The Keynesian Nightmare Continues...

#326
#326
utgibbs said:
Capitalism is a zero-sum game. It takes losers to make winners.
Click to expand...

sweet jesus. if capitalism is a zero sum game how come we've had positive GDP growth for 68 out of the last 70 years. you can't seriously believe that. and who pray tell have been the losers?
 
#328
#328
utgibbs said:
Capitalism is a zero-sum game. It takes losers to make winners. In addition, it's currently running at $500trillion + in "derivative" economy vs $50trillion in actual goods and services.

I don't know where you're copying this, but it's clear that you have no idea regarding derivative market value vs. underlying collateral value. Surely you know that huge swaths of derivative market never even begin to deal with the underlying collateral.

I think that's the definition of zero-sum game.

how on earth can it be a zero sum game under one policy and not under the other. One of those philosophies believes in manipulation of M1, M2 and M3, which means that there can be nominal wealth added to the economy. The other, that believes in fixed capital is absolutely the definition of zero sum.

I think this "cartel" notion of labor unions is hogwash. Eight hour work day, suspension of child labor, health and safety laws, etc don't allow the "natural" conditions to be set low. Unions had a lot to do with all of this and more.

Really? I'm shocked that you'd be arguing for full employment and against the idea that markets should be pricing labor. Shocked I say. Thank goodness we have those unions in this the information age. How the hell else would we find out about all those dastardly capitalists taking advantage of employees by paying them for their overpriced work?

As for $100 / hour - I would rather guarantee a minimum income to every citizen.

that's because you prefer a self destructive system that overprices worthlessness, amongst other massive overpricing errors.

PS - should have complimented you on Chile knowledge.
Click to expand...
see bold.
 
#329
#329
droski said:
sweet jesus. if capitalism is a zero sum game how come we've had positive GDP growth for 68 out of the last 70 years. you can't seriously believe that. and who pray tell have been the losers?
Click to expand...

come on. Some people are wealthy, BECAUSE others are poor. No viable alternative explanation. Hell, Laura Tyson says it all the time, so it must be true.
 
#330
#330
sjt18 said:
Does anyone besides me that people like gibbs cling to such a hopelessly failed ideology with the kind of religious fervor that would make the JW's or Hamas proud?

I mean seriously. Here we stand on the precipice of a real, catastrophic economic collapse. Our knees are buckling under the weight of gov't debt and gov't induced inefficiencies in the economy. But he keeps the faith. It does not matter that central economic planning has never worked even on a small scale... not even on a company scale bigger than a sole proprietorship... he insists that today's liberals are smart enough to make it work even in a system as complex as the US economy.

How does this happen? Are professors really that convincing now? If so, Goebbels would be impressed.
Click to expand...

SJT,

We stand on a precipice where the regulatory environment was eroded to such a degree (and let's definitely set Clinton beside Bush here) that our entire banking system is illegitimate.

The force that has forestalled this catastrophe for now are the government institutions. THE SYSTEM IS ILLEGITIMATE. One trillion + 800BN speak to the truth of what I say.

If I have an ideology, I would say it is pluralism: human needs change, things have to change with that.

Right now, we need to rethink EVERYTHING. Absolutely everything. It is a daunting task.

In order to do that though, we have to look at the real world and what works. Right now there is an prevalent ideology that government does nothing well or efficient compared to private enterprise. That is simply, absolutely, and unambiguously not true.
 
#331
#331
you seem to have forgotten the 1 trillion in G hasn't helped the economy in the slightest. where's the massive employment growth we should be seeing with the stimulus if G is truly the answer to all our problems?
 
#332
#332
I don't see how capitalism is a zero-sum game. Everyone has an opportunity to create wealth through the creation of goods or services... Who is losing when things are being created?
 
#333
#333
utgibbs said:
SJT,

We stand on a precipice where the regulatory environment was eroded to such a degree (and let's definitely set Clinton beside Bush here) that our entire banking system is illegitimate.

The force that has forestalled this catastrophe for now are the government institutions. THE SYSTEM IS ILLEGITIMATE. One trillion + 800BN speak to the truth of what I say.

If I have an ideology, I would say it is pluralism: human needs change, things have to change with that.

Right now, we need to rethink EVERYTHING. Absolutely everything. It is a daunting task.

In order to do that though, we have to look at the real world and what works. Right now there is an prevalent ideology that government does nothing well or efficient compared to private enterprise. That is simply, absolutely, and unambiguously not true.
Click to expand...

if you're an educator, please tell me who pays your salary so I can be sure to avoid sending my son there.
 
#334
#334
utgibbs said:
Right now there is an prevalent ideology that government does nothing well or efficient compared to private enterprise. That is simply, absolutely, and unambiguously not true.
Click to expand...

I am interested to know what the gov't does well that isn't a Constitutional power and couldn't be done by private companies.
 
#335
#335
the working man! He's getting screwed by the capitalist pigs because he's making 300K less than his manager!
 
#336
#336
utgibbs said:
Capitalism is a zero-sum game. It takes losers to make winners. In addition, it's currently running at $500trillion + in "derivative" economy vs $50trillion in actual goods and services.

I think that's the definition of zero-sum game.

I think this "cartel" notion of labor unions is hogwash. Eight hour work day, suspension of child labor, health and safety laws, etc don't allow the "natural" conditions to be set low. Unions had a lot to do with all of this and more.

As for $100 / hour - I would rather guarantee a minimum income to every citizen.

PS - should have complimented you on Chile knowledge.
Click to expand...

You, my friend, need an economic dictionary.

A zero sum game is when one person's success comes at the expense of another. Like poker. My win comes at your loss. Capitalism is by definition the opposite of a zero sum game. When I win, it's because others win by freely engaging with me. For instance, if I buy a gallon of gasoline, Chevron and I both win. Chevron gets $3 which they valued more than the gallon of gasoline, and I got a gallon of gasoline that I valued more than my $3.

The same goes for employment. When I take a job, no matter how awful conditions may be, I am choosing to work their because the wage > my time + working conditions + best alternative job.

Zero sum only comes into play when government force is involved. For instance, Uncle Sam takes from my wages to pay for someone's social security benefit. I lose, they win.

A cartel by definition is suppliers colluding to set prices of goods and services. Unions are cartels who supply labor, and they set the price accordingly. You may say labor unions are different than OPEC, but no matter what you say they are still cartels.
 
Last edited:
#337
#337
IPorange said:
I don't see how capitalism is a zero-sum game. Everyone has an opportunity to create wealth through the creation of goods or services... Who is losing when things are being created?
Click to expand...

guvment'

At least those that want a dependent faction.
 
#338
#338
utgibbs said:
SJT,

We stand on a precipice where the regulatory environment was eroded to such a degree (and let's definitely set Clinton beside Bush here) that our entire banking system is illegitimate.

The force that has forestalled this catastrophe for now are the government institutions. THE SYSTEM IS ILLEGITIMATE. One trillion + 800BN speak to the truth of what I say.

If I have an ideology, I would say it is pluralism: human needs change, things have to change with that.

Right now, we need to rethink EVERYTHING. Absolutely everything. It is a daunting task.

In order to do that though, we have to look at the real world and what works. Right now there is an prevalent ideology that government does nothing well or efficient compared to private enterprise. That is simply, absolutely, and unambiguously not true.
Click to expand...

Don't pretend you want anything rethought. You want socialism. Couching it as pluralism is semantics. You believe in governmental solutions over market rather than market solutions with diligent third party governance. You've tried everything in your power to pretend that multitudes of nations have flourished under central economies, but the reality is that you are dead wrong. All have transitioned to a mixed, market driven economy because it accounts for the human element and leverages individual talents. Your economic knowledge clearly lacks so you make these gigantic leaps in logic to support the collective view, but you've done nothing to validate any of it save some graphs that are all attributable to our market economy with its room to grow. The private sector in America has driven the world economy and technology to unbelievable heights and you want to try and attribute that to some sort of Keynesian policy of government planning and spending, which is absurd.
 
#339
#339
BigPapaVol said:
The private sector in America has driven the world economy and technology to unbelievable heights and you want to try and attribute that to some sort of Keynesian policy of government planning and spending, which is absurd.
Click to expand...

gov't spending from 80 years ago that by every metric failed miserably.
 
#340
#340
nbakerld said:
You, my friend, need an economic dictionary.

A zero sum game is when one person's success comes at the expense of another. Like poker. My win comes at your loss. Capitalism is by definition the opposite of a zero sum game. When I win, it's because others win by freely engaging with me. For instance, if I buy a gallon of gasoline, Chevron and I both win. Chevron gets $3 which they valued more than the gallon of gasoline, and I got a gallon of gasoline that I valued more than my $3.

The same goes for employment. When I take a job, no matter how awful conditions may be, I am choosing to work their because the wage > my time + working conditions + best alternative job.

Zero sum only comes into play when government force is involved. For instance, Uncle Sam takes from my wages to pay for someone's social security benefit. I lose, they win.

A cartel by definition is suppliers colluding to set prices of goods and services. Unions are cartels of whose good is labor, and they set the price accordingly. You may say labor unions are different than OPEC, but no matter what you say they are still cartels.
Click to expand...

Good post. You said it much better than I could.
 
#342
#342
nbakerld said:
You, my friend, need an economic dictionary.

A zero sum game is when one person's success comes at the expense of another. Like poker. My win comes at your loss. Capitalism is by definition the opposite of a zero sum game. When I win, it's because others win by freely engaging with me. For instance, if I buy a gallon of gasoline, Chevron and I both win. Chevron gets $3 which they valued more than the gallon of gasoline, and I got a gallon of gasoline that I valued more than my $3.

technically, I don't have to value something more to pay for it. I simply have to view the two as being of equal value. Chevron benefits because they can create my idea of value for less than I am willing to pay for it.

The same goes for employment. When I take a job, no matter how awful conditions may be, I am choosing to work their because the wage > my time + working conditions + best alternative job.

absolutely spot on. All of the contrary arguments that continue to support labor unions are simply emotional pleas for more money for all.

Zero sum only comes into play when government force is involved. For instance, Uncle Sam takes from my wages to pay for someone's social security benefit. I lose, they win.

zero sum only truly exists in the instance of absolute fixed capital base, which is simply ridiculous.

A cartel by definition is suppliers colluding to set prices of goods and services. Unions are cartels who supply labor, and they set the price accordingly. You may say labor unions are different than OPEC, but no matter what you say they are still cartels.
Click to expand...

see bold.

I like the summation.
 
#343
#343
nbakerld said:
Thanks for the encouragement. I'd love to teach Econ some day, but I'm not sure I wanna do a Phd program.
Click to expand...

PhD programs aren't really that bad and you can typically do them on your own schedule. Takes away free time for several years, but if higher education is your route, it's not that bad a sacrifice.
 
#344
#344
nbakerld said:
Thanks for the encouragement. I'd love to teach Econ some day, but I'm not sure I wanna do a Phd program.
Click to expand...

please consider it. If gibbs is an example of the tripe that's currently being fed into college students, folks like you are desperately needed.
 
#346
#346
BigPapaVol said:
PhD programs aren't really that bad and you can typically do them on your own schedule. Takes away free time for several years, but if higher education is your route, it's not that bad a sacrifice.
Click to expand...

Is that the route you took? Tell me, pleas.e
 
#348
#348
nbakerld said:
Thanks. Disagreement on the technicality. Why would you drive to Chevron, pump gas, and pay $3 for something you value exactly at $3?
Click to expand...

because it costs you exactly 3 dollars and it's a need. The alternative would be bypassing the joint and walking. In fact, I'd overpay for gas because I can and am unwilling to deal with the hassle of doing without. Human psychology makes for a lot of interesting theories in economics. Price elasticity is nothing more than guessing about human psyche in purchasing, but it actually changes daily.
 
#349
#349
MG1968 said:
please consider it. If gibbs is an example of the tripe that's currently being fed into college students, folks like you are desperately needed.
Click to expand...

i was an economics major at one of the most liberal schools in the country and I assure you this garbage wasn't taught as fact there. except when laura tyson came for a guest lecture. . .
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top