, Muffett, Dawn, or Geno were coaching this team, how would they be playing and what would the W/L record be?

Pretty sure our record is better than Norte Dame this year. All these big coaches will retire one of these days and those teams will have to go through rebuilding like Tn has with the absence of Pat Summitt.

 

[VolBall09]

Pretty sure our record is better than Norte Dame this year. All these big coaches will retire one of these days and those teams will have to go through rebuilding like Tn has with the absence of Pat Summitt.

This concept isn’t discussed enough here. We a really are the first women’s basketball program to experience the loss of a verifiable legend. The next closest thing would have been Conradt at Texas, but even she didn’t touch what Pat did and she transitioned out by choice.

Teams like UCONN and Stanford will likely have similar experiences in the next 5 years. I’m the grand scheme of things WBB is a young sport.

 

[krichunaka]

11th seed last year projected 11th seed this year Sorry no improvement!

Didn’t we graduate a couple good players? And weren’t there two transfers?
And have you considered the season-ending injury to whom many here believe is our best overall player and team leader?
I do not want to waste your time arguing; after all, I watched only a few minutes of live action last season.
But, from where is your starting point?
What is the basis of contrast for your statement?
Because, to me at least, last season is not the logical place to begin. Coach Kellie wasn’t here. Several of the players were not here. So, to be fair, let’s begin around April, 2019.
We have Rennia, Kamera, Kasi, Rae, and Jazmine; Isn’t it fair to assert that this group - in whole, and individually - is/are improved?
Next season’s end will be the first reasonably fair opportunity to debate “improvement.”

 

[teacherdean]

Ok, I was very critical of the Harper hire, but had a lot of optimism that she could turn it around. I do see a better chemistry on this team from an interpersonal perspective, but not much improvement on the court. The fact that this team has two players who were top 5 recruits (Rennia and Jordan) and several others who were top 25 in their respective class (Kasi, Rae, Jazmin) tells me that there is a serious coaching deficiency. To have 23 turnovers this late in the season is completely unacceptable. Post play on offense is virtually non-existent, and lack of fundamentals like boxing out, screen and roll, and hard cuts to the basket continue to be embarrassing. You cannot blame players for doing their best in a new system, but the level of raw talent that is on this team is something that can be harnessed to what should be an SEC 2nd or 3rd place level. I like coach Harper as a person and am very thankful for what she was able to help the program accomplish as a player. But you have to wonder what a Jeff Walz, Vic Schafer, Kim Mulkey, or even Coach Neighbors could get out of this team. If you watched the game last night, contrast the energy and enthusiasm of the Arkansas staff vs ours. Not even close. We all wanted the fire and drive of Pat Summit in our new coach, I just don't see it consistently. I don't care if we went 10-19 on the season, if a player continues to make simple mistakes such as telegraphing passes, not boxing out, or taking possessions off, Pat would have sat their butts on the bench to teach them the priviledge of playing in a Lady Vols uniform. More accountability needs to happen. This losing streak looks a lot like Holly's last year from a pure coaching perspective. I don't think the team gave up or simply dialed it in. I think they are longing for the discipline needed to help elevate their game.
I am willing to give coach Harper a chance - one season doesn't mean she doesn't have 'IT', but at the same time, allowing players to continue to under perform with little accountability does not bring confidence to this Lady Vols fan of 35+ years. CKH needs to stop worrying about the fragility of the team's mentality and stomp on a few egg shells instead of trying to walk on them. Again, the amount of talent on this team is really top 10 if you look at individual recruiting rankings. It's time to step up, hold these players accountable and instill that Pat Summit mentality of either produce on the court, or sit on the bench!

Though I agree with several things you stated, this team is young and 75% of our offense is gone. With Zay out of the lineup, we do not have a floor General. Harris is not a 5 star and most of the time KK doesn’t play like she had any stars. Sometimes I believe the former coaching staff went after star behind their names and not players who fit a scheme. I still believe that KJH will turn the ship around, however, she seems to be lost as to what to do with the present players.

Many announcers feel that we do not effectively use our height to our advantage, however, when we try the ball is usually brought down and is stolen. In addition, we throw a lot of our scoring by missing easy scoring opportunities. Our post players have a hard time catching the ball. We get a lot of rebounds but lose a lot of them because we don’t jump or hold on to the ball. I am sure KJH and her staff teach the fundamentals, however, our players have issues with their BB IQ. I do know that if KJH can’t figure it out in the remaining games and the SEC Tournament, we might be WNIT bound.

 

[PRG]

I dunno...Rhyne Howard, Jessika Carter and Elissa Cunane might say otherwise.

Just looked up your other players. Howard I am familiar with and her ranking was 20 points higher than the others! A top 10 verses a top 20 will have a good gap in my opinion. However, there certainly have been some failures to reach their potential? Howard at 32 verses the other players 46 , 49, 55 , is about that 20 range of evaluations. However , the gap between top ten and twenty would be greater than say a top 40 or 50 ranking ! Howard is surely a top ten talent in her class ! And certainly be considered a steal in this class also ! JMO

On our team .... Rae was a top fifty ranking . Jaz was a top 25 ranking which leads to the comparison of Rae verses Jaz... Differences are positions and offense verses defense and ball handling and rebounding! Both are better or worse depending on which BB skill you are judging by ... Bottom line .... is Rae’s value to the team equal to Jaz? I say they are close in their contributions to the team . JMO

Zaay is a top ten ranking and based on her one year of play...... I think she will earn that ranking ! And is certainly expected to contribute more than Jaz or Rae . again JMO

I am not familiar with the other players, and cannot guess any comparisons. But if you ask the coaches .... I think Mitchel and Kelly would like to have both players! I guess the question begs... would they swap ?

 

[VolRoger]

Yes .... these rankings are for OVERALL rank and not ranked by position. I usually follow Kentucky men’s ... my family from that state and father and I always watch Kentucky men’s games ... My son is a Duke fan and we usually jest about the top recruiting as to which team is Getting better recruits each year ! I loved watching Tennessee last year and Bruce Pearls teams at UT ! They have a good class coming next year with three in the top 40 ???
I think that is correct ?

The girls the last few years have been hard to watch ! Fundamentals out the window and just plain old BB principles ignored ! My biggest wonder with Holly ..... DD , Mercedes , and Nared .... how can you lose with three pros playing on the same team ?

Comparing rankings of women verses men is pretty much impossible. Men athletes can do more things physically that women cannot ! Like dunking and shooting from further out on the court ! The men’s defense is also a much more athletic. Just staying in front of the person you are guarding is better in the men and the women can rarely accomplish this BB principle! I hope you enjoyed my ramblings.

Thanks for the response. My real question is not so much comparing the ability of lady basketball players vs men but more so about whether a relative ranking within the ladies game should be looked at with the same value as the men. In other words, is a 47th overall ranking for a high school senior lady to be looked at the same way as the same ranking for a high school male player. Or is there a steeper drop from say a top 20 player to 47 in the women’s game because the depth of talent is smaller than with the guys. I ask because several posters in this thread are saying the talent on the Lady Vols is low. Yet the rankings you gave out if they’re like the guys would be a highly touted group of players. Your answer sounds like there is a steeper fall off earlier in the rankings.

 

[Amb3096]

The boys are much more athletic and can mask deficiencies in skills with being able to get to the rim more easily. There are some women that can do so as well, but I think it's harder for then in general to hide lack of ability through sheer athletic prowess. KK is a perfect example of that.

 

[Twinsbornoncampus]

Jessie Rennie seems much improved. She's finding ways to get open, and she made fundamentally sound, crisp passes last night. It seems that she is catching up to the speed of the game. She's a gamer, as she proved when she took the charge on that 4-on-1 break a couple of games ago.

I think she was open right after hitting consecutive threes when Jordan chose to spin into the lane against two defenders and traveled. Poor decision.

we need to learn that there are many ways to make a entry pass into the post. The player will most times have a defender on her but still make the pass. Rae, Rennia, Jazmine cannot seems to make an entry when the post has a player behind them where they will always be. Mostly I see we need to learn how to make a simple pass, anticipate, and know where they are and where the defenders are. We keep our heads down when we should be looking and if we can’t do that allow someone who can to handle the ball that is a part of an unselfish team.

 

[glv98]

And have you considered the season-ending injury to whom many here believe is our best overall player and team leader?

Not picking on you b/c I see this all the time. But do you really think Zaay as we last saw her was better than Davis is right now? Listen, I'm sorry she got hurt and the team has missed her greatly, she would definitely have been a badly needed scoring option. But are we remembering her thru rose-colored glasses? I remember her a little Rae-like.

I am sure KJH and her staff teach the fundamentals, however, our players have issues with their BB IQ.

Not picking on you either but I don't like the term BB IQ. Implies an intellectual deficit in being able to comprehend what the coaching staff is trying to teach them. So now in addition to being lazy loafers they're dumb? I thought we liked these girls ya'll!

The problem's not an inability to grasp what their supposed to do, it's lack of physical skill to be able to carry it out. During a game. With those pesky defenders all over you. So LOL I guess I'm saying its better to call them undertalented and underdeveloped than dumb.

 

[Amb3096]

Not picking on you b/c I see this all the time. But do you really think Zaay as we last saw her was better than Davis is right now? Listen, I'm sorry she got hurt and the team has missed her greatly, she would definitely have been a badly needed scoring option. But are we remembering her thru rose-colored glasses? I remember her a little Rae-like.

Not picking on you either but I don't like the term BB IQ. Implies an intellectual deficit in being able to comprehend what the coaching staff is trying to teach them. So now in addition to being lazy loafers they're dumb? I thought we liked these girls ya'll!

The problem's not an inability to grasp what their supposed to do, it's lack of physical skill to be able to carry it out. During a game. With those pesky defenders all over you. So LOL I guess I'm saying its better to call them undertalented and underdeveloped than dumb.

Agree that Zaay was at best the 2nd best player on the team. I've always thought Davis was (along with Evina) the best player on the team. But they have clearly suffered not having a consistent 2nd scoring option. No other player has been able to reliably step into this role.

I don't think low bball IQ implies dumb at all. The way I see it is less to do with athletic ability and more about reacting to the moment, and some players are just better developed at this. Boston vs. Key is a good example. They are about equal athletic ability, but Boston is so much better at knowing when to shoot vs. when to pass. Same with Horston or Burrell plowing into standstill defenders for offensive fouls vs. someone like Danberry from MSST who knows when to pull up for a short jumper instead. It seems less about following specific coaching instruction vs. having good instincts to make the best play possible.

 

[teacherdean]

Not picking on you b/c I see this all the time. But do you really think Zaay as we last saw her was better than Davis is right now? Listen, I'm sorry she got hurt and the team has missed her greatly, she would definitely have been a badly needed scoring option. But are we remembering her thru rose-colored glasses? I remember her a little Rae-like.

Not picking on you either but I don't like the term BB IQ. Implies an intellectual deficit in being able to comprehend what the coaching staff is trying to teach them. So now in addition to being lazy loafers they're dumb? I thought we liked these girls ya'll!

The problem's not an inability to grasp what their supposed to do, it's lack of physical skill to be able to carry it out. During a game. With those pesky defenders all over you. So LOL I guess I'm saying its better to call them undertalented and underdeveloped than dumb.

Number one, lack of a BBIQ do not mean a player is stupid or dumb. It might be that they have not been properly trained. I highly doubt the problem is they are undertalented, now saying each player does not have the same skill sets, makes a lot more sense. If you do not understand how to set a pick, you do not know how to jump for a rebound, you don’t know that you can’t pass a ball through the eye of a needle, you don’t know when you are in the paint and you are close to the goal, you do not bring the ball down so that a smaller player can take the ball, or tie you up, etc. Those are things you should have learned in middle school.

 

[krichunaka]

Not picking on you b/c I see this all the time. But do you really think Zaay as we last saw her was better than Davis is right now? Listen, I'm sorry she got hurt and the team has missed her greatly, she would definitely have been a badly needed scoring option. But are we remembering her thru rose-colored glasses? I remember her a little Rae-like.
I do not feel picked on - I said something; you said something. Fair enough.
Your question, however, suggests that I called Zaay our best player, whereas in fact, I was referencing “others.” I further clarified that I saw only minutes of last season’s team, IOW, the context of my statements/questions, I thought was clear.
But, I do think your question deserves an answer: From what I have seen this season, and based on our team strength, support, personnel, etc., I think that Rennia Davis is one of the best players in the NCAA. Top ten, top twenty? I don’t know ...but she’s having an all-star season.
I also think that with a healthy Zaay Green, we are not sweating making the NCAA Tournament. But, in such a scenario, it would be unfair to compare Zaay “then” vs, Rennia “now.” We simply have no body of work for Zaay. But, such a comparison was never my intent.

Not picking on you either but I don't like the term BB IQ. Implies an intellectual deficit in being able to comprehend what the coaching staff is trying to teach them. So now in addition to being lazy loafers they're dumb? I thought we liked these girls ya'll!

The problem's not an inability to grasp what their supposed to do, it's lack of physical skill to be able to carry it out. During a game. With those pesky defenders all over you. So LOL I guess I'm saying its better to call them undertalented and underdeveloped than dumb.

This question was not addressed to me, but I commented on just this subject very recently, in which I referenced Glory Johnson, a brilliant, honors student, whose body-mind were a bit out of balance. Glory was anything but ...”dumb.”
But, I know, and have known MANY “dumb jocks,” as they were called, who were incredibly “heady” athletes, and specifically in basketball. The just “got it!”
I will add only that, some players - and more specifically, girls - can be so emotionally overwhelmed, as to look physically challenged. Theirs is most often NOT physical, nor is it “academic” ...just a lot of internal conflict or stress. So, I think we agree on this part, but it’s certainly a delicate subject.

 

[Chitownvol1129]

Passing to post, is beyond horrible. No reason Key should ever receive a bounce pass at knee level, she should only receive passes over her head, same with Kasi. The team should be fresher than any team they play by 4th quarter, with all the mass subbing, yet we stand around in 4th quarter, or really earlier in half quart offense. Passes across court are terrible, either way over heads out of bounds, or so telegraphed a third grade player could see it coming, yet we still havent stopped any of this, it seems worse, of course teams have tons of film to study and see it coming. We dribble into trouble and no one, no motion to offense. Lately team didnt even know what to do late on a game, to press, to foul, and kellie refused to stop game with timeouts we ended game with. These things scare me about this staff. I hope for improvements, but, except Kellie figuring out to call timeouts in last 2 games, they really appear to be no improvement, and ultimately, if team can't improve on fundamentals, then coaching staff needs to rethink teaching methods as if they are addressing hussle, passing, game management etc, they are highly ineffective. Staff changes need to be made after season. Not Kellie, but certainly her staff isnt all cut out for this level of basketball. We need a solid recruiter. Possibly fire Mr Harper and offer Law the head assistant job, or move him down bench, not like he would go coach somewhere else. Not sold of couples on any staff or in any management group, it forces sides that will always be bias to couples thought

 

[volnationnj]

Agree that Zaay was at best the 2nd best player on the team. I've always thought Davis was (along with Evina) the best player on the team. But they have clearly suffered not having a consistent 2nd scoring option. No other player has been able to reliably step into this role.

I don't think low bball IQ implies dumb at all. The way I see it is less to do with athletic ability and more about reacting to the moment, and some players are just better developed at this. Boston vs. Key is a good example. They are about equal athletic ability, but Boston is so much better at knowing when to shoot vs. when to pass. Same with Horston or Burrell plowing into standstill defenders for offensive fouls vs. someone like Danberry from MSST who knows when to pull up for a short jumper instead. It seems less about following specific coaching instruction vs. having good instincts to make the best play possible.

Agreed. Let's look at basketball IQ as judgement. Should I throw the pass, into the post from this angle, with the defenders where they are, or should I pass it to the key, where my teammate has a different angle for the entry pass ?
Numerous factors involved and the decision has to be made in a fraction of a second. Nothing to do with general intelligence, everything to do with basketball judgement.

 

[creekdipper]

It's not much different from quarterbacks who try to force passes into tight coverage or who get sacked for big losses rather than throwing the ball out of bounds. Or linemen who jump offsides, backs and receivers who run routes short of the sticks on third down, backs who carry ball loosely or don't get out of bounds to stop clock, kick returners who don't call for fair catch and get blasted, enfs who rough the kicker, etc. Whether poor judgment or overconfidence, those are game situation errors that are costly. And they can be made by players who are good students.

To paraphrase Dirty Harry, "A girl's gotta know her limitations."

 

[Volfan2012]

Since we are inexperienced at point guard and in the post about as well as any coach could've done. We don't have a point guard with a consistent outside shot and none of the inside players have been able to make enough plays inside even when they had the chance. The good news is that these players will get better and the future looks good for Tennessee.