Tennessee - Sleeper for 2013 tournament

[zansdad]

Craft is 1.5 so if golden goes 1.5 and takes 6 shots that's 9ppg, pretty close to the 10 I was mentioning. Are you saying craft should shoot more?

And I know you can't set a number and say this is how many you get but I'm goin off averages throughout the year. So some games yea they may get more and others less, but that's the average I'd like to see. I broke it down earlier, our guards took like 60 something % of shots lay year, and when you have maymon and stokes that should be flip flopped IMO.

And actually I'm suggesting McRae take less shots. I'm going by my assumption mcraes minutes are going to increase, so if he's taking 8 shots in 21 minutes now, I'm suggesting 8 shots in around 28-30 minutes.

I get what you're saying though about trae and Jordan. It goes back to my first statement though with craft. He has the highest pts/fga on the whole team, but takes the 4th most shots on the team. Why, because he's looking to distribute first. That's what I want from trae to look to distribute first and score second, but that's jmo.

IMO if trae spent less energy on trying to score and carry the team by shooting at some points that he wouldn't get sl fatigued. I believe this would improve his ball handling, defense and decision making especially in late game situations where he struggled this year.

I would argue Craft has more weapons around him but yes, he should shoot more.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Offensively yes Golden would be a good choice at the 2 but he can't guard his position. He is listed at 6'1". He's too short to guard other SG and not athletic enough to make up for it. He is the PG and we just have to get used to him playing PG and being one of the top 3 scorers.

I'm fine with him being our PG, I just worry if he tries to score as much as last year hell be pretty much the same as last year(which isn't that bad). I just worry that he'll get fatigued again trying to do too much, and also that our bigs won't get the touches they need. I'd like to see trae become a pass first PG, not a shoot first PG which is what he was last year.

If Moore or Richardson prove to be adequate backups, or if golden gets kemba walker endurance then ok. I just worry trying to score as much as last year hurts him on defense an fatigues him at the end of games.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I would argue Craft has more weapons around him but yes, he should shoot more.

Yes craft probably does but I'd also argue golden is the 3rd maybe even 4th best scorer on the team. So why should he take the most shots? Same is said for craft, he's probably the 4th or 5th bet scorer why take more shots? He takes good shots, and distributes to the better scorers. Common sense says that's if he shot more that % goes down, he shoots so well because he takes smart shots.

Craft is exactly the type I'm referring to. He takes 6 shots a game, and they are all usually GOOD shots, that's why he shoots 50%. If Golden would take 6 GOOD shots he'd also be around that %, and actually shoots a better 3pt % than craft. That's why I say, the decision making of what shot is key IMO for golden. Craft isn't the best scorer, but he takes good smart shots and as a result hits them at a 50% clip.

I think where we differ is what kind of PG we want golden to be, I prefer the pass first and you prefer the score first.

I like a line of: 10pts 3-6fg 1-3 3pt 3-4 ft 6ast 2to 4rbd

Over

14pts 4-10fg 2-5 3pt 4-5ft 4ast 3to 3rbd

Now hey if he can combine both and have the endurance I'm all for a:
14pts 4-9fg 2-5 3pt 4-5ft 6ast 2to 4rbd

And still have the gas at the end of the game then heck yea, that's all-American caliber. I just don't know if both are possible I guess, I feel it's either score more at the expense of ball handling or focus more on ball handling and less scoring. If he can find out how to do both though, learn how to distribute more and take care of the ball, while also scoring then watch out. I just worry because he had trouble late in games with fatigue last year.

 

[Heebs]

Just looking real quick Aaron Craft averages 9ppg on 6 shots, and the rest of his numbers are basically what I put as traes stat line. The biggest thing with trae though is he gets to that line a lot which will give him more points. Hell at the end of close games he usually tacks on 3 or 4, sometimes more, points from the free throw line.

I used 5 as a ballpark number, if it'd make it better we can say 10ppg on 6 shots though. In fact, on my "shot breakdown" per game I actually said trae getting 6 shots. That makes it 1.6 which falls right in line with what you say is good.

Trae is 1000% better offensively than Craft.

 

[Heebs]

I think Trae is fine getting 10 shots per game because he can very easily get 17-20 points in any given game. I don't want him to cut Down on his shots, he just needs to take care of the ball better and play better D at the end of games.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Trae is 1000% better offensively than Craft.

Which is my point. If Aaron can shoot 50%, play great d, dish out assists, and take are of the ball trae should be able to as well AND even be a more efficient scorer.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I think Trae is fine getting 10 shots per game because he can very easily get 17-20 points in any given game. I don't want him to cut Down on his shots, he just needs to take care of the ball better and play better D at the end of games.

That's my worry. Last year trae took 10 shots and tried to score a lot, and it negatively effected his ball handling and really fatigued him on D at the end. I don't want that to happen again, so....the only solutions I have are A. Don't try to score so much and be more of a distributor or B. get yourself in MUCH better shape to where you can pull kemba type minutes and still be as effective with 1 minute remaining as you were 1 minute in.

 

[zansdad]

I'm fine with him being our PG, I just worry if he tries to score as much as last year hell be pretty much the same as last year(which isn't that bad). I just worry that he'll get fatigued again trying to do too much, and also that our bigs won't get the touches they need. I'd like to see trae become a pass first PG, not a shoot first PG which is what he was last year.

If Moore or Richardson prove to be adequate backups, or if golden gets kemba walker endurance then ok. I just worry trying to score as much as last year hurts him on defense an fatigues him at the end of games.

I think Golden's late game problems came from a lack of a quality back up more than him over-exerting himself scoring.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I think Golden's late game problems came from a lack of a quality back up more than him over-exerting himself scoring.

Could be but he played around 32 mpg, that's what CCMs guards usually play if you look at his missouri state teams, some actually more.

So the minutes really shouldn't be the issue. I still think him trying to take the brunt of the scoring on himself really was taxing for him. As I said, if he improves his endurance enough then ok. But it appeared the extra exertion on offense hurt him late in games, both on defense and ball handling.

 

[zansdad]

I think where we differ is what kind of PG we want golden to be, I prefer the pass first and you prefer the score

okay, there was a lot in your post. Too much really to debate about. So I am going to boil it down to just this part. There is no such thing as a pass first PG. There are good PG and bad ones, that is it. Most of what people call "pass first" PG's are really PG's that cannot shoot. PGs run the offense and get their teammates on the same page. Whether they pass or shoot should depend on the teammates on the floor and their own ability to knock down shots. Golden can make shots, so I am okay with him pulling the trigger. If he couldn't shoot I would label him a "pass first" pg or a "penetrator" and be happy to watch him pass on open shots (can you say Ramar Smith)

 

[bleedingTNorange]

So you wouldn't all Aaron Craft a pass first PG?

 

[zansdad]

Could be but he played around 32 mpg, that's what CCMs guards usually play if you look at his missouri state teams, some actually more.

So the minutes really shouldn't be the issue. I still think him trying to take the brunt of the scoring on himself really was taxing for him. As I said, if he improves his endurance enough then ok. But it appeared the extra exertion on offense hurt him late in games, both on defense and ball handling.

I think this is one place you can't look at season averages. If you look at the biggest games, Golden played a lot of minutes. Especially down the stretch when Martin had just given up on Washpun.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I think this is one place you can't look at season averages. If you look at the biggest games, Golden played a lot of minutes. Especially down the stretch when Martin had just given up on Washpun.

Actually the last 10 games of the year he averaged 32 minutes in regulation, and the last 5 games 32 minutes.

Infact the last game of the year played only 28 minutes.

 

[zansdad]

So you wouldn't all Aaron Craft a pass first PG?

I would call him a great on ball defender that gets his team into their offense and plays with high intensity. I don't like the term pass first. If he passes on open shots routinely then I would say he is more of a "can't shoot" PG than a " pass first". ---->see Rajon Rondo.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I would call him a great on ball defender that gets his team into their offense and plays with high intensity. I don't like the term pass first. If he passes on open shots routinely then I would say he is more of a "can't shoot" PG than a " pass first". ---->see Rajon Rondo.

I guess you just have your own terminology which is fine. I mean craft shoots 50% from the field and 36% from 3, I wouldn't say he can't shoot or call him Rajon Rondo.

He chooses to pass first and enjoys assists more than he does baskets. Kendall Marshall shoots 47% And 36% from 3, Yet dishes 10 assists a game. Everyone in the world calls him a pass first PG, but that doesn't mean he can't shoot. He just simply chooses not to all that often and like craft prefers assists over shots.

IMO both those guys are soo good because they can score, so defenders must respect that. This makes dishing out assists that much easier for them because their defenders have to play honest. Trae is a proven scorer and I think he could excel much the same way both those guys have. The biggest question would become, does he have enough scoring weapons around him to make up for it.

 

[zansdad]

I guess you just have your own terminology which is fine. I mean craft shoots 50% from the field and 36% from 3, I wouldn't say he can't shoot or call him Rajon Rondo.

He chooses to pass first and enjoys assists more than he does baskets. Kendall Marshall shoots 47% And 36% from 3, Yet dishes 10 assists a game. Everyone in the world calls him a pass first PG, but that doesn't mean he can't shoot. He just simply chooses not to all that often and like craft prefers assists over shots.

IMO both those guys are soo good because they can score, so defenders must respect that. This makes dishing out assists that much easier for them because their defenders have to play honest. Trae is a proven scorer and I think he could excel much the same way both those guys have. The biggest question would become, does he have enough scoring weapons around him to make up for it.

Marshall isn't a fair comparison. UNC really gets up and down the floor so 10 assists a game is as much a product of playing fast paced and having McDonald's all Americans as finishers as much any desire to "pass first". Craft is on a much better team so maybe he doesn't feel the need to score, thus a good PG. I am telling you, if Golden doesn't average somewhere around 15ppg next year, UT is going to be hurting.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Marshall isn't a fair comparison. UNC really gets up and down the floor so 10 assists a game is as much a product of playing fast paced and having McDonald's all Americans as finishers as much any desire to "pass first". Craft is on a much better team so maybe he doesn't feel the need to score, thus a good PG. I am telling you, if Golden doesn't average somewhere around 15ppg next year, UT is going to be hurting.

And that's fine if he scores 15ppg, but if he does 1 of 2 things needs to happen. Either his endurance is much better next year or he only plays 25-28 minutes a game, and in effect he is fresh at the end of games.

If traes stats look like last years I don't think well be much better. The biggest issue is the turnovers. If you want him to keep shooting ok, but the defense and turnovers HAVE to improve. If not, then we're in the same boat I think.

Obviously best case is he can play 32mpg not get fatigued, average 15ppg 6ast 2to and still shoot a higher %. Unfortunately that's asking for ALOT, and if it were to happen, that's basically an all-American season.

 

[zansdad]

And that's fine if he scores 15ppg, but if he does 1 of 2 things needs to happen. Either his endurance is much better next year or he only plays 25-28 minutes a game, and in effect he is fresh at the end of games.

If traes stats look like last years I don't think well be much better. The biggest issue is the turnovers. If you want him to keep shooting ok, but the defense and turnovers HAVE to improve. If not, then we're in the same boat I think.

Obviously best case is he can play 32mpg not get fatigued, average 15ppg 6ast 2to and still shoot a higher %. Unfortunately that's asking for ALOT, and if it were to happen, that's basically an all-American season.

TO's were a problem. But I don't see how his TO's and his shooting are related.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

TO's were a problem. But I don't see how his TO's and his shooting are related.

Because I fully believe that him pressing caused some of his turnovers. He penetrated entirely too deep on occasion looking to score and multiple times it resulted in turnovers.

Also, I believe that trying to press his scoring so much caused him to get fatigued. As a result late in games I feel he committed turnovers as a result of being fatigued.

 

[cncchris33]

As I've said I don't think this stat line is something insane..

10pts 6ast 4rbd 2to 3-6fg 1-3 3pt 3-4ft

That's my hope for Trae next year, and possibly a few more shots/game if they're GOOD shots.

Are my expectations really that unrealistic?

We're looking hopefully at 58-60 fg attempts a game this is my hope for distribution...Maymon: 12, Stokes: 12, Jordan: 8, D'montre: 6, Josh: 5, Trae: 6, Skylar: 3, Kenny: 3, Yemi 3.


What would be your ideal Zans?

I know you are driving at the notion that you want Trae to be a more traditional, pass-first, setup the offense, type PG, in favor of feeding the post with more regularity. I just can't imagine why you want McRae to take more shots than Golden based on what we know about them both, and in the same breath, criticize Golden for taking too many "bad" shots. McRae took more bad shots last season than the rest of the returning guards combined.

IMO, Trae is one of our better outside shooters, and certainly most consistent (Skylar is streaky, McRae is streaky and has a flat shot, Richardson doesn't have an outside shot yet). At the same time, Golden is the only guard on the team that can, and/or will consistently attack the paint. Limiting those two abilities to 6 shots a game is hamstringing your offense IMO, especially when no one else has the combination of those abilities to pick up the slack if Trae's shots are scaled back. If McRae shoots 8 times a game, I can guarantee that a minimum of 6 of those will be outside shots (many ill-advised), whereas Golden will take it inside and draw fouls, thus producing opportunities to score at the line.

I'm just not for scaling back Golden's shots simply for the purpose of pigeon-holeing Trae into a more traditional PG stat line, and especially not in favor of someone like McRae who settles for lower % shots to begin with. I'd like to see his assist numbers go up as well, along with the other guards, all in the name of feeding the post more frequently. I'm just not for reigning in his shot-count in favor of a more streaky, one-dimensional guard like McRae.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

That's very true, and I guess my hope is Jordan improves and becomes that elite scorer, but that's probably asking a lot.

Let me clarify I'd love for Golden to score and shoot around the same as last year BUT I want to see the defense improve, assists go up, and turnovers go down. Maybe I'm wrong, but i felt all 3 of those areas suffered last year partially because he was fatigued.

So my opinion has been he needs to exert less offensively as far as shooting to be better in the 3 areas. Ideal scenario, is his endurance improves and he can be what he was shooting and driving last year PLUS that 6 assist 2 turnover PG we are looking for, as well as a solid defensive PG. I guess I have just been going more off the assumption that he won't improve his endurance enough and that it's going to be more of one or the other as far as better bell handling or staying aggressive on offense.

So yes, ideally trae improves his endurance and has a kemba walker type season 34mpg 15ppg 6ast 2to 4rbd 1stl all while still shooting a good % and playing solid D. That's asking him go do an awful lot though, those are AA type numbers, but obviously if e can do it were much better because of it.


NOTE: and to clarify I'm not suggesting McRae take more shots. He averages 8 shots in 21 minutes/game now, by me saying 8 shots I'm going off the assumption hea starting and playing closer to 30 minutes/game. So his shots/minute actually go down, but I get what you're saying about the bad shots he takes. I guess my hope is, is he becomes the type of player we were all hoping for. I feel the level of success this team can rech largely correlates with our weakest position, the 2, and Jordan IMO is without a doubt the guy with the most potential at that position. If he can become the player/scorer we've all been waiting on I think this team can maximize its potential. Jmo though

 

[cncchris33]

That's very true, and I guess my hope is Jordan improves and becomes that elite scorer, but that's probably asking a lot.

Let me clarify I'd love for Golden to score and shoot around the same as last year BUT I want to see the defense improve, assists go up, and turnovers go down. Maybe I'm wrong, but i felt all 3 of those areas suffered last year partially because he was fatigued.

So my opinion has been he needs to exert less offensively as far as shooting to be better in the 3 areas. Ideal scenario, is his endurance improves and he can be what he was shooting and driving last year PLUS that 6 assist 2 turnover PG we are looking for, as well as a solid defensive PG. I guess I have just been going more off the assumption that he won't improve his endurance enough and that it's going to be more of one or the other as far as better bell handling or staying aggressive on offense.

So yes, ideally trae improves his endurance and has a kemba walker type season 34mpg 15ppg 6ast 2to 4rbd 1stl all while still shooting a good % and playing solid D. That's asking him go do an awful lot though, those are AA type numbers, but obviously if e can do it were much better because of it.


NOTE: and to clarify I'm not suggesting McRae take more shots. He averages 8 shots in 21 minutes/game now, by me saying 8 shots I'm going off the assumption hea starting and playing closer to 30 minutes/game. So his shots/minute actually go down, but I get what you're saying about the bad shots he takes. I guess my hope is, is he becomes the type of player we were all hoping for. I feel the level of success this team can rech largely correlates with our weakest position, the 2, and Jordan IMO is without a doubt the guy with the most potential at that position. If he can become the player/scorer we've all been waiting on I think this team can maximize its potential. Jmo though

I can see where you're hopes for Trae are predicated on McRae finally turning the corner. I'd still prefer it be more of Golden being able to shoulder the load from an endurance standpoint in conjunction with McRae, because I like what Trae brings as a scorer. Stanton being available, and hopefully able to take some pressure off Trae, should help in this aspect as well.

I have said it before, but I think this team has the potential to go as far as McRae's development will take them next year.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I can see where you're hopes for Trae are predicated on McRae finally turning the corner. I'd still prefer it be more of Golden being able to shoulder the load from an endurance standpoint in conjunction with McRae, because I like what Trae brings as a scorer. Stanton being available, and hopefully able to take some pressure off Trae, should help in this aspect as well.

I have said it before, but I think this team has the potential to go as far as McRae's development will take them next year.

Probably very true about this team going as far as Jordan. I'd add also traes progression as a PG as well, but he doesn't have as far to come as Jordan in all fairness.

 

[zansdad]

Probably very true about this team going as far as Jordan. I'd add also traes progression as a PG as well, but he doesn't have as far to come as trae in all fairness.

I didn't get that last part. Are you saying Jordan is further along or Trae?

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I didn't get that last part. Are you saying Jordan is further along or Trae?

I meant to say as Jordan not as Trae, that was my bad.

Trae doesn't have as far to go to be there as Jordan does to be there. (there meaning their most potential)

So yea I'm saying Trae is much further along than Jordan.