The Fermi Paradox

[Plano Vol]

Y'all need to read more Douglas Adams and get the right slant on this stuff.

Talk about filters. There was a show about how the earth made man. They said at one point after a mega eruption, the total human population left alive might have filled a medium sized auditorium.

 

[n_huffhines]

I'm going with possibility #10. Good read, thanks for sharing.

 

[n_huffhines]

I'm not sure any other civilization would want to deal with such a backwards sect as earthling. Might be why they observe us but avoid us.

I heard a funny opinion once....somebody said the only reason that we think Aliens would violently subjugate us is because throughout our existence that is what technologically superior groups have done to inferior groups. Hopefully aliens would be on a higher plane than us, morally speaking.

 

[Slydell]

I heard a funny opinion once....somebody said the only reason that we think Aliens would violently subjugate us is because throughout our existence that is what technologically superior groups have done to inferior groups. Hopefully aliens would be on a higher plane than us, morally speaking.

My thought would be they are. That's how they became superior in all ways. Their creativity wasn't geared towards wars and such.

 

[PKT_VOL]

If you read on the position and atmospheric qualities of Earth, they not only create a unique, stable environment to sustain life, but they also give us an unparalleled ability to observe the rest of the universe. It appears that someone is showcasing His masterpiece.

That doesn't really address my post at all.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Sorry, but in just not wired to believe things like that. I really feel a deeper purpose and a calling, and it's reassuring to know that God created me for a reason, loves me despite my many shortcomings, and has made provision for me to spend an eternity in His presence.

Without God, nothing really makes sense.

Fascinating thought process. I am just the opposite. I would be hopelessly loss at making sense of it all via a personal (Christian non-Mormon) God.

Amazing that two people can grow up in relatively the same time period, country, and region but come away with two radically different lens in which we view the world.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Psalm 19:1

Pretty impressive if you ask me.

The universe is impressive. That verse is pretty vague relative to the questions in my post.

 

[PKT_VOL]

only a relevant question if you believe man is God's only intelligent being creation. Makes sense to me that the creator had bigger plans than just us.

Yeah, that was kinda what I was getting at with those questions. The universe seems to run contrary to a single, personal, anthropocentric God. Hell, even something like the Mormon God, would make more sense in answering those questions.

I agree with you, I do believe there is other intelligent life out there; just sheer statistics.

 

[PKT_VOL]

1. Meh, they could still be keeping tabs and we would never know, see 6 & 9. or they could have died off/been killed off 4 & 5

If they were killed off by a superpredator or some other thing, we are in deep sh*t.

2. Maybe they saw this solar system was occupied and were benevolent enough to leave us in peace. maybe they expanded to a certain point had a civil war or something and didn't get around to colonizing the WHOLE galaxy. any number of reasons here- we still haven't fully colonized our planet yet and the galaxy is a lot bigger proportionally to a level 2 race than the planet is to us a level 1. (going off that system that rates a culture by how much of a energy source they use)

Very true. Good point.

I do doubt the benevolent idea. Although they could be benevolent, you would think they would make their presence known.

3 (your 4) see 6 & 9. and we have been listening for so short of a time and in such a limited manner that we could easily have missed any number of things, we still haven't figured out what really went on on Mars how can you expect us to know about everything out there.

Very true, again. In cosmic time, we have been listening for a nanosecond.

5. a fair point, maybe they are saving us for later, if there was truly a galaxy spanning uber predator race they would have to be careful not to expend resources too fast, even on a galatic scale resources are finite. so we could be being saved for later, who knows, again just one possibility.

That would make sense if they were big enough to be top-dogs of the Milky Way but advanced enough to be intergalactic. Or, for whatever reason, they have a problem with sustainability and have to pace themselves. It could be that they are superpreadators, relative to the Milky Way, but are hiding from even bigger superpreadators that are intergalactic.

6 & 9. again even for the 50 years we have been sending out messages our message wouldnt have even reached 2% (probably not even 1%)of the galaxy, the messages we are sending out are much slower than light speed and the galaxy is how many light years across? so maybe they haven't heard yet. or maybe their message hasn't gotten back to us yet. maybe they heard and deemed us unimportant while they talk to the important races in the galaxy, like ignoring your younger sibling at your house party while hitting on all the attractive girls. maybe its like Trek like someone somewhere suggested and its against their "Prime Directive"

100,000–120,000 light-years.

This would also make sense if they were on the same level, or at least a similar level (maybe off their planet but still in their own neighborhood) of intelligence.

 

[kiddiedoc]

That doesn't really address my post at all.

I guess I misunderstood your questions. Are you asking, instead, why things would have been created at all?

 

[PKT_VOL]

Here's the one I choose to believe. Maybe the universe really was created by an all powerful God, and by His choice He picked earth as the only planet on which to create intelligent life. JMO, but maybe there's some merit to it.
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Why this universe, why the milky way, why this leg of the pinwheel, why this solar system, why Earth? Why create the rest of the universe or multiverse?

If you read on the position and atmospheric qualities of Earth, they not only create a unique, stable environment to sustain life, but they also give us an unparalleled ability to observe the rest of the universe. It appears that someone is showcasing His masterpiece.

I guess I misunderstood your questions. Are you asking, instead, why things would have been created at all?

No.

My questions were meant to try an understand the mindset of a devout Judeo-Christian. More specefically, I am trying to understand how they (in this case, MyBloodRunnethOrange and yourself) reconcile their/your belief in a single, personal, anthropocentric God AND the vastness of the universe, both in size and quantity of entities outside of our solar system. The fact that we are in one universe (in a possible multiverse), one supercluster of many, one galaxy of countless within our supercluster, one star within a countless of number of stars and planets within the Milky Way.

Your response was about the relative uniqueness of Earth from an anthropocentric point of view. My point was about Earth relative to the universe/multiverse with respect to a Judeo-Christian outlook.

It would seem to me that Earth would naturally follow the anthropocentric point of view. It would seem that the Earth should be in a more central (in place/position), important, and unique within the universe/multiverse. However, the facts of the universe dispute this (and seemingly continue to dispute this with new information that we glean with every new discovery).

 

[kiddiedoc]

I see.

First, it is important that I (or we) do not try to box God into our human constraints of time and space. He is eternal and infinite. Compared to that, a universe with an apparent beginning (and assumed end) is relatively limited and small.

As to position and uniqueness: there is nothing anthropocentric about the Judeo-Christian belief. God is the center of it all. Where He chose to position His creations is irrelevant, and the reasons are known only to Him. What we do know is that we are positioned in a very precise position that allows life as He created to exist and thrive. We are given a wonderful vantage point from which to view the heavens. We have never found any conclusive evidence that any other extraterrestrial life exists, nor that any other planet exists that is capable of sustaining such life. Again, I do not assert that the existence of other life or habitable planets would juxtapose the existence of a Divine Creator. We just don't have any tangible evidence (scientifically or Biblically) that it exists.

I will go ahead and answer my supposed question, to the best of my abilities, as well:

God created us because He is a God of love. In his abundance of love, He created us with the intent to share His love and creation. Not to fulfill His need for worship or adoration, not to be His little minions, not for any "need," as He is perfect and Holy. The best analogy I have read (although it is far from ideal, but in human terms) is likening our existence to the decision of a loving husband and wife to have children. In a healthy marriage, we don't have kids to fulfill a need or desire, but rather to share life and love. I think this is a reflection of God that was created in us....a little glimpse into the idea that we were made "in His own image."

Even as a believer, I ask these questions too, and I really enjoy sharing what I have learned through reading, education, reflection, and prayer. I appreciate your civil and inquisitive discussion, even though we may not agree. In truth, it challenges me to search for the same answers in my own faith, and of that I am truly thankful.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

PKT, the answer to your question as best I understand it is found in Genesis 1:14. He chose the placement of the stars in the sky as a calendar of sorts.

God created man to live off the land, and early man didn't have the luxury of looking at a calendar to know that it is July 9. What he did have was the ability to know, according to the location of the stars in the sky, when it was time to plant and when it was time to harvest.

I think the vastness of the universe speaks to how awesome and majestic God truly is. If you look on to verse 16 it describes the creation of the sun and moon. Then it mentions the creation of the stars almost as an afterthought.
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[BigOrangeTrain]

No.

My questions were meant to try an understand the mindset of a devout Judeo-Christian. More specefically, I am trying to understand how they (in this case, MyBloodRunnethOrange and yourself) reconcile their/your belief in a single, personal, anthropocentric God AND the vastness of the universe, both in size and quantity of entities outside of our solar system. The fact that we are in one universe (in a possible multiverse), one supercluster of many, one galaxy of countless within our supercluster, one star within a countless of number of stars and planets within the Milky Way.

Your response was about the relative uniqueness of Earth from an anthropocentric point of view. My point was about Earth relative to the universe/multiverse with respect to a Judeo-Christian outlook.

It would seem to me that Earth would naturally follow the anthropocentric point of view. It would seem that the Earth should be in a more central (in place/position), important, and unique within the universe/multiverse. However, the facts of the universe dispute this (and seemingly continue to dispute this with new information that we glean with every new discovery).

The facts are we will never understand the universe and it's mysteries. You can try and deduce Earth and God into some sort of conceptual box but all you will do is create more questions than answers. Earth is the most unique planet in our solar system. Coincidence? Don't think so. God made Earth so unique for a purpose. For exactly what I have no idea.

 

[BenGrimm]

The facts are we will never understand the universe and it's mysteries. You can try and deduce Earth and God into some sort of conceptual box but all you will do is create more questions than answers. Earth is the most unique planet in our solar system. Coincidence? Don't think so. God made Earth so unique for a purpose. For exactly what I have no idea.

That's a bold statement when you consider how much we have discovered already in such a small amount of time (cosmically speaking).

 

[PKT_VOL]

I see.

First, it is important that I (or we) do not try to box God into our human constraints of time and space. He is eternal and infinite. Compared to that, a universe with an apparent beginning (and assumed end) is relatively limited and small.

As to position and uniqueness: there is nothing anthropocentric about the Judeo-Christian belief. God is the center of it all. Where He chose to position His creations is irrelevant, and the reasons are known only to Him. What we do know is that we are positioned in a very precise position that allows life as He created to exist and thrive. We are given a wonderful vantage point from which to view the heavens. We have never found any conclusive evidence that any other extraterrestrial life exists, nor that any other planet exists that is capable of sustaining such life. Again, I do not assert that the existence of other life or habitable planets would juxtapose the existence of a Divine Creator. We just don't have any tangible evidence (scientifically or Biblically) that it exists.

I will go ahead and answer my supposed question, to the best of my abilities, as well:

God created us because He is a God of love. In his abundance of love, He created us with the intent to share His love and creation. Not to fulfill His need for worship or adoration, not to be His little minions, not for any "need," as He is perfect and Holy. The best analogy I have read (although it is far from ideal, but in human terms) is likening our existence to the decision of a loving husband and wife to have children. In a healthy marriage, we don't have kids to fulfill a need or desire, but rather to share life and love. I think this is a reflection of God that was created in us....a little glimpse into the idea that we were made "in His own image."

Even as a believer, I ask these questions too, and I really enjoy sharing what I have learned through reading, education, reflection, and prayer. I appreciate your civil and inquisitive discussion, even though we may not agree. In truth, it challenges me to search for the same answers in my own faith, and of that I am truly thankful.

I gleaned that your interpretation of the discrepancy is that it is irrelevant and unknowable to us. I disagree with the first but essentially agree with the second if the Judeo-Christian faith was true (but that opens up another can of warms). Nonetheless, I find such answers nagging and unsatisfactory.

As to the rest of your post, I don't wish to turn this into a theological thread. However, I will say, with respect to the bold, I completely disagree. The Bible was not written/inspired for God. It was written/inspired for mankind (his supposed creations). God does not need the Bible; it serves no purpose onto himself. He could start all over with another universe, new creations, new laws, etc. if he so desired. Humans cannot say the same.

 

[PKT_VOL]

PKT, the answer to your question as best I understand it is found in Genesis 1:14. He chose the placement of the stars in the sky as a calendar of sorts.

God created man to live off the land, and early man didn't have the luxury of looking at a calendar to know that it is July 9. What he did have was the ability to know, according to the location of the stars in the sky, when it was time to plant and when it was time to harvest.

I think the vastness of the universe speaks to how awesome and majestic God truly is. If you look on to verse 16 it describes the creation of the sun and moon. Then it mentions the creation of the stars almost as an afterthought.
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MyBloodRunnethOrange, the universe is unspeakably amazing, incredible, and magnificent. Cheapening such a creation, with all of its intricacies, to mere big calender seems insulting to your deity. If your deity is indeed true, the purpose of the other stars/planets/moons/black holes/galaxies/dark matter/dark energy/possible multiverse extend far beyond a calendar for mankind on planet Earth.

Most of the stars/galaxies in the observable universe are not visible to the naked eye. Thus, they would not serve as a calendar to most of mankind (throughout history).

 

[PKT_VOL]

The facts are we will never understand the universe and it's mysteries. You can try and deduce Earth and God into some sort of conceptual box but all you will do is create more questions than answers. Earth is the most unique planet in our solar system. Coincidence? Don't think so. God made Earth so unique for a purpose. For exactly what I have no idea.

This is one of the more anthropocentric posts I have seen.

Earth is no more unique than any other planet in our solar system. You are confusing unique and valuable. Unique =/= valuable. From a human perspective, Earth is extremely valuable within our solar system being the only planet or moon that can sustain life as we know it. Other forms of life might not find Earth as valuable as Venus or another planet.

 

[LouderVol]

That's a bold statement when you consider how much we have discovered already in such a small amount of time (cosmically speaking).

you seem to operating under the assumption that what we have discovered makes up a big portion of the knowledge out there, which is incredibly laughable. We have no idea how much there is to discover. We still haven't mastered/discovered/know everything about our own planet that we have been stuck on since our creation. We aren't even close to knowing everything about the surface of our planet, and most of the stuff we 'know' are just theories too

 

[LouderVol]

I see.

First, it is important that I (or we) do not try to box God into our human constraints of time and space. He is eternal and infinite. Compared to that, a universe with an apparent beginning (and assumed end) is relatively limited and small.

As to position and uniqueness: there is nothing anthropocentric about the Judeo-Christian belief. God is the center of it all. Where He chose to position His creations is irrelevant, and the reasons are known only to Him. What we do know is that we are positioned in a very precise position that allows life as He created to exist and thrive. We are given a wonderful vantage point from which to view the heavens. We have never found any conclusive evidence that any other extraterrestrial life exists, nor that any other planet exists that is capable of sustaining such life. Again, I do not assert that the existence of other life or habitable planets would juxtapose the existence of a Divine Creator. We just don't have any tangible evidence (scientifically or Biblically) that it exists.

I will go ahead and answer my supposed question, to the best of my abilities, as well:

God created us because He is a God of love. In his abundance of love, He created us with the intent to share His love and creation. Not to fulfill His need for worship or adoration, not to be His little minions, not for any "need," as He is perfect and Holy. The best analogy I have read (although it is far from ideal, but in human terms) is likening our existence to the decision of a loving husband and wife to have children. In a healthy marriage, we don't have kids to fulfill a need or desire, but rather to share life and love. I think this is a reflection of God that was created in us....a little glimpse into the idea that we were made "in His own image."

Even as a believer, I ask these questions too, and I really enjoy sharing what I have learned through reading, education, reflection, and prayer. I appreciate your civil and inquisitive discussion, even though we may not agree. In truth, it challenges me to search for the same answers in my own faith, and of that I am truly thankful.

There is a lot in here I like and agree with. :hi:

 

[LouderVol]

This is coming for a person of very deep Christian belief, I hate the term religious, if you read the creation story in the bible it essentially lines up with the main theories on how life and the universe came to be. At first there was nothing then God decided to make something. (Big Bang) the nothing but darkness then God started making light (stars) then he created our world and our star (our solar system is cosmically young so there were plenty of stars before ours) Then he molded the earth, and then he covered it in water, and created the land and so on and so forth. (it took the earth billions of years to get to a relatively stable surface capable of supporting life plus atmosphere) the first life he created were fish in the sea then birds in the air. (the birds is the only really mistake in creation story vs science, but life began in the oceans, and the first life that would have mattered would have been water borne (fish to the ancients)) then he created the rest of the animals then he created man last. (sure sounds like evolution to me) And before the bible beaters go off on God creating the universe in 6 days (rested on the 7th) there were 3 days before the sun was created, that is how we (humans) have always judged a day, so how exactly would the first 3 days have been measured without a sun. I believe the bible (and early Judeo lore-Torah) used the term days so that people could understand the term. Billions of years, and distant stars would have meant nothing to the people of the time so they changed it to something they could wrap their heads around. they also thought the world was flat and center of the universe because that is how they described it. The bible was not meant to be an encyclopedia and tell us everything so yeah there are going to some wrong pieces. It was written down roughly 3000-2500 years ago and would have been passed along orally before, stuff would have been changed and dropped from what the original story/history was. So the fact that these ancient Jews got it so right tells me God did tell them whats up. (prepare yourself for this next comment because it is a doozy) I believe God created evolution, knowing where it would lead (to us) He allowed us to form over time similar to how He gave us free will to choose to come to love Him. He could have made us love Him but that is not what He wanted for us. I agree with PKT don't limit God to a book, even the good book.

now with that said I also believe some of the basic principals of science tell us there must be God. (or at the very least a divine entity) You can't have something from nothing. Where did all of this stuff in the universe originally come from? Even though the Big Bang has been thrown out in some scientific circles the other theories are largely similar, but still it starts with this infinitesimally small thing where all of the matter was then it imploded and over time the universe. Where did it come from, we will likely never know how stuff came to be, even if it was energy, where did that come from? It seems a logical conclusion to me that something outside the realm of science created whatever truly came first, and I believe that was God. (some people will want to argue that it wasn't the Judeo-Christian God as we see Him, but I believe it was)

 

[LouderVol]

I don't like how in general when people get together to talk science &/vs faith (again not religion) that is "OR". 'it is either this OR that'. 'I'm right and you are wrong'. That is just childish in the extreme. Why not "AND", it could be this AND that, as opposed to this OR that. Now what is this "this or/and that" remains to be seen.

 

[BenGrimm]

you seem to operating under the assumption that what we have discovered makes up a big portion of the knowledge out there, which is incredibly laughable. We have no idea how much there is to discover. We still haven't mastered/discovered/know everything about our own planet that we have been stuck on since our creation. We aren't even close to knowing everything about the surface of our planet, and most of the stuff we 'know' are just theories too

I'm not saying we know anywhere close to everything but to say we never will as the person I responded to was implying is laughable as well. In the relatively short time that man has been studying the universe we have discovered so much already.

I've read several of your posts Louder, and you seem smart enough to know the term 'theory' in regards to science is based in facts. It's not a hypothesis.

I like how you reconcile science with your faith. Many have problems doing that.

 

[LouderVol]

I'm not saying we know anywhere close to everything but to say we never will as the person I responded to was implying is laughable as well. In the relatively short time that man has been studying the universe we have discovered so much already.

I've read several of your posts Louder, and you seem smart enough to know the term 'theory' in regards to science is based in facts. It's not a hypothesis.

I like how you reconcile science with your faith. Many have problems doing that.

:hi:

and yes theory part is based on facts but its an ever changing boundary, which is why I believe there always be an unknown. There will always have to be one more step to take. After we cross one boundary there will be another and another. Life, the universe, knowledge and God are always ongoing, never ending entities. The curious side of me never wants there to be an end, I want to believe in the perpetual betterment of mankind, and knowledge will be key to that.