Tennessee - Sleeper for 2013 tournament

#27
#27
MannyD said:
"But the 6-7 Maymon is a reliable scorer in the paint, and in particular, I expect that he and Stokes will be able to crash the offensive glass, if Martin will let them."

Can someone tell me what that last part is supposed to mean? Is Cuonzo going to forbid offensive rebounding? Not sure what this guy was going for here.
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A lot of coaches tell their bigs to hustle back and not crash the boards on offense. I don't think CCM is that way at all though. Jeronne and jarnell both averaged around 3 offensive rebounds a piece last year which is solid, I'd expect that number to rise though.
 
#28
#28
We averaged 54 fg attempts a game last year, if we cut turnovers from 14 to 10, and play a little faster then were looking at probably 60 fg attempt a game. If that's the case Id like to see them distributed like so...

Maymon: 12
Stokes: 12
Jordan: 10
D'montre: 6
Josh: 5
Trae: 6
Skylar: 3
Kenny: 3
Yemi: 3
 
#29
#29
bleedingTNorange said:
This is true, but I feel jordy needs to shoot jmo though on that. Hes a 2 or 3, and I feel he has true ability to average 12-15 a night so I'm ok with his fg attempts being somewhere around 10-12 a night. I feel he may actually have the ability to be the best scorer on this team. As I said though, Edwards could take shots from him so well see but I'm ok with his fg attempts as long as they're in the offense and after a post got a look.

The turnovers are definitely a big key for next year as well. Although I'm not sure where you're getting 23, we averaged 14 turnovers a game. 10 or 11 is the goal so that's 3 or for more fg attempts a game.

Trae definitely can score and is good at it, but I don't want it to be his go to this year. I think well be much better if he becomes better at picking and choosing his spots and not trying to score as much. I think trying to score so much really gases him and probably hurt his handles and defense towards the ends of games last year. I'd much rather see a stat line of:
10pts 6ast 4rb 2to 2stl 3-6 fg 1-2 3pt 3-4ft
Than
14pts 4ast 3rb 3to 4-10fg 2-5 3pg 4-5ft

I'd like to see him distribute first, instead of thinking score first. If he can do that I think everyone around him becomes better and as a team we are better.
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I misread OP when it said turned it over 23 percent of possessions. I skimmed it and just took away the 23.

As for Trae's stat line. It's an awful lot to ask a guy to average 10 points on 5 or 6 attempts a game.
 
#30
#30
bleedingTNorange said:
A lot of coaches tell their bigs to hustle back and not crash the boards on offense. I don't think CCM is that way at all though. Jeronne and jarnell both averaged around 3 offensive rebounds a piece last year which is solid, I'd expect that number to rise though.
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I'm not sure any coach tells their bigs not to rebound. Just the opposite.
 
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#31
#31
zansdad said:
I misread OP when it said turned it over 23 percent of possessions. I skimmed it and just took away the 23.

As for Trae's stat line. It's an awful lot to ask a guy to average 10 points on 5 or 6 attempts a game.
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Not when you figure he gets to the line on average around 4-5 times a game. 2-5 from the field is 4-6 points and add in the 4-5 ft and that's the 10 point average I said.
 
#32
#32
zansdad said:
I'm not sure any coach tells their bigs not to rebound. Just the opposite.
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I have absolutely heard of coaches to tell their bigs not to crash the offensive glass. I didn't say not to rebound at all, but just the offensive glass. Teams that stress getting back on D the coaches will tell their bigs not to crash the offensive glass.
 
#33
#33
bleedingTNorange said:
Not when you figure he gets to the line on average around 4-5 times a game. 2-5 from the field is 4-6 points and add in the 4-5 ft and that's the 10 point average I said.
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Averaging 10 points on 5 shots would be incredible. People actually track points/fga and anything around 1.5 is great. Expecting someone to average around 1.8 - 2.0 is a bit unrealistic.
 
#34
#34
bleedingTNorange said:
I have absolutely heard of coaches to tell their bigs not to crash the offensive glass. I didn't say not to rebound at all, but just the offensive glass. Teams that stress getting back on D the coaches will tell their bigs not to crash the offensive glass.
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Well I can't imagine those coaches win a lot of games. Offensive rebounding is essential to winning basketball.
 
#35
#35
zansdad said:
Averaging 10 points on 5 shots would be incredible. People actually track points/fga and anything around 1.5 is great. Expecting someone to average around 1.8 - 2.0 is a bit unrealistic.
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Just looking real quick Aaron Craft averages 9ppg on 6 shots, and the rest of his numbers are basically what I put as traes stat line. The biggest thing with trae though is he gets to that line a lot which will give him more points. Hell at the end of close games he usually tacks on 3 or 4, sometimes more, points from the free throw line.

I used 5 as a ballpark number, if it'd make it better we can say 10ppg on 6 shots though. In fact, on my "shot breakdown" per game I actually said trae getting 6 shots. That makes it 1.6 which falls right in line with what you say is good.
 
#36
#36
zansdad said:
Well I can't imagine those coaches win a lot of games. Offensive rebounding is essential to winning basketball.
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Most of them are your very defensive minded coaches...
Tony Bennett...UVA
Kevin Oneil.....USC
John Beilein....UM

all 3 of those teams were some of the lowest ORBD teams, and that's not by accident.
 
#37
#37
bleedingTNorange said:
Most of them are your very defensive minded coaches...
Tony Bennett...UVA
Kevin Oneil.....USC
John Beilein....UM

all 3 of those teams were some of the lowest ORBD teams, and that's not by accident.
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It may just be coincidence, but one of those teams won 6 or so games this year, one was beaten by a 13 seed, and one was beaten by 25 points.
 
#38
#38
cncchris33 said:
It may just be coincidence, but one of those teams won 6 or so games this year, one was beaten by a 13 seed, and one was beaten by 25 points.
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Very true, but 2/3 did something this year Tennessee didn't.( I understand they were in much better position than UT)

Beilein is considered by many though one of the most underrated coaches in the country.

I'm not suggesting this is the way to go, I'm just answering the OP's question. Some coaches do tell their bigs not to crash the offensive glass as aggressively as others do. However, from what I've seen so far I don't expect that to be the case here at Tennessee under CCM.
 
#39
#39
bleedingTNorange said:
Just looking real quick Aaron Craft averages 9ppg on 6 shots, and the rest of his numbers are basically what I put as traes stat line. The biggest thing with trae though is he gets to that line a lot which will give him more points. Hell at the end of close games he usually tacks on 3 or 4, sometimes more, points from the free throw line.

I used 5 as a ballpark number, if it'd make it better we can say 10ppg on 6 shots though. In fact, on my "shot breakdown" per game I actually said trae getting 6 shots. That makes it 1.6 which falls right in line with what you say is good.
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Craft scored 345 points on 230 shots Aaron Craft Stats, News, Videos, Highlights, Pictures, Bio - Ohio State Buckeyes - ESPN . That is 1.5 points per FGA. And Craft is considered one of the best college PGs. Golden had 462 points on 321 shots Trae Golden Stats, News, Videos, Highlights, Pictures, Bio - Tennessee Volunteers - ESPN . That comes out to 1.44 PTA/FGA. To ask Gooden to average 6 shots a game and 10 points is 1.67 points per FGA. That's unfair. If his shots go down his points will have to as well.
 
#40
#40
zansdad said:
Craft scored 345 points on 230 shots Aaron Craft Stats, News, Videos, Highlights, Pictures, Bio - Ohio State Buckeyes - ESPN . That is 1.5 points per FGA. And Craft is considered one of the best college PGs. Golden had 462 points on 321 shots Trae Golden Stats, News, Videos, Highlights, Pictures, Bio - Tennessee Volunteers - ESPN . That comes out to 1.44 PTA/FGA. To ask Gooden to average 6 shots a game and 10 points is 1.67 points per FGA. That's unfair. If his shots go down his points will have to as well.
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I disagree with your last sentence. How many times did golden take a shot that was an ill-advised low percentage shot? I'm gonna put that number at 2-3 a game.
I'm not asking him to average 14ppg like he did last year, but if he averaged 13.6 ppg on 9.4fga that's a 1.45 ratio. Multiply 1.45 x 6 shots(my suggestion he take) And you get 8.69ppg.

Common sense would suggest the better quality shots you take the better your fg%. Therefore if Goldens taking 10 shots now but 2-3 are bad, if he were to take 5-6 GOOD shots a game his fg% should increase some. If his fg% increases then so does his points/fga.
 
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#42
#42
As I've said I don't think this stat line is something insane..

10pts 6ast 4rbd 2to 3-6fg 1-3 3pt 3-4ft

That's my hope for Trae next year, and possibly a few more shots/game if they're GOOD shots.

Are my expectations really that unrealistic?

We're looking hopefully at 58-60 fg attempts a game this is my hope for distribution...Maymon: 12, Stokes: 12, Jordan: 8, D'montre: 6, Josh: 5, Trae: 6, Skylar: 3, Kenny: 3, Yemi 3.


What would be your ideal Zans?
 
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#43
#43
bleedingTNorange said:
I disagree with your last sentence. How many times did golden take a shot that was an ill-advised low percentage shot? I'm gonna put that number at 2-3 a game.
I'm not asking him to average 14ppg like he did last year, but if he averaged 13.6 ppg on 9.4fga that's a 1.45 ratio. Multiply 1.45 x 6 shots(my suggestion he take) And you get 8.69ppg.

Common sense would suggest the better quality shots you take the better your fg%. Therefore if Goldens taking 10 shots now but 2-3 are bad, if he were to take 5-6 GOOD shots a game his fg% should increase some. If his fg% increases then so does his points/fga.
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Shots are shots. If you ask Golden to take less shots, he is going to take less good ones too. Many of Golden's 'bad' shots were fouls that weren't called. That's going to happen with a guy that likes to penetrate and score.
 
#44
#44
bleedingTNorange said:
Zans can you post a link to where the rankings for PTs/fga are located, I'd be very curious to see it.
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I can't find it broken down anywhere. I tried just doing it for Tennesse's players but my computer skills let me down trying to post it. Maymon has the highest on the team if that is any surprise. McRae and Richardson are two of the lowest of the guys that got quality minutes. I will keep looking and see if I can find a site that actually tracks it. I think Kenpom does but it is behind the paywall.
 
#45
#45
zansdad said:
Shots are shots. If you ask Golden to take less shots, he is going to take less good ones too. Many of Golden's 'bad' shots were fouls that weren't called. That's going to happen with a guy that likes to penetrate and score.
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I disagree completely, but I guess well have to settle on that. Asking golden not to take quick 3's or over penetrate and fling up shots shouldn't result in less good shots, I totally disagree.

Thats part of his learning process IMO, learning as a PG what is and isn't a good shot. His fg% definitely has room for improvement that can't be argued, so either his shooting needs to improve or decision of shots needs to. I think it's the latter, but we can agree to disagree.
 
#46
#46
zansdad said:
I can't find it broken down anywhere. I tried just doing it for Tennesse's players but my computer skills let me down trying to post it. Maymon has the highest on the team if that is any surprise. McRae and Richardson are two of the lowest of the guys that got quality minutes. I will keep looking and see if I can find a site that actually tracks it. I think Kenpom does but it is behind the paywall.
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Yea I looked for Tennessee as well and actually figured maymon would be highest, and he was. You have to figure it'll be high fg% along with quite a few points at the ft line.
 
#47
#47
bleedingTNorange said:
As I've said I don't think this stat line is something insane..

10pts 6ast 4rbd 2to 3-6fg 1-3 3pt 3-4ft

That's my hope for Trae next year, and possibly a few more shots/game if they're GOOD shots.

Are my expectations really that unrealistic?

We're looking hopefully at 58-60 fg attempts a game this is my hope for distribution...Maymon: 12, Stokes: 12, Jordan: 8, D'montre: 6, Josh: 5, Trae: 6, Skylar: 3, Kenny: 3, Yemi 3.


What would be your ideal Zans?
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First- yes you are being unrealistic. No player is going to score 10 points per game on 6 shots. And if they do you want them taking way more shots not less. 1.67 pt/fga is incredibly high (even Maymon was only 1.56) and you want that guy taking most of your shots.

Second- I don't know that you can break it down like that. It's like saying you want specific guys to average specific number of points per game. I think this team is much better when they play inside out. However, that doesn't mean that just because it goes into the post it has to be a shot. That was part of Stokes' problem last year. If he touched it he felt he needed to shoot it.

I cannot tell you more than I would like to see Maymon and/or Stokes touch the ball on every possession if possible. Of those that played major minutes, they are two of the 3 highest pts/fga (Golden is 2nd) and they are the 3 that I feel need to be getting the most shots and by a large margin.

No way does Jordan McRae need 8 shots a game (although stats show he will take them anyway). He actually scores at a lower clip than McBee when you look at points/FGA. I am not sure how you can suggest Golden needs to take less/better shots and argue McRae needs more. McRae's shot selection is horrible.

Also, Kenny's pts/fga is close to Stokes'.
 
#48
#48
Craft is 1.5 so if golden goes 1.5 and takes 6 shots that's 9ppg, pretty close to the 10 I was mentioning. Are you saying craft should shoot more?

And I know you can't set a number and say this is how many you get but I'm goin off averages throughout the year. So some games yea they may get more and others less, but that's the average I'd like to see. I broke it down earlier, our guards took like 60 something % of shots lay year, and when you have maymon and stokes that should be flip flopped IMO.

And actually I'm suggesting McRae take less shots. I'm going by my assumption mcraes minutes are going to increase, so if he's taking 8 shots in 21 minutes now, I'm suggesting 8 shots in around 28-30 minutes.

I get what you're saying though about trae and Jordan. It goes back to my first statement though with craft. He has the highest pts/fga on the whole team, but takes the 4th most shots on the team. Why, because he's looking to distribute first. That's what I want from trae to look to distribute first and score second, but that's jmo.

IMO if trae spent less energy on trying to score and carry the team by shooting at some points that he wouldn't get sl fatigued. I believe this would improve his ball handling, defense and decision making especially in late game situations where he struggled this year.
 
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#49
#49
If you're waning golden to shoot more, I'm not saying no, we should just move him to the 2 though.

If Stanton is good enough, play him at PG an let trae slide to the 2 an shoot 12 times a game. I just think its taxing on golden to shoot that much and handle all the pg duties, while playing 32mpg.
 
#50
#50
bleedingTNorange said:
If you're waning golden to shoot more, I'm not saying no, we should just move him to the 2 though.

If Stanton is good enough, play him at PG an let trae slide to the 2 an shoot 12 times a game. I just think its taxing on golden to shoot that much and handle all the pg duties, while playing 32mpg.
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Offensively yes Golden would be a good choice at the 2 but he can't guard his position. He is listed at 6'1". He's too short to guard other SG and not athletic enough to make up for it. He is the PG and we just have to get used to him playing PG and being one of the top 3 scorers.
 
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