That Old Time Religion ( ISLAM )

#51
#51
RockyTopVol said:
No it doesn't. I'm just explaining that 9/11 still holds a lot of pain and anger with Americans.
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And how are Pashtun Afghans responsible for 9/11? Tell me how they're responsible and I'll concede this point to you. Then tell me how it's even remotely logical to condemn an entire religion, much less a region, for the actions of a very acute minority.

Bear in mind if you speak out against something in the US you, at the worst, get arrested and maybe get tazed. In Afghanistan they'll just cut your head off and sell your family into slavery. So, bear that in mind with what I'm sure will be a rational response.
 
#53
#53
DC Vol said:
And how are Pashtun Afghans responsible for 9/11? Tell me how they're responsible and I'll concede this point to you. Then tell me how it's even remotely logical to condemn an entire religion, much less a region, for the actions of a very acute minority.

Bear in mind if you speak out against something in the US you, at the worst, get arrested and maybe get tazed. In Afghanistan they'll just cut your head off and sell your family into slavery. So, bear that in mind with what I'm sure will be a rational response.
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I'm not blaming them, Muslim terrorists attacked us on 9/11. The Muslims in the article I posted seem like the same extreme type.
 
#54
#54
Don't forget that a lot of the people writing about Muslim atrocities -- and particularly the people for whom they work -- have a personal or political agenda. They are going to select stories, and write them in such a manner, that fits with their preexisting narrative of what is going on in distant places that we can't see for ourselves.
 
#55
#55
RockyTopVol said:
I'm not blaming them, Muslim terrorists attacked us on 9/11. The Muslims in the article I posted seem like the same extreme type.
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Sorry for lumping you into that group then. Some folks really do think the actions of some reflect the feelings of millions.
 
#56
#56
DC Vol said:
And how are Pashtun Afghans responsible for 9/11? Tell me how they're responsible and I'll concede this point to you. Then tell me how it's even remotely logical to condemn an entire religion, much less a region, for the actions of a very acute minority.

Bear in mind if you speak out against something in the US you, at the worst, get arrested and maybe get tazed. In Afghanistan they'll just cut your head off and sell your family into slavery. So, bear that in mind with what I'm sure will be a rational response.
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We go to war with the country, not the race nor the religion. Do you believe Catholic Americans should be excluded in a war on America started by a Baptist Government.
 
#57
#57
lawgator1 said:
Don't forget that a lot of the people writing about Muslim atrocities -- and particularly the people for whom they work -- have a personal or political agenda. They are going to select stories, and write them in such a manner, that fits with their preexisting narrative of what is going on in distant places that we can't see for ourselves.
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Or its just easier, feel good stories are hard to come by in that region.
 
#58
#58
MontereyVol said:
We go to war with the country, not the race nor the religion. Do you believe Catholic Americans should be excluded in a war on America started by a Baptist Government.
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Just so I understand this correctly... you're in the Rumsfeld "We're on a crusade" bandwagon? If that's true, I thought higher of you Monterey.
 
#60
#60
DC Vol said:
Just so I understand this correctly... you're in the Rumsfeld "We're on a crusade" bandwagon? If that's true, I thought higher of you Monterey.
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Nope, Rumsfeld had some good ideas and some horribly bad ones.

I don't see how my above statement would put me in the crusade column. We (the US) commit war on the country that has struck us regardless if some of those citizens had anything to do with it or not.
 
#61
#61
lawgator1 said:
Don't forget that a lot of the people writing about Muslim atrocities -- and particularly the people for whom they work -- have a personal or political agenda. They are going to select stories, and write them in such a manner, that fits with their preexisting narrative of what is going on in distant places that we can't see for ourselves.
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The photos in the story look pretty real to me. The videos that were on the internet of Nick Berg getting his head sawed off w/ a blunt knife looked pretty real also. The photos of gay men being hung by their neck in Iran looked pretty real. My church worked with an Afghan refugee family that included a 19 year old daughter that endured very real rape by her father-in-law and "female circumcision" that left her bleeding for months after being given into an arranged marriage.

You can say they "selected" this story, but I would hope that even one incident of stoning in this country would lead to justice for the victim, perhaps not "swift" justice anymore, but justice nonetheless.

For whatever it's worth, the greatest atrocities that my eyes have seen were being perpetrated by men who were chanting "allahu akbar".

If the perpetrators had been chanting the name of my Lord and Savior, my condemnation of them would be just as loud, if not louder. And since I'm am very familiar with that "manual", I would be able to show clearly the error of their interpretation. The first Christian martyr, Stephen, was stoned to death. As he was being stoned, he prayed out loud for the forgiveness of those who were stoning him.

But we seldom hear any of those loud voices of correction and opposition when Islam is involved.
 
#62
#62
MontereyVol said:
Nope, Rumsfeld had some good ideas and some horribly bad ones.

I don't see how my above statement would put me in the crusade column. We (the US) commit war on the country that has struck us regardless if some of those citizens had anything to do with it or not.
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And that bred more terrorists. Showing complete disregard for a complex tribal structure and further not understanding cultural and religious intricacies really really made a muck of things.

The Afghan people, nor Islam as a religion, should have been, or be, on the hook for 9/11.
 
#63
#63
BeecherVol said:
True,

Be like trying to figure out how many players we can sign in the recruiting forum. If you don't remember, just bring it up again and watch how different answers you get. And it typically comes back to the original #.
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Haha, that's so true.
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#64
#64
DC Vol said:
And that bred more terrorists. Showing complete disregard for a complex tribal structure and further not understanding cultural and religious intricacies really really made a muck of things.

The Afghan people, nor Islam as a religion, should have been, or be, on the hook for 9/11.
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This is right on, IMO. We want to be able to label some nation or group "the bad guys," but unfortunately it isn't that simple this time, if it ever was. Globalization is creating a complexity to geopolitics that makes us have to swing our baseball bat at ants. This kicks up more ants.

We have to approach these things in new ways. It's a new world.
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#65
#65
DC Vol said:
And that bred more terrorists. Showing complete disregard for a complex tribal structure and further not understanding cultural and religious intricacies really really made a muck of things.

The Afghan people, nor Islam as a religion, should have been, or be, on the hook for 9/11.
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The afghan people supported the government that committed an act of war upon the US. Did all of them support their government, no. But you do not commit to war under your scenario that's what makes a muck of things. As a member of the military I do not care about their complex cultural/religious intricacies nor do they care for ours.

The US has not committed war on Islam. Nor has Islam declared war on us. Believe me, one day when China or some other country start bombing our doorstep they will not conduct a war on the feelings of our complex society.
 
#66
#66
IPorange said:
This is right on, IMO. We want to be able to label some nation or group "the bad guys," but unfortunately it isn't that simple this time, if it ever was. Globalization is creating a complexity to geopolitics that makes us have to swing our baseball bat at ants. This kicks up more ants.

We have to approach these things in new ways. It's a new world.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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When was it ever simple? Do you know how the World Wars started, name a war that did not kick up a bunch of sympathizers, even the Nazi's had allies. The complexity exist in keeping the allies at bay while you conduct the war.
 
#67
#67
MontereyVol said:
The afghan people supported the government that committed an act of war upon the US. Did all of them support their government, no. But you do not commit to war under your scenario that's what makes a muck of things. As a member of the military I do not care about their complex cultural/religious intricacies nor do they care for ours.

The US has not committed war on Islam. Nor has Islam declared war on us. Believe me, one day when China or some other country start bombing our doorstep they will not conduct a war on the feelings of our complex society.
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This is not a conventional war. The "rules" of how to fight a conventional war do not apply. In order to suppress the spread of the ideal that supports terrorism (that was the reason for going into Afghanistan, in case you've forgotten)... you can't feed the blasted ideal. Most Afghans also didn't support the Taliban (again, not a government). They simply didn't feel like getting their heads removed from their shoulders and their children sold as slaves because they opposed them.

Equating Afghanistan with China in a conventional war is laughable.
 
#68
#68
DC Vol said:
This is not a conventional war. The "rules" of how to fight a conventional war do not apply. In order to suppress the spread of the ideal that supports terrorism (that was the reason for going into Afghanistan, in case you've forgotten)... you can't feed the blasted ideal. Most Afghans also didn't support the Taliban (again, not a government). They simply didn't feel like getting their heads removed from their shoulders and their children sold as slaves because they opposed them.

Equating Afghanistan with China in a conventional war is laughable.
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Your wrong, this should be a conventional war. We proved that during the first Gulf war. We should have gone in with an objective and smashed our way to it. Since you apparently were not in during the spin up for this war we did not (as the military) go in to stop the support of terrorism. Trying to field warfare in its current state is what is the problem, we are taking their cultural religious views into account and that has bogged the machine down.
 
#69
#69
DC Vol said:
Equating Afghanistan with China in a conventional war is laughable.
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Not equating the two's capabilities. I was driving at if you think China will take into account our societal complexities when they start a war with us. Doesn't have to be China either pick any country you want and let me know if you seriously believe they would care one whit outside of using it against us.
 
#70
#70
MontereyVol said:
Your wrong, this should be a conventional war. We proved that during the first Gulf war. We should have gone in with an objective and smashed our way to it. Since you apparently were not in during the spin up for this war we did not (as the military) go in to stop the support of terrorism. Trying to field warfare in its current state is what is the problem, we are taking their cultural religious views into account and that has bogged the machine down.
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what would be your military objective in Afghanistan? Going to crush every **** hole village?

There's no infrastructure to disable. No industry to cripple. No war machine to cut the head off.

The modern us military is the most powerful and precise force in history. But that tool doesn't match this job. You can't precision bomb ignorance, jealousy, or fanaticism.
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#71
#71
MontereyVol said:
Not equating the two's capabilities. I was driving at if you think China will take into account our societal complexities when they start a war with us. Doesn't have to be China either pick any country you want and let me know if you seriously believe they would care one whit outside of using it against us.
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We aren't socially complex. We fit the classical model of a nation-state-- unlike our nationless decentralized extremist enemies.
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#72
#72
MontereyVol said:
Your wrong, this should be a conventional war. We proved that during the first Gulf war. We should have gone in with an objective and smashed our way to it. Since you apparently were not in during the spin up for this war we did not (as the military) go in to stop the support of terrorism. Trying to field warfare in its current state is what is the problem, we are taking their cultural religious views into account and that has bogged the machine down.
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GWOT is a global military but primarily idealogical war on terrorism. Putting villages to the sword makes us no better than the militia groups that have oppressed them previously.

Doing what you suggest (forcing a conventional war against an unidentifiable enemy) would have landed us exactly where the Soviets ended up. You kill one fighter but due to your tactics you create 2. They didn't win... and we can't win that war either. I guess you know all this, though. The entire IC and the JCS current strategy are also completely wrong as well.
 
#73
#73
MontereyVol said:
Not equating the two's capabilities. I was driving at if you think China will take into account our societal complexities when they start a war with us. Doesn't have to be China either pick any country you want and let me know if you seriously believe they would care one whit outside of using it against us.
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Lets go with Mexico.


Their drug cartels are kidnapping Americans and their turf wars are spilling onto American streets. Why don't we go to war with the Mexican government/people then? They're all Mexicans, after all.
 
#74
#74
IPorange said:
what would be your military objective in Afghanistan? Going to crush every **** hole village?
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Did we do that in the gulf war?

There's no infrastructure to disable. No industry to cripple. No war machine to cut the head off.
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their war machine may not have had what you consider hardware but we had a head to cut off and we were called off

The modern us military is the most powerful and precise force in history. But that tool doesn't match this job. You can't precision bomb ignorance, jealousy, or fanaticism.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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But you can kill your enemy.
 
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