The Atlanta Braves Thread (Javy Lopez Edition)

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#9,928
#9,928
Vercingetorix said:
"Clutch" is a myth. There are guys who choke in the big moment, yes. There is nobody who actually gets better. Anyone who thinks differently needs to look up Derek Jeter's career stats in the ALCS.
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I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here...are you saying that no one plays better in the playoffs? If so, I find that hard to believe.
 
#9,929
#9,929
Scotty's Flat Top said:
FNFN
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Scotty!!!
 
#9,933
#9,933
BigOrange15 said:
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here...are you saying that no one plays better in the playoffs? If so, I find that hard to believe.
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If "clutchness" actually exists, at least in the sense that people usually mean it -- ie, someone who actually gets _better_ than they normally are in clutch and/or playoff situations -- then it ought to be measurable and consistent, and it isn't. This is easy to demonstrate in a stats-heavy sport like baseball, where the example I like to use is that Mr Clutch Derek Jeter has hit better than his overall career numbers in the ALDS and World Series, but considerably WORSE than his career numbers in the ALCS. The guys who hit better than usual in two-out RBI situations one year don't do it year after year. Etc.

You can't demonstrate any of this with stats w/r/t NFL quarterbacks in the playoffs, where all they get judged on is whether their team wins the game or not, and stats are considered to be beside the point. But the rush to explain everything in terms of character-driven personality traits is even worse. For example, for years everyone blamed the Colts' inability to win in the playoffs on Peyton Manning being a choker, rather than his team's inability to put together a defense. Matt Ryan's about to be in the same boat. Eli's teams had a great defense, so now he's got a reputation for "ice water in his veins." Most of it is silliness.

There may be some hope, though, in that the expected "Joe Flacco Is An Assassin Who Knows How To Get It Done On The Biggest Stage!" groundswell hasn't happened. For once, everybody seems to understand that that's nonsense.
 
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#9,934
#9,934
A-friggin-men . . . It gets so old watching sports hacks develop a narrative and then wedge everybody into it.
 
#9,935
#9,935
Vercingetorix said:
If "clutchness" actually exists, at least in the sense that people usually mean it -- ie, someone who actually gets _better_ than they normally are in clutch and/or playoff situations -- then it ought to be measurable and consistent, and it isn't. This is easy to demonstrate in a stats-heavy sport like baseball, where the example I like to use is that Mr Clutch Derek Jeter has hit better than his overall career numbers in the ALDS and World Series, but considerably WORSE than his career numbers in the ALCS. The guys who hit better than usual in two-out RBI situations one year don't do it year after year. Etc.

You can't demonstrate any of this with stats w/r/t NFL quarterbacks in the playoffs, where all they get judged on is whether their team wins the game or not, and stats are considered to be beside the point. But the rush to explain everything in terms of character-driven personality traits is even worse. For example, for years everyone blamed the Colts' inability to win in the playoffs on Peyton Manning being a choker, rather than his team's inability to put together a defense. Matt Ryan's about to be in the same boat. Eli's teams had a great defense, so now he's got a reputation for "ice water in his veins." Most of it is silliness.

There may be some hope, though, in that the expected "Joe Flacco Is An Assassin Who Knows How To Get It Done On The Biggest Stage!" groundswell hasn't happened. For once, everybody seems to understand that that's nonsense.
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Fair enough.
 
#9,936
#9,936
GAVol said:
A-friggin-men . . . It gets so old watching sports hacks develop a narrative and then wedge everybody into it.
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The ex-jocks on TV spin a self-aggrandizing mythology about how success in sports doesn't come from being stronger or faster or better at some arbitrary physical skill like throwing a ball through a hoop, but rather from character and moral fiber. Everything flows from that.
 
#9,937
#9,937
Vercingetorix said:
"Clutch" is a myth. There are guys who choke in the big moment, yes. There is nobody who actually gets better. Anyone who thinks differently needs to look up Derek Jeter's career stats in the ALCS.
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Maybe "clutchness" is the relative lack of choking; not necessarily one "getting better".
 
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#9,938
#9,938
PKT_VOL said:
Maybe "clutchness" is the relative lack of choking; not necessarily one "getting better".
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I think that's the case, but in that sense the vast majority of professional athletes are clutch. Very few athletes at the highest level get so caught up in the pressure of the moment that they aren't able to approach the game/sport in a way that's pretty much business as usual. The American sports concept of "clutch" generally holds that there are a few special guys who can consistently perform at an even higher level than normal in big moments, and there's no evidence that that's the case.
 
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#9,941
#9,941
Vercingetorix said:
I think that's the case, but in that sense the vast majority of professional athletes are clutch. Very few athletes at the highest level get so caught up in the pressure of the moment that they aren't able to approach the game/sport in a way that's pretty much business as usual. The American sports concept of "clutch" generally holds that there are a few special guys who can raise their game even higher than usual in big moments, and there's no evidence that that's the case.
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I dunno, the Braves seem to have quality on lock down.
 
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