The Keynesian Nightmare Continues...

#227
#227
droski said:
what's your evidence europe has better upward mobility? higher gdp per capita? garbage. less income polarization? so? our rich are richer. that's a bad thing? our poor are not poorer by any metric.
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Many studies have concluded this. Jeremy Rifkin did some fantastic work on this, I believe published in 2004.

The OECD did a detailed study as well. Education in the US was the primary deterent, actually. Well below Denmark, Spain, Australia, Finland, Canada in generational social mobility. Italy and GB still have entrenched aristocracies however.

I should note this is upward mobility. The alarming US statistic was increase in DOWNWARD mobility, actually.
 
#228
#228
droski said:
jesus. now you are quoting "hapiness numbers." why not break out the magic eightball.
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Challenge your assumptions.

As far as I know Bhutan is the only country that has done away with GNP and goes with the Happiness Index as a measure of performance.
 
#229
#229
utgibbs said:
Many studies have concluded this. Jeremy Rifkin did some fantastic work on this, I believe published in 2004.

The OECD did a detailed study as well. Education in the US was the primary deterent, actually. Well below Denmark, Spain, Australia, Finland, Canada in generational social mobility. Italy and GB still have entrenched aristocracies however.

I should note this is upward mobility. The alarming US statistic was increase in DOWNWARD mobility, actually.
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horse****. the poor here are richer than they EVER have been. your argument is akin to arguing that a man making 50K a year with a boss making 100k a year is clearly more unhappy than man making 40K a year with a boss making 70k a year.
 
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#230
#230
utvolpj said:
sadly I doubt he'll leave but keep fighting to turn the US into one of those failures. I'd chip in for a ticket though
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How, exactly, have they failed? By what metric, exactly, are you measuring failure?

Please, I've got to know.
 
#232
#232
droski said:
horse****. the poor here are richer than they EVER have been. your argument is akin to arguing that a man making 50K a year with a boss making 100k a year is clearly more unhappy than man making 40K a year with a boss making 70k a year.
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Not even close to the actual descrepancies, but I know what point you are trying to make.

If you mean, "the poor never had it so good" well, I'm not so sure you understand poverty, or realize the real pervasiveness even within our own country (nevermind over half the world is still under $2 / day).

However, I know where this illusion comes from - it is the technology born from, not an economic system, but from the scientific revolution.
 
#233
#233
utgibbs said:
Not even close to the actual descrepancies, but I know what point you are trying to make.

If you mean, "the poor never had it so good" well, I'm not so sure you understand poverty, or realize the real pervasiveness even within our own country (nevermind over half the world is still under $2 / day).

However, I know where this illusion comes from - it is the technology born from, not an economic system, but from the scientific revolution.
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i see. i don't understand poverty. please explain. this i got to hear.
 
#234
#234
utvolpj said:
my first metric was the level of your support. Historically it follows the same line
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Brilliant. Well played.

I would point you to my last post describing the importance, not of an economic system, but of the scientific revolution.

The scientific revolution, at its core, was to stop accepting the world at faith and on myth and actually looking and measuring the real world outside your front door.

You would do well to try it out. ;)
 
#236
#236
utgibbs said:
I think there is a general lack of understand that poverty is actually pervasive in this country.
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what what metric is it pervasive? income disparities? you think 50 years ago 95% of this country could afford cable or a cell phone?
 
#237
#237
utgibbs said:
I think there is a general lack of understand that poverty is actually pervasive in this country.
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the US poor are nowhere close to the poor in other countries. To compare our poverty levels to most others is useless
 
#238
#238
utgibbs said:
You seem to be saying that it's only because the richest country in the world has so many damn poor people that the stats are skewed.

Well, I rest my case.

Shall we look to Bhutan and adopt their model of GNP? I can't say I wouldn't approve heartily.
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I am absolutely saying that is true. It's stupid to pretend that it's because of some governmental failure, aside from overpaying for nothing and welfare generational stupidity.

I don't care how you approve of anything. We have created a welfare class and mindset in our country and it absolutely skews each and every per capita number in America. Pretending that it's is anything but a government failure is stupid.

I'm all for you resting your case. You're now down the road to whining about the "plight" of the broke in America without dealing with the root causes. Don't waste your air or time.
 
#239
#239
utgibbs said:
I think there is a general lack of understand that poverty is actually pervasive in this country.
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and the liberal clowns that grew and perpetuate the issue for votes act like it's because those who generate GDP in America don't give away enough money. It's just a blatant lie.
 
#240
#240
utgibbs said:
Many studies have concluded this. Jeremy Rifkin did some fantastic work on this, I believe published in 2004.

The OECD did a detailed study as well. Education in the US was the primary deterent, actually. Well below Denmark, Spain, Australia, Finland, Canada in generational social mobility. Italy and GB still have entrenched aristocracies however.

I should note this is upward mobility. The alarming US statistic was increase in DOWNWARD mobility, actually.
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presumably you understand the problems with education in America. Unionized garbage, ghetto wastelands, not necessary to attain gub'ment program cheese, etc, etc, etc.
 
#241
#241
utgibbs said:
Challenge your assumptions.

As far as I know Bhutan is the only country that has done away with GNP and goes with the Happiness Index as a measure of performance.
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Bhutan has never compiled a GNP, Gross National Happiness has always been the norm.

Another thing is that Bhutan isn't run by a bunch of Ivy League social planners either, although they are thinking of banning MTV!
 
#242
#242
droski said:
what what metric is it pervasive? income disparities? you think 50 years ago 95% of this country could afford cable or a cell phone?
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Are you really suggesting this? going here?

That's like asking why couldn't Plato put lighting in his cave.....

Moreover, has cable and cell phones made us better, faster, stronger?

David Palmer happens, man. David Palmer happens.
 
#243
#243
gsvol said:
Bhutan has never compiled a GNP, Gross National Happiness has always been the norm.

Another thing is that Bhutan isn't run by a bunch of Ivy League social planners either, although they are thinking of banning MTV!
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I thought it was TV full stop.

It's too bad they're in the mountains. Takes a lot longer to boil pasta.
 
#244
#244
utgibbs said:
Are you really suggesting this? going here?

That's like asking why couldn't Plato put lighting in his cave.....

Moreover, has cable and cell phones made us better, faster, stronger?
David Palmer happens, man. David Palmer happens.
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Yes.
 
#245
#245
utgibbs said:
Are you really suggesting this? going here?

That's like asking why couldn't Plato put lighting in his cave.....

Moreover, has cable and cell phones made us better, faster, stronger?

David Palmer happens, man. David Palmer happens.
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this is a really stupid response.

You apparently have no idea what happened with the David Palmer game either. Stick to football, even though you wouldn't know one if it hit you between the eyes, because you're better there than in the world of econ and finance.
 
#247
#247
utgibbs said:
Are you really suggesting this? going here?

That's like asking why couldn't Plato put lighting in his cave.....

Moreover, has cable and cell phones made us better, faster, stronger?

David Palmer happens, man. David Palmer happens.
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you didn't answer the question. by what metric is it pervasive?

and i point out cell phones and cable because those are discretionary purchases. as are flatscreen tvs and xboxes. back in the day you were considered in poverty if AT BEST all you could afford was housing and food, usually that metric meant you couldn't afford either. 90+% of the country having cable indicates putting food on the table is not a problem. now your poor because you make 400K less than the ceo of general motors.
 
#248
#248
utgibbs said:
Cool, just wanted to make sure.

I tell you, there ain't nothing better than watching Jack Baurer kick azz commercial free on a DVD.

Thank you ancestors and scientific revolution!
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Business and information applications are what I'm referring to rather than watching The Hills or some 14 year old girl texting non-stop.
 
#249
#249
droski said:
you didn't answer the question. by what metric is it pervasive?

and i point out cell phones and cable because those are discretionary purchases. as are flatscreen tvs and xboxes. back in the day you were considered in poverty if AT BEST all you could afford was housing and food, usually that metric meant you couldn't afford either. 90+% of the country having cable indicates putting food on the table is not a problem. now your poor because you make 400K less than the ceo of general motors.
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70,000 years ago people were making their own jewelry and painting pictures on cave walls.

Seems like they had a surplus....

Just sayin'.

PS - if you are making 400K less than the CEO of GM (a failed company) you are still in the top 0.1% of the earners in the US.

Just sayin' that ain't poverty.

I'm not sure if it can get any more ridiculous than: people aren't poor now because they have access to cable and cell phones (except they don't, actually).

Would you like to reconsider your understanding of poverty?
 
#250
#250
CSpindizzy said:
Business and information applications are what I'm referring to rather than watching The Hills or some 14 year old girl texting non-stop.
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How has that access to business information helped given the system has needed trillion dollar inputs of liquidity to keep from imploding?

I love technology. I think the Hubble Space Telescope is the only thing of worth this culture has produced in a very long time.

Well, excepting Jack Bauer of course.
 
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