The Jarrett Guarantano debate thread...

[Devo182]

Yep. Pruitt and Helton just aren't as smart as you. Knowing that JG and the OL could handle a more pass heavy O... they just chose a losing strategy because they're stupid.

JG couldn't handle what they needed him to do and neither could the OL. JG couldn't make the pre-snap reads and quick decisions to run a quick passing game like Cutcliffe ran with Ainge and virtually no one at WR. The OL could not consistently protect JG for 2.5-3 seconds (not many OL's can do it as consistently as JG needs it done). So JG couldn't do what the OL needed and the OL couldn't do what JG needed... so the coaches were left with that problem.

IF JG improves the OL will look better... and may not improve much at all. If the OL improves then JG will look better... even if he hasn't improved. It was clear from the comments around the spring game that Chaney has recognized the weaknesses of both and is working on improving them both.

No, youre right. Helton and Pruitt showed so much progress and are clearly offensive geniuses and should never be questioned. Running with the #1 worst rushing attack in the league was clearly the best option. Glad you cleared that up with your feels and perceptions of what others may or may not have thought. Im also sure every coach does everything right every time and never makes mistakes. Pruitt would probably even tell you himself he played perfectly optimal offense last year and that was simply our ceiling.

What you still havent explained is how running was the better option when clearly passing was better, despite you not acknowledging it was actually quite efficient. You speak like our passing game was bad or something or maybe that us just your feels since you post zero hard data and 100% feelings. Maybe youre a millenial idk.

 

[Devo182]

Marginal at best. Both staffs gave him low risk responsibilities. They probably hoped and expected him to improve faster.

Nope. You badly exaggerate the play of the Center... but it is OK to throw Johnson under the bus, right? He's not a real Vol is he? His stats aren't "incredible" at all. If he could simply make good pre-snap reads and hit quick timing patterns... he would have doubled his yardage and made the O much better.

Low risk = starting him and having him throw deep? lol that is why we had some of the most deep passing plays in country by attempt. All those dink and dunk passes the jg haters make up out of thin air and can never support with facts.

If the OL had a guy who could read D's and get the ball off like Ainge did the year Cut made Lucas Taylor a 1000 yard receiver.... you'd change yours.

oh you mean 15-2 Stanford QB Chryst? He really showed us what a real winner is capable of with this OL. Or Dormady the year before? Mcbride? Shrout? All those guys clearly exposed that JG is the real problem.

 

[k-town_king]

Low risk = starting him and having him throw deep? lol that is why we had some of the most deep passing plays in country by attempt. All those dink and dunk passes the jg haters make up out of thin air and can never support with facts.


oh you mean 15-2 Stanford QB Chryst? He really showed us what a real winner is capable of with this OL. Or Dormady the year before? Mcbride? Shrout? All those guys clearly exposed that JG is the real problem.

Dude he is trolling hard. Don't waste your breath.

 

[sjt18]

Low risk = starting him and having him throw deep? lol that is why we had some of the most deep passing plays in country by attempt. All those dink and dunk passes the jg haters make up out of thin air and can never support with facts.

I can and have. The vast majority of JG's deep throws were to the sideline. They avoided the middle of the field with him. Throwing to the sideline to receivers like Jennings and Callaway is safe. You give your big, physical receiver an advantage over the corner and minimize how much help a S can provide and more importantly where that help comes from. The proof isn't in the raw stats but in the video. Go back and watch. He seldom threw to the middle of the field at any distance. He threw to the sideline a lot... and it is a significant strength for him.

The dink and dunk isn't a problem especially the quick variety that puts a D on its heels. It is that specific type that JG did not throw often if at all. Hitting check downs and screens along with deep plays to the sideline just isn't enough. It is too easily defended. You have to use the middle of the field. You have to have a QB who can see alignment and pressure pre-snap and know where he's going to be able to hit an open receiver quickly. JG has never demonstrated the ability to do that well or consistently.

oh you mean 15-2 Stanford QB Chryst? He really showed us what a real winner is capable of with this OL.

I said prior to last season that KC wasn't the answer. I took the time to learn the facts by watching every Stanford replay I could find. His decisions were questionable which is why he lost the job. He did some things well at times. One particular play when he hit a hot receiver when he read blitz in his one start... is an example of what I hope JG can learn to do.

Or Dormady the year before?

Playing behind the same OL QD was sacked less than 5 times in his 5 or 6 games... JG was sacked over 30. Without accounting for execution or physical talent, one read the D... the other didn't. QD made mistakes and his efforts to make up for WR failures were mentioned publicly by Jones. In 5 games he threw for 925 yards. JG started 7 games and played in 9... and threw for 997 yds. In games started by QD to include the UGA shutout UT scored 24 ppg. Behind JG they scored 17 ppg to finish that season and 23 ppg in '18. Points... win games. Points reflect a QB's ability to lead the O. QD wasn't a "success"... and JG hasn't been either.

Mcbride? Shrout? All those guys clearly exposed that JG is the real problem.

So you have now burned your straw man. Feel better? JG is a problem... not "the real problem". His weaknesses contributed significantly to the anemic offense... as did the OL's weaknesses. Is the notion of shared blame really that foreign to you?

 

[sjt18]

Dude he is trolling hard. Don't waste your breath.

What was it you said a few weeks ago about someone responding to someone but not responding directly?

Coward. You're wrong. You probably know you're wrong deep down.... and don't have the courage to hang.

 

[sjt18]

No, youre right. Helton and Pruitt showed so much progress and are clearly offensive geniuses and should never be questioned.

Of course they can be questioned... as can JG. But you guys only go crazy when JG is questioned. Everyone else can be blamed for some or all of the problem, reasonably or unreasonably... and you don't say a word.

Running with the #1 worst rushing attack in the league was clearly the best option.

It is if you don't trust your QB to throw more than a limited set of safe plays.

Glad you cleared that up with your feels and perceptions of what others may or may not have thought. Im also sure every coach does everything right every time and never makes mistakes. Pruitt would probably even tell you himself he played perfectly optimal offense last year and that was simply our ceiling.

I would say between your glossy eyed idol blindness... and two successful college coaches... their judgment is quite a bit better than yours.

What you still havent explained is how running was the better option when clearly passing was better, despite you not acknowledging it was actually quite efficient.

Because D's can defend the few things they trusted JG to do and there was more risk in throwing the stuff he had not proven he could do than running and punting and hoping to get a stop.

Do you even listen to yourself? You defend JG at every point as if he is perfect and a master of the QB craft burdened by all these players and coaches that are stupid and incompetent.

They did not put JG in a position to win/lose games for them because they did not trust him and the OL. That's really unavoidable. You can continue in your delusion that they somehow couldn't figure things out as well as you... or you can live with the reality that JG needs A LOT of improvement to become a good, well rounded QB.

You speak like our passing game was bad or something or maybe that us just your feels since you post zero hard data and 100% feelings. Maybe youre a millenial idk.

Far from a millenial. I have socks older than that.

I've posted a lot of "hard data" and have pointed you to the video that completes the story that stats can't tell alone. Here's one for you... in spite of those "great" stats... UT's passing O produced 15 TD's. That was 13th in the SEC and 100th nationally. UT was 13th in scoring O. JG was 11th in passing yds and 12th in TD's in the SEC.

This wasn't just because everyone else including the coaches stank. He was a significant part of the problem. Or maybe you're the millenial considering how the idea of your hero being fallible and blame being something that can be allocated by shares seems to elude you...

 

[Kevinyaheard]

Of course they can be questioned... as can JG. But you guys only go crazy when JG is questioned. Everyone else can be blamed for some or all of the problem, reasonably or unreasonably... and you don't say a word.

It is if you don't trust your QB to throw more than a limited set of safe plays. I would say between your glossy eyed idol blindness... and two successful college coaches... their judgment is quite a bit better than yours.

Because D's can defend the few things they trusted JG to do and there was more risk in throwing the stuff he had not proven he could do than running and punting and hoping to get a stop.

Do you even listen to yourself? You defend JG at every point as if he is perfect and a master of the QB craft burdened by all these players and coaches that are stupid and incompetent.

They did not put JG in a position to win/lose games for them because they did not trust him and the OL. That's really unavoidable. You can continue in your delusion that they somehow couldn't figure things out as well as you... or you can live with the reality that JG needs A LOT of improvement to become a good, well rounded QB.


Far from a millenial. I have socks older than that.

I've posted a lot of "hard data" and have pointed you to the video that completes the story that stats can't tell alone. Here's one for you... in spite of those "great" stats... UT's passing O produced 15 TD's. That was 13th in the SEC and 100th nationally. UT was 13th in scoring O. JG was 11th in passing yds and 12th in TD's in the SEC.

This wasn't just because everyone else including the coaches stank. He was a significant part of the problem. Or maybe you're the millenial considering how the idea of your hero being fallible and blame being something that can be allocated by shares seems to elude you...

I'm more inclined to believe PFF and their highly lauded advanced analytics more than somebody's eye test. I played a little QB in high school (not very well). My problem was I would do very well on non-contact drills, but as soon as I got hit in the mouth, I got trigger shy and my feet got really happy. There is no such thing as a safe deep throw. Throws to the outside, depending on safety placement, can be less likely to be intercepted, but when I think of safe I think of a high probability of completion. That's why yards-per-attempt is such a highly regarded stat among quarterback gurus. Generally speaking, the further you throw the ball, the harder it becomes to complete said pass.

There are multiple factors leading to the problem at hand. That's why the PFF stats are SO AMAZING. They try to rate the player based on the situation he is in. That's the reason why JG is the second highest rated player. They are considering all of the horrible line play, 12.8 drop rate among receivers (3rd worst in SEC), non-existent run game, and the talent gap. This is the supposed score he gets if all of these quarterbacks were in the exact same situation. They are saying if you put him at Georgia starting for the same amount of time with the same players/coaches, they think he does slightly BETTER than Fromm.

I read an analysis of his performance (that I now can't find) that correlated exceptionally well. The more time he got with a clean pocket the better he performed. Literally was that damn simple. What he did against Auburn should give hope to even the most diehard Vols cynic....

 

[WoodsmanVol]

JG is our quarterback. I wish him a super upcoming season and that is that.

 

[sjt18]

I'm more inclined to believe PFF and their highly lauded advanced analytics more than somebody's eye test. I played a little QB in high school (not very well). My problem was I would do very well on non-contact drills, but as soon as I got hit in the mouth, I got trigger shy and my feet got really happy. There is no such thing as a safe deep throw. Throws to the outside, depending on safety placement, can be less likely to be intercepted, but when I think of safe I think of a high probability of completion. That's why yards-per-attempt is such a highly regarded stat among quarterback gurus. Generally speaking, the further you throw the ball, the harder it becomes to complete said pass.

Yeah. There is such a thing as a "deep throw" that's safe. But it is always relative... you're trying too hard to disagree by parsing.

I played TE years ago in a running offense. I understand that a RB (or QB) can make a blocker look awful simply by not setting up a block well. The blocker gets blamed for something that is the fault of the guy with the ball.

There are multiple factors leading to the problem at hand. That's why the PFF stats are SO AMAZING. They try to rate the player based on the situation he is in. That's the reason why JG is the second highest rated player. They are considering all of the horrible line play, 12.8 drop rate among receivers (3rd worst in SEC), non-existent run game, and the talent gap. This is the supposed score he gets if all of these quarterbacks were in the exact same situation. They are saying if you put him at Georgia starting for the same amount of time with the same players/coaches, they think he does slightly BETTER than Fromm.

And every one of those things requires an assumption that the others failed in a vacuum. It is designed to shift blame away from a QB that may well belong to him. You got gun shy in HS... but can't understand how timing and ball location can contribute to a WR dropping a pass?

Definitions also become important. Were UT's receivers awarded a "drop" when making a diving, twisting attempt to catch a misplaced ball or when they're battling a defender on a ball thrown late?

I read an analysis of his performance (that I now can't find) that correlated exceptionally well. The more time he got with a clean pocket the better he performed. Literally was that damn simple. What he did against Auburn should give hope to even the most diehard Vols cynic....

Well... yeah. Any QB who could get 3 or 4 seconds in a clean pocket will perform "better". But that completely evades his issue. His issue is that he doesn't do pre-snap or post snap reads very well. As a result, his decision making is slow. He also hasn't been trusted to execute hot reads. All of that may not show up on PFF's analysis... but contributed heavily to the pressure he got AND the overall ineffectiveness of the offense.

I have never claimed the OL wasn't a significant problem. I'm just saying that JG's decision making though not as obvious has also been a big problem. From the comments during the O&W game and sprinkled here and there... Chaney seems to have drawn that same conclusion.

 

[alltimevol2331]

Bottom line is he will be a great quarterback. Mark my word some couldn’t see talent if it was right in front of them

 

[sjt18]

Bottom line is he will be a great quarterback. Mark my word some couldn’t see talent if it was right in front of them

I see tons of physical talent. The question remains whether he can "get it" from a mental standpoint. Can he process decisions faster? Can he gain the ability to use imagination to anticipate throws? Can he learn to "see" defenses?

Mark my word... some are so shallow that they do not understand how a QB's management of the mental part impacts both his play and that of those around him. It isn't "easy". It is even harder if the OL does have serious problems. But JG has not mastered it to the level you would have expected from a 3rd year player.

 

[Volador]

Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

 

[alltimevol2331]

I see tons of physical talent. The question remains whether he can "get it" from a mental standpoint. Can he process decisions faster? Can he gain the ability to use imagination to anticipate throws? Can he learn to "see" defenses?

Mark my word... some are so shallow that they do not understand how a QB's management of the mental part impacts both his play and that of those around him. It isn't "easy". It is even harder if the OL does have serious problems. But JG has not mastered it to the level you would have expected from a 3rd year player.

Those quick reads are more than just on the qb. For quick reads the receiver has to come off the defenders and at least give the qb a window. I’ve went back and watch several games and plays from last season. Honestly out of all the offensive position the receivers may have been the worse considering what we had and what they were suppose to be. Unless they were going deep they came off the line very lazy and didn’t move. Go back and watch how many quick passes he tried to do. He went to pass and pulled it down because the receiver was still covered up by the defender. I’m all of sports the qb position is one of very few position that if everyone out there with him doesn’t at least try and do somewhat they are suppose to then the qb can look horrible and last year was an example of that.

 

[k-town_king]

I think so. The numbers and data show how good he actually was with the bad situation around him. With improved coaching and support he will have a breakout year and lead us back to relevancy.

The "eyetest" and "feelings" guys won't like this.

 

[Boca Vol]

I've got the popcorn ready!!!!

 

[XknoxvolsX]

I've got the popcorn ready!!!!

Butter too!

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

I certainly hope so. I believe JG has the talent and skill. But it’s been wasted because of the musical chairs of coaching at TN. Hopefully he puts it all together this year and he has a great year. Hopefully the OL and WRs improve as well.

 

[Pride85]

Even I'm not going to touch this one with a 50' pole.

 

[VOLfrombama]

It all depends on our OL. We certainly have some decent skill guys around him

 

[sjt18]

Those quick reads are more than just on the qb. For quick reads the receiver has to come off the defenders and at least give the qb a window. I’ve went back and watch several games and plays from last season. Honestly out of all the offensive position the receivers may have been the worse considering what we had and what they were suppose to be. Unless they were going deep they came off the line very lazy and didn’t move. Go back and watch how many quick passes he tried to do. He went to pass and pulled it down because the receiver was still covered up by the defender. I’m all of sports the qb position is one of very few position that if everyone out there with him doesn’t at least try and do somewhat they are suppose to then the qb can look horrible and last year was an example of that.

It is also the position where a nuanced weakness of the QB himself can make everyone else look horrible. I think last year was an example of BOTH.


Why is it so difficult for some of you to acknowledge his share?

 

[UTSuave’]

No.

 

[Matt2496]

No.

If he has more than .001 seconds to throw the ball, yes.

 

[chargervol]

Is this different than the other PFF adjusted score thread?
Seriously asking, idk.

 

[RDU VOL#14]

JG doesn’t have to win many games for us. He just can’t lose games for us. Take more of a Bama style game manager approach to the offense. Let the skill guys do their thing.

 

[KBVol]

Yeah, all these positive threads only serve to let the “doubters” (I won’t say haters) who have their minds made up and won’t let empirical data/evidence dissuade they from the belief that Jarrett absolutely sucks, bash the hell out of a kid doing his best (which was pretty good most of the time last year despite the dysfunction all around him) to win games for them and their favorite team. I won’t be back in here to witness the carnage from all the usual suspects....you know who you are.