The Impeachment Thread

#8,127
#8,127
37L1 said:
What is reasonable? These could seem "reasonable" and have been tendered for quite some time now. Either you missed them (surprise) or you don't think they are "reasonable" (surprise).

"Bill, I believe you are incorrect about President Trump's intentions. The President has been crystal clear: no quid pro quo’s of any kind. The President is trying to evaluate whether Ukraine is truly going to adopt the transparency and reforms that President Zelenskiy promised during his campaign," Sondland says.


"I said hold it up," Trump told reporters during a photo-op with the U.K Prime Minister Boris Johnson. "Let's get others to pay."

"I made that loud and clear," he said and "told it to a lot of people."

His argument that European nations needed to contribute more to Ukraine was a new reason given for his claim he was concerned about sending aid -- beyond the "corruption" in Ukraine that he’s previously cited.

The Washington Post was first to report that Trump ordered Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney to hold back almost $400 million in military aid at least a week before the July 25 phone call.

Officials at the State Department and the Pentagon were told the president had “concerns” about corruption in Ukraine and wanted to analyze whether the money needed to be spent, the Post cited officials as saying and ABC News confirmed.

“As far as withholding funds, those funds were paid. They were fully paid. But my complaint has always been and I withhold again and I'll continue to withhold until such time as Europe and other nations contribute to Ukraine,” Trump said.
He continued: “What I want and I insist on it is Europe has to put up money for Ukraine also. Why is it only the United States putting up the money? And by the way, we paid that money. But I always ask, aren't other countries in Europe especially putting up money for Ukraine?”

Trump froze aid before call with Ukraine's president asking him to probe Biden
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You are correct. At this point in time, I think only irrational people would believe there was no intent on Trump's part to use the aid package as leverage to get inviestigations into Biden.

And again, if there were a sensible explanation otherwise, the administration would have trotted that out some time ago.
 
#8,130
#8,130
AirVol said:
Well, we’re talking about the corrupt state dept, so.....
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The state dept hasn't had a thorough house cleaning in decades ... talk about entrenched establishment. There are likely dead bodies at desks because the dead never bothered to notify anyone in their chain they had died.
 
#8,133
#8,133
lawgator1 said:
You are correct. At this point in time, I think only irrational people would believe there was no intent on Trump's part to use the aid package as leverage to get inviestigations into Biden.

And again, if there were a sensible explanation otherwise, the administration would have trotted that out some time ago.
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So anything "they trot out" is not sensible. Got it.
You are far from an objective, impartial observer. You are making a lot of assumptions and, I would hope, that if you had a client that was being prosecuted on such assumptions, that you would be a better arbiter of "reasonable doubt". I have yet to see what could be defined as proof by clear and convincing evidence that would stand up in a trial.

At this point in time, I think those that have been trying for a "YGHN" would believe anything that they can. To them (you), there is illegal intent with everything Trump did, does and will do, no matter any "sensible" explanation otherwise.
 
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#8,137
#8,137
37L1 said:
So anything "they trot out" is not sensible. Got it.
You are far from an objective, impartial observer. You are making a lot of assumptions and, I would hope, that if you had a client that was being prosecuted on such assumptions, that you would be a better arbiter of "reasonable doubt". I have yet to see what could be defined as proof by clear and convincing evidence that would stand up in a trial.

At this point in time, I think those that have been trying for a "YGHN" would believe anything that they can. To them (you), there is illegal intent with everything Trump did, does and will do, no matter any "sensible" explanation otherwise.
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The ONLY alternative explanation I have heard so far is Trump's claim that he blocked the aid in protest to other countries not giving enough.

The problems with that claim are:

a) The odds that he would have done that, without a major speech and a bunch of tweets patting himself on the back for demanding more European involvement, are less than zero. Far less than zero. His base would have worshipped him even more for that. No way he did it for that reason.

b) The facts show that European countries have given far more than us, so he looked like an idiot for even suggesting that lame explanation.

c) Trump's defenders have all abandoned the argument because they realize how dumb it is.
 
#8,139
#8,139
VolnJC said:
Carter Page and James Rosen should sue the FBI if that is even possible
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Trump's FBI?
The bureau’s so-called backdoor searches, long regarded by civil libertarians as a government end-run around warrant requirements, were overly broad, the court found. They appear to have impacted what a judge on the court called “a large number of individuals, including U.S. persons.” On one day in December 2017 alone, the court found, the FBI conducted 6,800 queries of the NSA databases using Social Security numbers.
 
#8,140
#8,140
Mick said:
Trump's FBI?
The bureau’s so-called backdoor searches, long regarded by civil libertarians as a government end-run around warrant requirements, were overly broad, the court found. They appear to have impacted what a judge on the court called “a large number of individuals, including U.S. persons.” On one day in December 2017 alone, the court found, the FBI conducted 6,800 queries of the NSA databases using Social Security numbers.
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Whoever's FBi and CIA we need more law enforcement and military people and fewer political appointees especially at the top
 
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#8,142
#8,142
lawgator1 said:
The ONLY alternative explanation I have heard so far is Trump's claim that he blocked the aid in protest to other countries not giving enough.

The problems with that claim are:

a) The odds that he would have done that, without a major speech and a bunch of tweets patting himself on the back for demanding more European involvement, are less than zero. Far less than zero. His base would have worshipped him even more for that. No way he did it for that reason.

b) The facts show that European countries have given far more than us, so he looked like an idiot for even suggesting that lame explanation.

c) Trump's defenders have all abandoned the argument because they realize how dumb it is.
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That's your opinion. Opinions are not facts. It is also not compelling evidence.

John Herbst, a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine and now the director of the Eurasia Center at the Atlantic Council, told our fact-checking colleagues at the Washington Post that the U.S. “is the largest provider of military aid to Ukraine” and that European countries typically provide the “soft power” to help stabilize nations.

You are correct though, in other contributions, The EU has provided the bulk of aid to Ukraine.

How about Ukraine's corruption and wanting to know how the assistance was going to be spent. You are avoiding that one. Why?
 
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#8,143
#8,143
Mick said:
Trump's FBI?
The bureau’s so-called backdoor searches, long regarded by civil libertarians as a government end-run around warrant requirements, were overly broad, the court found. They appear to have impacted what a judge on the court called “a large number of individuals, including U.S. persons.” On one day in December 2017 alone, the court found, the FBI conducted 6,800 queries of the NSA databases using Social Security numbers.
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America’s FBI . You just picked one year and one case lol .
 
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#8,146
#8,146
37L1 said:
That's your opinion. Opinions are not facts. It is also not compelling evidence.

John Herbst, a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine and now the director of the Eurasia Center at the Atlantic Council, told our fact-checking colleagues at the Washington Post that the U.S. “is the largest provider of military aid to Ukraine” and that European countries typically provide the “soft power” to help stabilize nations.

You are correct though, in other contributions, The EU has provided the bulk of aid to Ukraine.

How about Ukraine's corruption and wanting to know how the assistance was going to be spent. You are avoiding that one. Why?
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There should be plenty of documentation and testimony to support that reason..... if its true.

And it makes no sense. If it were true, why wouldn't Trump have said that from the start? Why did he lie and claim its about making other European countries give more?

He (and you) cannot have it both ways. You cannot start of claiming the delay was for worthy reason A, then when that backfires, insist it was actually for worthy reason B.
 
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#8,147
#8,147
lawgator1 said:
There should be plenty of documentation and testimony to support that reason..... if its true.

And it makes no sense. If it were true, why wouldn't Trump have said that from the start? Why did he lie and claim its about making other European countries give more?

He (and you) cannot have it both ways. You cannot start of claiming the delay was for worthy reason A, then when that backfires, insist it was actually for worthy reason B.
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Has it backfired?

Is any of this evidence or proof beyond a reasonable doubt?
 
#8,149
#8,149
0nelilreb said:
It does however underscore the overreach our secret squirrel agencies become involved in simply because they have the power to do it .
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Lucky the queries are documented and audited. But they probably have another database where it's not.
 
#8,150
#8,150
37L1 said:
Has it backfired?

Is any of this evidence or proof beyond a reasonable doubt?
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Well, for one thing you are now offering worthy reason B (to make sure it was spent wisely).

If worthy reason A (out of protest at European aid being low) was correct, and was the real reason for the delay, why did you and Trump abandon it?

As I say, the fact that he (and you) have offered two alternative worthy reasons is a strong indication that neither is the real reason. That plus Trump blocking testimony from key witnesses on the issue.

Look, you can dance around the facts all you want and conjure up excuses and dubious explanations until the cows come home. You know, though, at the end of the day the facts are going to be that Trump held up the aid so as to pressure the Ukraine into helping him with Biden. That's the truth.

You and Trump are just better off admitting it and buckling in for the ride because the more he denies that was the reason, the greater the pounding he is going to take when it turns out it was.
 
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