Tennessee preparing for the future with salaries for athletes.

[VFL-82-JP]

The NCAA is as obsolete as the horse-drawn buggy. What anyone claims their original intent was is irrelevant.

They're not obsolete. As much as we don't like some of the things they've done re NIL lately, they're far from obsolete.

If they were obsolete, we could disband them today.

Think March Madness would happen if we did that? Think our basketVols would have a chance to play for a national championship? Who would run it? That's a really complex job, running a tournament at multiple venues all over the US. Can you do it if the NCAA doesn't? Can you?

And that's just one of many. Many, many, many things the NCAA does other than policing recruitment eligibility.

Far from obsolete. At times despicable, but not obsolete.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Did they? Anything I can read?

Title IX has been used in various cases, usually at the lower levels, because the NCAA decided long ago to comply with civil rights laws.

But, of course, the colleges started offering more women's opportunities after Title IX laws surfaced. Currently, I think it's Oregon or Washington women's athletes are suing under Title IX because of unequal NIL opportunities.

If you're not aware Title IX changed college program s, you've really buried your head in the sand.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

“Logical fallacies” in a mantra and the women who love them…on the next Geraldo.

Wrong. It what people use when they are unable to debate factually and cogently.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

They're not obsolete. As much as we don't like some of the things they've done re NIL lately, they're far from obsolete.

If they were obsolete, we could disband them today.

Think March Madness would happen if we did that? Think our basketVols would have a chance to play for a national championship? Who would run it? That's a really complex job, running a tournament at multiple venues all over the US. Can you do it if the NCAA doesn't? Can you?

And that's just one of many. Many, many, many things the NCAA does other than policing recruitment eligibility.

Far from obsolete. At times despicable, but not obsolete.

We absolutely could disband them today.

March Madness?? Another way for the NCAA to make bank on the backs of athletes that can't get fair market value for their labor.

Thanks for the (unintendo) pointing out another reason why the NCAA needs to go.

It would be easy to come up with another championship organization...one that didn't try to illegally regulate recruiting and athlete benefits for profit off of other people's labor.

There are things more important than a one year national championship. This is one of the bigger ones.

 

[butchna]

Wrong. It what people use when they are unable to debate factually and cogently.

"it what"? Your sentence structure is going to seed, using terms of which you have no concept.

 

[butchna]

Title IX has been used in various cases, usually at the lower levels, because the NCAA decided long ago to comply with civil rights laws.

But, of course, the colleges started offering more women's opportunities after Title IX laws surfaced. Currently, I think it's Oregon or Washington women's athletes are suing under Title IX because of unequal NIL opportunities.

If you're not aware Title IX changed college program s, you've really buried your head in the sand.

No…not the old stuff we’re all aware of. The new court ruling where they lay out the new order…all that rigmarole you were huffing about.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

We absolutely could disband them today.

March Madness?? Another way for the NCAA to make bank on the backs of athletes that can't get fair market value for their labor.

Thanks for the (unintendo) pointing out another reason why the NCAA needs to go.

It would be easy to come up with another championship organization...one that didn't try to illegally regulate recruiting and athlete benefits for profit off of other people's labor.

There are things more important than a one year national championship. This is one of the bigger ones.

Right now, for our basketball team, and those who follow them closely, there are FEW things that are more important in the short term than (a) SEC championship and (b) National championship.

And since you didn't answer, I'll do it for you: no. No, you could not run the NCAA tournament this year. You and 100 of your buddies (if you have 100) couldn't run it. It's far too big and complex for you. Don't feel bad, no one else could, either.

And that makes the NCAA a significant player in our #4 Volunteers basketball team's immediate goals.

Go Vols!

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

No…not the old stuff we’re all aware of. The new court ruling where they lay out the new order…all that rigmarole you were huffing about.

Your statement was:

NCAA HAS been failing dating way back. They’re not the universities they have been trying to control. Not sure you know exactly what you’re arguing. Universities own the STAGE. Business has to be conducted on their model. No court is going to force them to become something different.

I stated Title IX DID change "the STAGE" for college athletics.

The laws and court CAN change and ARE currently changing, mostly the Sherman Antitrust Act, how the schools run their programs.

As the NCAA gets weaker, the school's control over athletes transferring has eroded and not for the better. As the NCAA has lost NIL, the school's recruiting strategies have changed a lot. As for NCAA has weakened, the "Wild West" atmosphere has led to the SEC and B1G "exploring how best for them to proceed."

Of course all this is changing "the STAGE" college athletics is presented upon. By your own admission, the NCAA will fail, but some organization will HAVE to govern the interaction between the conferences and overall rules.

The STAGE is changing rapidly and not for the better whether the schools like it or not.

 

[butchna]

Your statement was:

I stated Title IX DID change "the STAGE" for college athletics.

The laws and court CAN change and ARE currently changing, mostly the Sherman Antitrust Act, how the schools run their programs.

As the NCAA gets weaker, the school's control over athletes transferring has eroded and not for the better. As the NCAA has lost NIL, the school's recruiting strategies have changed a lot. As for NCAA has weakened, the "Wild West" atmosphere has led to the SEC and B1G "exploring how best for them to proceed."

Of course all this is changing "the STAGE" college athletics is presented upon. By your own admission, the NCAA will fail, but some organization will HAVE to govern the interaction between the conferences and overall rules.

The STAGE is changing rapidly and not for the better whether the schools like it or not.

You're on your rant and can't register my point. The ACTUAL GAMES being played that generates the MONEY being quibbled over don't HAPPEN unless the universities give it the go ahead. THEIR stadiums, THEIR built in fanbase, THEIR marketing and brand, THEIR employees coaching and support staff down to the hot dog vendors and THEIR infrastructure! Everything that constitutes a game experience outside the talent on the field. Courts can't and won't force them to reclassify and run anything other than an academic institution. So for it to work and for everyone to profit, all the greedy lil hands are going to have to stay inside the car and go to class. Greasy union Mafia guys like a workforce that buy their act and do without during a protracted work stoppage. Kid making some serious coin for the first time in their lives doesn't miss a practice.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

You're on your rant and can't register my point. The ACTUAL GAMES being played that generates the MONEY being quibbled over don't HAPPEN unless the universities give it the go ahead. THEIR stadiums, THEIR built in fanbase, THEIR marketing and brand, THEIR employees coaching and support staff down to the hot dog vendors and THEIR infrastructure! Everything that constitutes a game experience outside the talent on the field. Courts can't and won't force them to reclassify and run anything other than an academic institution. So for it to work and for everyone to profit, all the greedy lil hands are going to have to stay inside the car and go to class. Greasy union Mafia guys like a workforce that buy their act and do without during a protracted work stoppage. Kid making some serious coin for the first time in their lives doesn't miss a practice.

It certainly seems you're ranting, not me.

The NLRB case at Dartmouth is pretty inconsequential though think about it: those schools don't offer scholarships but the players were still ruled employees. On the surface, that says the "student athlete" model isn't workable even without scholarship money. That's game changing if it holds and spreads, as it is doing in the USC case.

It doesn't matter WHO owns the facilities if the players are declared legally employees.

Sure, the colleges CAN refuse to treat players as employees even if the NLRB and later the courts determine they are, and again, Justice Kavanaugh directly compared them to employees in Alston and strongly hinted that's how the SCOTUS would rule if asked, but that will mean they either operate illegally and get sued by players OR they shut it down.

It WON'T mean the university itself changes from an academic institution but it WILL mean the athletic departments at the universities will need to comply with the law concerning players being employees.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

You're on your rant and can't register my point. The ACTUAL GAMES being played that generates the MONEY being quibbled over don't HAPPEN unless the universities give it the go ahead. THEIR stadiums, THEIR built in fanbase, THEIR marketing and brand, THEIR employees coaching and support staff down to the hot dog vendors and THEIR infrastructure! Everything that constitutes a game experience outside the talent on the field. Courts can't and won't force them to reclassify and run anything other than an academic institution. So for it to work and for everyone to profit, all the greedy lil hands are going to have to stay inside the car and go to class. Greasy union Mafia guys like a workforce that buy their act and do without during a protracted work stoppage. Kid making some serious coin for the first time in their lives doesn't miss a practice.

As for your Mafia insult of a likely players union affiliation, this is how the NFLPA looks. The NBAPA is similarly staffed by young people, definitely not "greasy Mafia types."

The smartest course for the college players is to align with these established sports unions, which aren't old school, traditional unions.

NFLPA Leadership

nflpa.com

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

I've been patient with you, but I'm done.

In case you haven't noticed, VA and TN are likely winning a case against the NCAA about regulating NIL. The NCAA has currently backed way, way, WAY off regulating what schools can do via NIL.

Just stop. The court cases show the NCAA is LOSING control of NIL, as they should because it isn't theirs to regulate, while you continue to look like a fool saying "they'll cap NIL at the school level." Just stop.

Show me the language that does anything but rule they cannot make the establishment of NIL deal illegal between players and payers before or after entry at a school and participate at an NCAA institution.

I see no protections for schools to coordinate such activities.

 

[butchna]

As for your Mafia insult of a likely players union affiliation, this is how the NFLPA looks. The NBAPA is similarly staffed by young people, definitely not "greasy Mafia types."

The smartest course for the college players is to align with these established sports unions, which aren't old school, traditional unions.

NFLPA Leadership

nflpa.com

AND have a longer work expectancy than 3-5 years. They want different things...money NOW vs money over a CAREER.

 

[butchna]

It certainly seems you're ranting, not me.

The NLRB case at Dartmouth is pretty inconsequential though think about it: those schools don't offer scholarships but the players were still ruled employees. On the surface, that says the "student athlete" model isn't workable even without scholarship money. That's game changing if it holds and spreads, as it is doing in the USC case.

It doesn't matter WHO owns the facilities if the players are declared legally employees.

Sure, the colleges CAN refuse to treat players as employees even if the NLRB and later the courts determine they are, and again, Justice Kavanaugh directly compared them to employees in Alston and strongly hinted that's how the SCOTUS would rule if asked, but that will mean they either operate illegally and get sued by players OR they shut it down.

It WON'T mean the university itself changes from an academic institution but it WILL mean the athletic departments at the universities will need to comply with the law concerning players being employees.

Dartmouth is a totally different situation than a big money program. They go on a work stoppage, you think Kansas players follow suit? Nothing to lose vs LOTS.

Course it matters! They don't have to HIRE them and without those facilities, their talent has no STAGE. The most gifted QB in the world might as well sell AMWAY if he's displaying their skill in a backyard game with his family as the only audience.

Justice Kavanaugh can call them unicorns and it doesn't matter unless there's a SHOW using their talent.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Show me the language that does anything but rule they cannot make the establishment of NIL deal illegal between players and payers before or after entry at a school and participate at an NCAA institution.

I see no protections for schools to coordinate such activities.

We've been through this repeatedly.

Schools can't establish a "NIL time" on players when they must sign. An NIL cap fails there immediately as the schools.... excuse me, the collectives..... just wait until the season starts and you're under the cap, then sign deals that end as the season ends. Rinse and repeat next year.

Besides that, WHY....... JUST ANSWER FOR ONCE...... why should the NCAA or other body have any right to regulate or cap NIL in any way for any school?

NIL isn't between the school and players so WHY should they or the NCAA or anyone outside of the IRS or state legal restrictions have control?

The UT Chancellor, Donde Plowman, made that argument very plain and very clear in her answer to the NCAA. If you'll note, the court seemed to agree and the NCAA backed away from regulation.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Right now, for our basketball team, and those who follow them closely, there are FEW things that are more important in the short term than (a) SEC championship and (b) National championship.

And since you didn't answer, I'll do it for you: no. No, you could not run the NCAA tournament this year. You and 100 of your buddies (if you have 100) couldn't run it. It's far too big and complex for you. Don't feel bad, no one else could, either.

And that makes the NCAA a significant player in our #4 Volunteers basketball team's immediate goals.

Go Vols!

You accidentally nailed it. The basketball thing is VERY short term. I'm the big picture, it's inconsequential compared to the implications of the NCAA's horribly illegal sports model.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

"it what"? Your sentence structure is going to seed, using terms of which you have no concept.

An inability to discern on your part is no one's problem but your own.

Back to Googling basic concepts for you...

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Dartmouth is a totally different situation than a big money program. They go on a work stoppage, you think Kansas players follow suit? Nothing to lose vs LOTS.

Course it matters! They don't have to HIRE them and without those facilities, their talent has no STAGE. The most gifted QB in the world might as well sell AMWAY if he's displaying their skill in a backyard game with his family as the only audience.

Justice Kavanaugh can call them unicorns and it doesn't matter unless there's a SHOW using their talent.

Of course, the schools aren't going to be competitive and aren't going to pay for good talent because they have no history of paying players to play.

If you think UT is going to fill Neyland with glorified intramural players AND the Mouse and the Fox are going to pay them $50M / year to watch glorified high school ball nationwide, certainly you can believe that.

UT is and has been and will be EXTREMELY aware of the need to field a team that's as talented as possible on their national STAGE.

They went after Nico, apparently using very risky and gray area recruiting techniques and ready to fight the NCAA about it even before the NCAA came at them, because they wanted his talent in Neyland.

It might be UT's STAGE but they are VERY aware that talent makes that STAGE worth $50M / year and they'll not give up that money by giving up that talent. They all have history in paying for talent to enhance their STAGE.

 

[Devo182]

Nope. If they become paid employees of the university, why would academics even factor into it?

Uhh rules?

That's the only reason they have to now...

 

[butchna]

Of course, the schools aren't going to be competitive and aren't going to pay for good talent because they have no history of paying players to play.

If you think UT is going to fill Neyland with glorified intramural players AND the Mouse and the Fox are going to pay them $50M / year to watch glorified high school ball nationwide, certainly you can believe that.

UT is and has been and will be EXTREMELY aware of the need to field a team that's as talented as possible on their national STAGE.

They went after Nico, apparently using very risky and gray area recruiting techniques and ready to fight the NCAA about it even before the NCAA came at them, because they wanted his talent in Neyland.

It might be UT's STAGE but they are VERY aware that talent makes that STAGE worth $50M / year and they'll not give up that money by giving up that talent. They all have history in paying for talent to enhance their STAGE.

Then it's in the best interest of greasy, oily Mafia union types to not slime their way into this situation, because UNIVERSITIES are not going to strongarmed out of the business of being a UNIVERSITY. Confident it won't remotely come close to that. As is, with the NCAA neutered, plenty of profit and happiness for everybody! Fox, the college, mom dad or both and of course the kid himself. Only people passed over are Vito, Vinnie and the doomsday bunker types preaching on the streets.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Then it's in the best interest of greasy, oily Mafia union types to not slime their way into this situation, because UNIVERSITIES are not going to strongarmed out of the business of being a UNIVERSITY. Confident it won't remotely come close to that. As is, with the NCAA neutered, plenty of profit and happiness for everybody! Fox, the college, mom dad or both and of course the kid himself. Only people passed over are Vito, Vinnie and the doomsday bunker types preaching on the streets.

I'll take that to mean you're done with an actual discussion.

You have stated that you don't care about the rule of law ("Kavanaugh can call them unicorns...") and that you ignore the history of schools paying players illegally to get talent to put on "their STAGE" which seems to matter so much and that any union will only be run by Mafia types, despite being shown the most likely union players would affiliate with is run by athletes.

Well played, sir.

 

[butchna]

I'll take that to mean you're done with an actual discussion.

You have stated that you don't care about the rule of law ("Kavanaugh can call them unicorns...") and that you ignore the history of schools paying players illegally to get talent to put on "their STAGE" which seems to matter so much and that any union will only be run by Mafia types, despite being shown the most likely union players would affiliate with is run by athletes.

Well played, sir.

We've not been conducting a "discussion". You're spouting your take and predicting udder doom and I've diagreed and counter-spouted. One of us may end up right or a totally different outcome happens.../science.

Eat it, Guido.

 

[VolDave53]

Then it's in the best interest of greasy, oily Mafia union types to not slime their way into this situation, because UNIVERSITIES are not going to strongarmed out of the business of being a UNIVERSITY. Confident it won't remotely come close to that. As is, with the NCAA neutered, plenty of profit and happiness for everybody! Fox, the college, mom dad or both and of course the kid himself. Only people passed over are Vito, Vinnie and the doomsday bunker types preaching on the streets.

I have enjoyed the banter back and forth on this thread. Most posters, including you, have some good points and some points based in a lack of proper interpretation of the current environment.

One thing stands out and that is your visceral hatred of Unions. Your characterization is based on the era of 1950 McCarthyism. Only in the US are Unions characterized as such. I have been a President of an international pilots' union. Professional progressions while preserving the viability of the Companies, enhancing safety and ensuring the compliance with numerous, seemingly conflicting, national rules were the standard, as is with most unions.

My family had bullets shot through the windows when I was a kid. UMW did that. . . thus, I am not ignorant of some of the earlier methods of contract negotiations. That was a long time ago. Times change.

 

[butchna]

I have enjoyed the banter back and forth on this thread. Most posters, including you, have some good points and some points based in a lack of proper interpretation of the current environment.

One thing stands out and that is your visceral hatred of Unions. Your characterization is based on the era of 1950 McCarthyism. Only in the US are Unions characterized as such. I have been a President of an international pilots' union. Professional progressions while preserving the viability of the Companies, enhancing safety and ensuring the compliance with numerous, seemingly conflicting, national rules were the standard, as is with most unions.

My family had bullets shot through the windows when I was a kid. UMW did that. . . thus, I am not ignorant of some of the earlier methods of contract negotiations. That was a long time ago. Times change.

Fair points but interpreted way too seriously imo. See the basic need for unions. Big industry doesn't part with livable wages and worker conditions of their volition and horror stories of professional sports leagues sticking it to the talent to the point of many needing to get second jobs as well as being sweated away with no free agency are etched in my knowledge. But no good thing is uncorruptable. The baseball union got cocky with their success and did their members a disservice imo not even contemplating a drug testing program. It’s naveau rich to blame the owners for greed looking the other way while juiced up records happened, but a defense could be easily made that they knew it was a no winner and accepted fate…until Congress stepped in. All that to get to the core of my dissent on unions, labor stoppages and the like glutting up a fine college product. There’s no benefit in allowing individuals whose sole purpose is wrangling gains into this arena. You have universities staging highly profitable competitions with an academic backdrop and more than amenable to allowing the athletes to profit at a reasonable level. It’s always the agitants who see a golden goose and think if you kick it that much harder it will crap out more gold…that’s fatal error. The average big time program’s charter eclipses an annual broadcast deal payout by a large margin. They won’t be browbeat into a transformation of the European lower level club teams. Their day job is education and they’re not going to pull up stakes in that business. And the courts aren’t going to force them to allow access to their campus venues. So it’s back to what benefits all. Colleges have a minimum for every player on the 85 and any of them can supplement as market allows. Too much money not to work.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

We've not been conducting a "discussion". You're spouting your take and predicting udder doom and I've diagreed and counter-spouted. One of us may end up right or a totally different outcome happens.../science.

Eat it, Guido.

I've said from the start, the slower this all goes south, the better. I wish the NCAA would sit in the corner and die quietly but they can't seem to do that. They keep poking at schools and trying to regulate things they can't and suggesting craziness like "let's let the schools pay NIL" which invites further legal challenges leading to employee status.

In this thread, word comes that UT might be gearing up to pay players directly. Again, let's just invite the "players are employees" lawsuits to the table.

My hope: slow down the changes from what we have, learn to cope with NIL, smack the NCAA until it keeps quiet and stops harassing schools, and squeeze a few more seasons out before the courts declare players employees.

I'll bet we mostly agree.