Tennessee preparing for the future with salaries for athletes.

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Sure it will. They have the stage. Who’s taking it away from them?

The courts are doing that.

 

[butchna]

The courts are doing that.

No they’re not. Which school have they restructured and replaced with a non-academic model. Which stadiums have they seized? Business as usual with students being able to profit for the 3-5 years they’re on CAMPUS.

 

[butchna]

The universities aren't going to **** down their athletic departments and close their stadiums and arenas if they have to start paying players.

There's too much money involved. The schools know that half a loaf is better than none at all.

They keep their loaf and the NCAA doesn’t micromanage the other half loaf.

 

[butchna]

Compensation that has been compared by the Supreme Court to paid professions and the quote is "The NCAA is not above the law."

So, with the NCAA business on the verge of being declared a professional athletic league, here's an idea: let's start paying the players directly from the school because that will let the court know we aren't running a pro sports league, right?

It's the worst possible idea and only speeds the courts to rule the teams ARE pro teams, the schools DON'T compensate the players at market value, and the NCAA and schools are in violation of Antitrust Law by not letting the players negotiate compensation.

Yes, Alston was ONLY about limiting academic compensation but after that ruling "magically" the NCAA starting allowing NIL compensation rather than fight Antitrust lawsuits.

The transfer case from James Madison was only about playing after a second transfer without sitting out, but after that "stay" of the transfer rules, the NCAA has "magically" suspended enforcing any transfer rules rather than fight Antitrust lawsuits.

With the handwriting on the wall that "student athlete" model violates Antitrust Law, the schools are thinking about INVITING an Antitrust lawsuit by starting to compensate players and NOT letting them collective bargain/unionize like...uh..... employees.

NCAA…not the universities. The schools aren’t launching investigations and instituting limits on what students can receive…keep it straight.

There’s no “letting”. Kids aren’t going to be skipping paychecks and paying union dues for a week…much less months involved in a labor dispute. Schools will negotiate with arbitrators for a base minimum per 85 scholarship athlete and keep their mitts off of what they generate for themselves.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

NCAA…not the universities. The schools aren’t launching investigations and instituting limits on what students can receive…keep it straight.

There’s no “letting”. Kids aren’t going to be skipping paychecks and paying union dues for a week…much less months involved in a labor dispute. Schools will negotiate with arbitrators for a base minimum per 85 scholarship athlete and keep their mitts off of what they generate for themselves.

The NCAA just represents the model, the student athlete model you're insisting the courts won't touch, which Kavanaugh specifically said is a violation of Antitrust.

"Schools will negotiate with arbitrators" ONLY if the students are collective bargaining, like employees. Who picks the negotiator for the students if they're not organized? Who and how are they paid? It's called a union.

You're asking for the players to negotiate via arbitration without being unionized? Uh......

 

[butchna]

The NCAA just represents the model, the student athlete model you're insisting the courts won't touch, which Kavanaugh specifically said is a violation of Antitrust.

"Schools will negotiate with arbitrators" ONLY if the students are collective bargaining, like employees. Who picks the negotiator for the students if they're not organized? Who and how are they paid? It's called a union.

You're asking for the players to negotiate via arbitration without being unionized? Uh......

The NCAA was the enforcement arm of the old system…nowhere close to the business MODEL. Individual universities are individual employers and to be EMPLOYED you need to be a student in good standing. Otherwise you don’t have access to their stage. Money is being used to maintain said stage. No student staying at max 3-5 years on CAMPUS is going to become a partner. Not even Stephen Hawking could wrangle such a deal…how many mega millions or hundreds of millions did he generate for academia over half a century of association?

Kids take found money right out of high school and don’t want to share it with oily, union mafia types in the short time frame they’re in college. Been that long since you weren’t middle age?

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

No they’re not. Which school have they restructured and replaced with a non-academic model. Which stadiums have they seized? Business as usual with students being able to profit for the 3-5 years they’re on CAMPUS.

Strawman argument, much? I said "they are doing". Your reply was non responsive to what was actually said. There's a difference in the current tense (my statement) and the past tense. (Your response).

 

[butchna]

Strawman argument, much? I said "they are doing. Your reply was non responsive to what was actually said. There's a difference in the current tense (my statement) and the past tense. (Your response).

You’re going in a nonsensical circle…taxing the limits of your online thesaurus.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Courts can’t (and won’t) force an academic institution to conduct a defacto sandlot league. What they’ll rule on is their rights as far as compensation. If you qualify as a student? You can be compensated. Don’t like those conditions? Go to Canada or play arena league.

The courts "can't??? Sure they can, short of an antitrust exemption, which they are exceedingly unlikely to get.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

The NCAA was the enforcement arm of the old system…nowhere close to the business MODEL. Individual universities are individual employers and to be EMPLOYED you need to be a student in good standing. Otherwise you don’t have access to their stage. Money is being used to maintain said stage. No student staying at max 3-5 years on CAMPUS is going to become a partner. Not even Stephen Hawking could wrangle such a deal…how many mega millions or hundreds of millions did he generate for academia over half a century of association?

Kids take found money right out of high school and don’t want to share it with oily, union mafia types in the short time frame they’re in college. Been that long since you weren’t middle age?

The NCAA didn't want to share football revenue and the courts made them. The NCAA didn't want let go of NIL restrictions, the courts were going to make them. The NCAA didn't want to let go of transfer restrictions, the courts essentially made them. The NCAA didn't want to let go of most NIL negotiating rules, the courts will likely make them.

But when Justice Kavanaugh says the "student athlete" system of not compensating players at market value is a violation of Antitrust, it's not going to happen? Hehehehe, of course it IS going to happen. Delaying it is the only hope of college athletics continuing as non-pro sports.

If you think the schools are going to somehow form a different "student athlete" model organization that doesn't compensate athletes at market value, you're wrong. Any NCAA style organization will be sued right out of existence, if it's even allowed to exist, because it violates Antitrust Law. Congress is the Hail Mary that could give them some protection but Congress is as inept as the NCAA.

Any model that DOES compensate them at market value will be a pro model. It will involve collective bargaining, it will have salary caps, it will control transfers/free agency, it will involve arbitration, as you say, because the players will be organized, paying dues, and funding negotiators.

You ignore how arbitrators will be paid. The above is how.

 

[butchna]

The courts "can't??? Sure they can, short of an antitrust exemption, which they are exceedingly unlikely to get.

You’re getting the NCAA and UNIVERSITIES mixed up. They’re not one and the same.

 

[butchna]

The NCAA didn't want to share football revenue and the courts made them. The NCAA didn't want let go of NIL restrictions, the courts were going to make them. The NCAA didn't want to let go of transfer restrictions, the courts essentially made them. The NCAA didn't want to let go of most NIL negotiating rules, the courts will likely make them.

But when Justice Kavanaugh says the "student athlete" system of not compensating players at market value is a violation of Antitrust, it's not going to happen? Hehehehe, of course it IS going to happen. Delaying it is the only hope of college athletics continuing as non-pro sports.

If you think the schools are going to somehow form a different "student athlete" model organization that doesn't compensate athletes at market value, you're wrong. Any NCAA style organization will be sued right out of existence, if it's even allowed to exist, because it violates Antitrust Law. Congress is the Hail Mary that could give them some protection but Congress is as inept as the NCAA.

Any model that DOES compensate them at market value will be a pro model. It will involve collective bargaining, it will have salary caps, it will control transfers/free agency, it will involve arbitration, as you say, because the players will be organized, paying dues, and funding negotiators.

You ignore how arbitrators will be paid. The above is how.

NCAA vs universities. One is an ASSOCIATION designed to regulate MEMBER INSTITUTIONS. The other IS said institutions. There’s never been a court that seized an institute of higher learning and forced it to incorporate as a business…because that’s beyond their scope.

 

[VolDave53]

Oh really? Do other UT employees have to attend classes?

It depends for which specifications their contract demands. One is not mutually exclusive of the other.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

You’re getting the NCAA and UNIVERSITIES mixed up. They’re not one and the same.

No, I'm not. What entities do you think make up the NCAA?

When (not if) the athletes are deemed employees, the NCAA model is done. It's already in the way out.

The universities will then have two options.

1. Pay the athletes fair market value as employees and completely independent of NIO money.

2. Stop their athletic programs.

Football in particular makes too much money for the P4 schools to cancel it based on making slightly less money from it.

I'd also suggest that you re-read the title of this topic. UT is anticipating that athletes will become paid employees. The fund is preparing for that. When they happens, if pay us close to equal, what football program is going to get the best athletes? The one that makes football athletes go to class or the ones they don't?

The schools don't make the coaches, analysts, trainers, and other sport employees go to class. That establishes the paradigm for paid athletes to follow the same model.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

NCAA vs universities. One is an ASSOCIATION designed to regulate MEMBER INSTITUTIONS. The other IS said institutions. There’s never been a court that seized an institute of higher learning and forced it to incorporate as a business…because that’s beyond their scope.

You seem to just want to ignore SOME organization will have to oversee "the organization currently known as NCAA athletics" and the reason why the NCAA is being sued is because it sets the rules for all the schools.

SOME organization will have to ride herd over the conferences and teams. If that's not obvious to you, think about it.

Assuming the NCAA survives, it WILL be sued for Antitrust until the court declares its entire organization, meaning the schools it regulates, are violating Antitrust Law and must stop.

You can only be obtuse so long, but the bottom line is: the NCAA is in violation of Antitrust Law not only with NIL and transfers but also in the rules keeping schools from paying players AND paying those players market value.

When that ruling comes, the schools will start having to pay employees at market value, meaning they're pro players. At that point, it all falls apart.

The suggestion that the schools voluntarily start compensating players only invites "they're not compensating us at market value" lawsuits, which Justice Kavanaugh said will be lost by the NCAA.

If you want it to burn down faster, start paying players directly from the schools.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

It depends for which specifications their contract demands. One is not mutually exclusive of the other.

It's not, but asking a person employed as an athlete to take courses having nothing to do with being an athlete ON THEIR OWN TIME is quite the stretch.

I can see employing someone in the IT dept and expecting them to work to get better trained in their field, but could you reasonably force them to get a degree in biology?

 

[butchna]

You seem to just want to ignore SOME organization will have to oversee "the organization currently known as NCAA athletics" and the reason why the NCAA is being sued is because it sets the rules for all the schools.

SOME organization will have to ride herd over the conferences and teams. If that's not obvious to you, think about it.

Assuming the NCAA survives, it WILL be sued for Antitrust until the court declares its entire organization, meaning the schools it regulates, are violating Antitrust Law and must stop.

You can only be obtuse so long, but the bottom line is: the NCAA is in violation of Antitrust Law not only with NIL and transfers but also in the rules keeping schools from paying players AND paying those players market value.

When that ruling comes, the schools will start having to pay employees at market value, meaning they're pro players. At that point, it all falls apart.

The suggestion that the schools voluntarily start compensating players only invites "they're not compensating us at market value" lawsuits, which Justice Kavanaugh said will be lost by the NCAA.

If you want it to burn down faster, start paying players directly from the schools.

But that ORGANIZATION wouldn’t be replacing universities and operating them as a business. That’s each individual university. The states of Tennessee and Virginia did not go to court seeking an injunction against UT and UVA. No, it was against the organization going after those schools. So how would ruling against the NCAA be ruling against the schools seeking legal relief?

They’ll be fine. It’s a good business model. Errybody getting money and getting happy. No pyromania required.

 

[butchna]

No, I'm not. What entities do you think make up the NCAA?

When (not if) the athletes are deemed employees, the NCAA model is done. It's already in the way out.

The universities will then have two options.

1. Pay the athletes fair market value as employees and completely independent of NIO money.

2. Stop their athletic programs.

Football in particular makes too much money for the P4 schools to cancel it based on making slightly less money from it.

I'd also suggest that you re-read the title of this topic. UT is anticipating that athletes will become paid employees. The fund is preparing for that. When they happens, if pay us close to equal, what football program is going to get the best athletes? The one that makes football athletes go to class or the ones they don't?

The schools don't make the coaches, analysts, trainers, and other sport employees go to class. That establishes the paradigm for paid athletes to follow the same model.

So Tennessee was investigating itself and most likely seeking to suspend a player its collective heavily pursued? When Baker refused to meet with Plowman, he was in essence refusing to meet with HIMSELF.

Sound it out better. One’s an organization self appointing itself to reign in programs it deems as too ambitious. The other is SAID program. Not the same!

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

But that ORGANIZATION wouldn’t be replacing universities and operating them as a business. That’s each individual university. The states of Tennessee and Virginia did not go to court seeking an injunction against UT and UVA. No, it was against the organization going after those schools. So how would ruling against the NCAA be ruling against the schools seeking legal relief?

They’ll be fine. It’s a good business model. Errybody getting money and getting happy. No pyromania required.

You still don't address that the organization practices, the rules it makes for the schools, are being declared violations of Antitrust and the organization is abandoning those rules.

So, when the rule against paying players market value is declared an Antitrust Violation, the schools will need to start paying players market value or risk their own lawsuits, which they'll lose also.

At that point, you have pro football. Athletes playing ball, being paid, and STILL you need an organization to ride herd, enforce a salary cap, control free agency, etc, etc.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

So Tennessee was investigating itself and most likely seeking to suspend a player its collective heavily pursued? When Baker refused to meet with Plowman, he was in essence refusing to meet with HIMSELF.

Sound it out better. One’s an organization self appointing itself to reign in programs it deems as too ambitious. The other is SAID program. Not the same!

That's incoherent. Please do some basic research about the NCAA being a membership organization made up of its member schools.

 

[EastTNVol6240]

Have they ever TRULY been anyway? The majority of these kids are banking on the NFL

The % of student athletes that make it to the league says otherwise.

 

[butchna]

You still don't address that the organization practices, the rules it makes for the schools, are being declared violations of Antitrust and the organization is abandoning those rules.

So, when the rule against paying players market value is declared an Antitrust Violation, the schools will need to start paying players market value or risk their own lawsuits, which they'll lose also.

At that point, you have pro football. Athletes playing ball, being paid, and STILL you need an organization to ride herd, enforce a salary cap, control free agency, etc, etc.

That’s not going to happen…etc. etc. etc The NCAA “riding herd” is finished. Conferences will self-regulate with a basic set of manageable rules. The Supreme Court doesn’t descend from the heavens and unilaterally declare this is against anti-trust rules and that isn’t. There has to be cases presented to them for interpretation…and what exactly is on the docket? Kids right out of high school will take the money available and move on after 3-5 years. Free market! Has worked for centuries.

 

[butchna]

That's incoherent. Please do some basic research about the NCAA being a membership organization made up of its never schools.

What’s a “never school”? Sounds made up. The NCAA was created out of necessity back in the days of the flying wedge with a push from Teddy Roosevelt. Original intent was basic rules to cut down on DEATHS on the field. They grabbed the reins and Kennesaw Mountain Landis’d it to micromanage every speck of a student athlete’s life and they ran it into the ground. That’s where we’re at. Highly profitable game that universities participate in with their stages and profit. Now student athletes can profit on their own work effort and if they’re proficient enough advance to the professional level. Now the big conferences will set up a manageable infrastructure to regulate and what remains of the NCAA will nibble away at the smaller schools. Too much money involved to fail.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

What’s a “never school”? Sounds made up. The NCAA was created out of necessity back in the days of the flying wedge with a push from Teddy Roosevelt. Original intent was basic rules to cut down on DEATHS on the field. They grabbed the reins and Kennesaw Mountain Landis’d it to micromanage every speck of a student athlete’s life and they ran it into the ground. That’s where we’re at. Highly profitable game that universities participate in with their stages and profit. Now student athletes can profit on their own work effort and if they’re proficient enough advance to the professional level. Now the big conferences will set up a manageable infrastructure to regulate and what remains of the NCAA will nibble away at the smaller schools. Too much money involved to fail.

The NCAA is as obsolete as the horse-drawn buggy. What anyone claims their original intent was is irrelevant.

 

[butchna]

The NCAA is as obsolete as the horse-drawn buggy. What anyone claims their original intent was is irrelevant.

It's part of the conversation as long as you insist it's the same entity as member schools. Tails wagging dogs and dogs being rescued analogy.