Tennessee drops from AP Top 25

[Nuyoika]

You are dreaming...

Even if they don't beat Texas they could still get back in. When you look at their OOC and their conference schedule if they win vs a few ranked teams they could come back in somewhere between 20 & 25. Now to get any higher than that they will have to beat some teams no one thought they could beat.

I think most TN fans knew once Carter wasn't coming back and then they lost Cooper that this year was going to be rough. In the event they do get back in they can't go losing to bad team anymore or they will be out for good.

 

[Amb3096]

Even if they don't beat Texas they could still get back in. When you look at their OOC and their conference schedule if they win vs a few ranked teams they could come back in somewhere between 20 & 25. Now to get any higher than that they will have to beat some teams no one thought they could beat.

I think most TN fans knew once Carter wasn't coming back and then they lost Cooper that this year was going to be rough. In the event they do get back in they can't go losing to bad team anymore or they will be out for good.

They have an uphill climb. Their OOC does them no good if they lose to all of the good teams, plus PSU and VT (still TBD if VT is actually good. ACC will determine that). That means they have 6 losses and no wins against any decent teams.

If they can't beat Miss State, SC, UK, AU, TAMU and UF during the SEC season, the chances of them re-entering the Top 25 are non-existent. I don't think they have a chance against MSU, SC or UK. They need to beat AU, TAMU and UF, and avoid losses to the lower half of the SEC...which based on play to date seems highly unlikely.

I had lower expectations this season compared to going into last season, mainly because of the loss of Bashaara and Te'a. However, I did think that although they couldn't replace the departing players, they could fix the chemistry issues...which has not been the case so far. Shame on me for expecting nice things from Holly.

 

[Nuyoika]

They have an uphill climb. Their OOC does them no good if they lose to all of the good teams, plus PSU and VT (still TBD if VT is actually good. ACC will determine that). That means they have 6 losses and no wins against any decent teams.

If they can't beat Miss State, SC, UK, AU, TAMU and UF during the SEC season, the chances of them re-entering the Top 25 are non-existent. I don't think they have a chance against MSU, SC or UK. They need to beat AU, TAMU and UF, and avoid losses to the lower half of the SEC...which based on play to date seems highly unlikely.

I had lower expectations this season compared to going into last season, mainly because of the loss of Bashaara and Te'a. However, I did think that although they couldn't replace the departing players, they could fix the chemistry issues...which has not been the case so far. Shame on me for expecting nice things from Holly.

They most certainly have a long road ahead. The main reason I think they get back in is because in WCBB there really isn't ever 25 really good teams. The bottom 8 or so spots change pretty frequently and with the OOC schedule some of these teams have Tennessee has an opportunity currently sitting @ 30 to get back in once conference play starts.

I agree if they don't do well in conference and have a few more bone head losses they don't get back in at all. We'll see what kind of fight they have in them vs Texas.

 

[LVJeff]

Since she stepped on the floor last year she has had one great game against Ohio St. in the tournament. The rest of the time she has been inconsistent...maybe due to Holly's coaching. Even as a lame duck AD Dave Hart should step in and make the call for a new coach. Unfortunately, the season has already started. Had he done it after last season he could have gotten Sue Samrau from FSU.

Are you saying this as fact or speculation? Honest question, not a jab.

As nearly as I can gather, Semrau is a respected head coach that has had good, but not great success. She has coached at FSU for 20 seasons and has won 63% of her games. She has been to 12 NCAA Tournaments, including two Elite Eight appearances. She is 53 years old and a native of Seattle.

According to the FSU athletic dept web site she makes just under $200,000 annually.

 

[clkou]

Against teams that have competent defenses and offenses, we will always be in trouble because our defense is just "ok" and our offense is "awful". It'll take a team with a mediocre defense to allow us to score just on pure talent. It'll take a team with a poor offense to mask our poor offense.

I haven't seen us have a good offense since 2008 so unfortunately I've come to expect it until proven otherwise.

I think most TN fans knew once Carter wasn't coming back and then they lost Cooper that this year was going to be rough. In the event they do get back in they can't go losing to bad team anymore or they will be out for good.

Meh. I assumed with a competent coaching staff and having Mercedes and Diamond and the usually All Americans or top 50 ranked players we usually have that we'd do well regardless. Unfortunately the coaching staff is not competent and that will always plague us.

 

[lvocd]

Against teams that have competent defenses and offenses, we will always be in trouble because our defense is just "ok" and our offense is "awful". It'll take a team with a mediocre defense to allow us to score just on pure talent. It'll take a team with a poor offense to mask our poor offense.

I haven't seen us have a good offense since 2008 so unfortunately I've come to expect it until proven otherwise.

Not ironically, 2008 was the last season Pat was even close to being 100% Pat. IMO, there were small signs even then that she was losing her edge, but after that season, the brain disease started taking its toll little by little.

Which brings me to this hard truth: Pat Summitt's brain was ravaged by disease when she chose Holly Warlick to be her successor. Let that sink in.

 

[NoBackBoard]

Not ironically, 2008 was the last season Pat was even close to being 100% Pat. IMO, there were small signs even then that she was losing her edge, but after that season, the brain disease started taking its toll little by little.

Which brings me to this hard truth: Pat Summitt's brain was ravaged by disease when she chose Holly Warlick to be her successor. Let that sink in.

Have some class.

 

[teacherdean]

As things presently stand the Lady Vols are on borrowed time made possible by the history of the program, however, Holly is taking the program down a path it may never recover from. If the ship is going to be reset on the path to become a championship caliber team, next year will certainly be a make or break year. Holly will have speed, height, shooters and, I believe 7 5 stars. No matter what we think of Holly, she will be back next year, unless we happen to have an AD, like the one at Vanderbilt, that realized that the women's basketball program needed a change. She will have the number one class and Cooper to handle the point. If she can't show an upperward trend with next year's talent, she should be out, no excuses.

 

[lvocd]

Not ironically, 2008 was the last season Pat was even close to being 100% Pat. IMO, there were small signs even then that she was losing her edge, but after that season, the brain disease started taking its toll little by little.

Which brings me to this hard truth: Pat Summitt's brain was ravaged by disease when she chose Holly Warlick to be her successor. Let that sink in.

I admit it is an ugly truth, and I apologize for airing it publicly. I love Holly the person. Holly the loyal Lady Vol is among the best people in Tennessee. Holly the loyal, sweet "good cop" to Pat's "bad cop" when it came to discipline was EXCELLENT in that role, and probably kept several of Tennessee's greatest superstars from throwing in the towel and transferring.

However, Holly the Head Coach is playing a role that seems unnatural to her, and it shows.

And a 100% well Pat Summitt would have had, in my opinion, better judgement. She herself said that it's impossible to become a disciplinarian AFTER you've been the nice guy. That's the explanation she gave for how she'd been able to maintain her managerial advantage over the players for so long -- she kept the player-to-player stuff serious and professional. It was up to the other coaches to soothe hurt feelings.

Knowing that's one of the things Pat herself knew to be extremely important to having a successful program, would a 100% well Pat decide to put the least "bad cop"-capable person ever on the staff in charge of the whole program?

 

[clkou]

I'm not sure anyone could have had the foresight to know she wouldn't be a good head coach. But now we know and something needs to be done sooner rather than later.

 

[hokievol12]

I agree about Pat suffering several years with her disease before being diagnosed, and coming forward with a public announcement. My dad died in 2010 from complications of Alzheimer's...first signs came around 2000, so the struggle lasted a decade. Pat probably had early symptoms as early as 2008-2009. Many victims of this disease battle 8-10 years. So yes, her dementia could have started as early as 2007-2008.

 

[lvocd]

I agree about Pat suffering several years with her disease before being diagnosed, and coming forward with a public announcement. My dad died in 2010 from complications of Alzheimer's...first signs came around 2000, so the struggle lasted a decade. Pat probably had early symptoms as early as 2008-2009. Many victims of this disease battle 8-10 years. So yes, her dementia could have started as early as 2007-2008.

Yes, hokievol, that 8-10-year span held true for the family members I've had to die from the horrible disease. The first few years the symptoms were just chalked up to the normal aging process, and they'd kept the fears of the occasional more severe symptoms that would arise to themselves.

I noticed (granted, from afar) that Pat was subtly changing around 2007, and every year after that my fears grew that something potentially serious was happening.

So when the horrible announcement was finally made, I wasn't surprised.

 

[NoBackBoard]

I'm not sure anyone could have had the foresight to know she wouldn't be a good head coach. But now we know and something needs to be done sooner rather than later.

I called it during Pat's last season. I had a feeling Holly wouldn't work out but I talked to other fans and there was tons of initial support for Holly.

 

[hokievol12]

Yes, hokievol, that 8-10-year span held true for the family members I've had to die from the horrible disease. The first few years the symptoms were just chalked up to the normal aging process, and they'd kept the fears of the occasional more severe symptoms that would arise to themselves.

I noticed (granted, from afar) that Pat was subtly changing around 2007, and every year after that my fears grew that something potentially serious was happening.

So when the horrible announcement was finally made, I wasn't surprised.

I've heard that traumatic experiences, such as a divorce, or the death of someone really close, can trigger the disease. My mom died in early January, 2000, and we took dad on a trip to New Mexico 8-9 months later. My son was spending a semester at New Mexico State University as an exchange student from Virginia Tech. We got into Las Cruces late Saturday night...and dad looked at me and said "I don't like your driving, I might get out of here and walk back to the barracks." I started thinking, he was stationed at an Army-Air Force base in Wichita Falls, Texas, at the end of WWII...maybe he thought he was back in the area...came totally out of left field...I forgot about it...until Alzheimer's symptoms started popping up a year or so later...frequently.

 

[LVJeff]

I called it during Pat's last season. I had a feeling Holly wouldn't work out but I talked to other fans and there was tons of initial support for Holly.

The overriding memory I have of Pat's last season was of her sitting in a chair on the sideline like a statue. Meanwhile Holly was pacing up and down the sideline with with her hands in her hair. It was a weird image all season long.

I thought Holly's nerves wouldn't let her be head coach. Yeah I know it's easy to say that almost five years later, but that's what I thought then. But then she was named head coach and I thought well okay let's go. And in Harrison's second season the team was really really good, and I thought well this is going to work out.

It's still a bit of a mystery to me why that team was as good as it was while each successive team has been worse and worse and worse.

 

[Volfan2012]

Holly has to hope she can make it through this season with less that 15 losses and then see what the freshmen coming in can do combined with Russell.
No doubt in my mind that Hayes and Cooper will be a lot better than what we have at point guard this season. Green is certainly going to give us a scoring option at the four. Rennia Davis will score as much or more and shoot a percentage as good as any opponent player she faces next season.
Holly has to limit damage this season and that want be easy. I think our NCAA string is going down this season unless a miracle occurs.

 

[lvocd]

It's still a bit of a mystery to me why that team was as good as it was while each successive team has been worse and worse and worse.

A mystery? Really?

Even in her severely compromised condition, Pat was still Head Coach and was at every practice and not allowing players to slack or whine or simply go through the motions without fearing the consequences. No mystery.

 

[LVJeff]

A mystery? Really?

Even in her severely compromised condition, Pat was still Head Coach and was at every practice and not allowing players to slack or whine or simply go through the motions without fearing the consequences. No mystery.

I'm talking about the season after Pat left.

 

[Darth_Vol]

It's still a bit of a mystery to me why that team was as good as it was while each successive team has been worse and worse and worse.

It's not a mystery. Even in her limited capacity Pat left behind a system and players she personally evaluated and recruited. It's not a coincidence as those players have phased out while Holly has implemented her own "system" (whatever the hell it is) while bringing in her own players to fit that philosophy the program has bottomed out....

 

[clkou]

It's not a mystery. Even in her limited capacity Pat left behind a system and players she personally evaluated and recruited. It's not a coincidence as those players have phased out while Holly has implemented her own "system" (whatever the hell it is) while bringing in her own players to fit that philosophy the program has bottomed out....

Exactly. That's why I didn't criticize the coaching staff much for the first 4 years because they were really Pat's players playing Pat's system. I gave Holly and company the benefit of the doubt that they needed time to implement THEIR system with their players. Turns out it's not a good system if a system at all and it doesn't matter what players get recruited because no one can save them from it.

I don't even want Holly to leave per se. I just don't want her as the head coach. Presumably she did good things as an assistant under Pat and someone is responsible for the recruiting (except for last year) so whoever gets credit for that should stay, too.

We just need a competent, GOOD head coach. I personally like Muffet and Walz because I feel they consistently do well with less and if they had the talent we had they could both win National Championships I think.

I DON'T like Staley, Mulkey, Mitchell, Frese, or VanDerveer. I'm not saying they are bad like Holly but they just aren't the level of good we are aiming for.

 

[lvocd]

We just need a competent, GOOD head coach. I personally like Muffet and Walz because I feel they consistently do well with less and if they had the talent we had they could both win National Championships I think.

I DON'T like Staley, Mulkey, Mitchell, Frese, or VanDerveer. I'm not saying they are bad like Holly but they just aren't the level of good we are aiming for.

Both Muffett and VanDerveer were born to coach where they each are currently successful, so I can't imagine a circumstance under which either of those two would take any other job offer.

I personally wouldn't be fond of the choice of Walz. Something about him sets off negative alarms for me. I worry about shenanigans with him.

I like Staley and think she has performed a miracle getting the former perennially bad South Carolina all the way to the top of the SEC in a relatively short time, along with doing an outstanding job recruiting new loyal fans. That said, even she falls short (so far) of being able to put together a strong offense that adequately takes advantage of the top-notch talent she has brought in.

Hard "no"s to Mitchell and Frese for my taste, even though both are big names that I think could be convinced to leave their current situations.

Out of all your possibles, I'd choose Mulkey. She has a well-known, healthy respect for Pat's legacy, and I think she'd fit in well in Knoxville.

I could be extremely happy with Gary Blair, or if Leon Barmore could be coaxed out of retirement, that would work for me, too.

I'm going back into this to say that even though I respect and admire the seasoned coaches I mentioned above, I suppose the ideal situation would be if there were a big-name younger coach out there. Someone with energy (like Staley) but with a creative mind.

There are those who would disagree strongly with me based on their lukewarm success with other programs, but I feel that both Jolly-Harper and Caldwell-Fargas have the potential to find FAR more success at Tennessee than anywhere else either of them has been. Let me explain.

At those other places, the recruiting basket for both of them was far less filled with tempting goodies than it would be for an exciting young coach at Tennessee. If Harper, a Tennessee native and beloved former Lady Vol with actual head coaching experience, were to take over, she'd have an easier time convincing young players to come to Tennessee to help her fulfill lots of peoples' dreams than she has ever had anywhere else.

Caldwell was well on her way to becoming a UCLA legend when she answered the call to come back South to be closer to family. Pat once commented that Nikki was the closest to being like her than anyone else she's ever coached with, and that was telling.

Given the money and the freedom to hire WELL, I don't think either Kelley or Nikki would be dumb enough to not hire a brilliant offense-minded assistant. I just don't.

So I could be happy with either of them because, again, recruiting to Tennessee would be an easier job for either of them than they've had elsewhere.

 

[NoBackBoard]

Holly has to hope she can make it through this season with less that 15 losses and then see what the freshmen coming in can do combined with Russell.
No doubt in my mind that Hayes and Cooper will be a lot better than what we have at point guard this season. Green is certainly going to give us a scoring option at the four. Rennia Davis will score as much or more and shoot a percentage as good as any opponent player she faces next season.
Holly has to limit damage this season and that want be easy. I think our NCAA string is going down this season unless a miracle occurs.

Evina Westbrook is our pg. Hayes has already told her she's fine with it and I can't see Cooper beating her out for it. Hayes will probably come off the bench and Cooper should be our sg.

 

[LVJeff]

It's not a mystery. Even in her limited capacity Pat left behind a system and players she personally evaluated and recruited. It's not a coincidence as those players have phased out while Holly has implemented her own "system" (whatever the hell it is) while bringing in her own players to fit that philosophy the program has bottomed out....

Unfortunately that doesn't jive with the narrative of this board that Holly ruins all the players. She didn't ruin that bunch.

 

[Amb3096]

Evina Westbrook is our pg. Hayes has already told her she's fine with it and I can't see Cooper beating her out for it. Hayes will probably come off the bench and Cooper should be our sg.

Remember last year when everyone was saying Cooper was the PG that Tennessee desperately needed to get back to contender status? That didn't work out so well...

The freshmen have the potential to be good players, but it's unlikely that they'll be the ones running the team next season.

 

[Amb3096]

Unfortunately that doesn't jive with the narrative of this board that Holly ruins all the players. She didn't ruin that bunch.

She didn't ruin them, but she didn't make them better either. Massengale, Burdick and Graves were all Top 5 recruits, and none of them are in the WNBA. Their games barely developed in the latter stages of their career playing under Holly, and Massengale was criminally misused so that Jordan could play PG.