The murder of Ahmaud Arbery

#976
#976
bamawriter said:
The evidence was pretty clear that Zimmerman was on his way back to his vehicle when Martin confronted him. When the 911 dispatcher told him "we don't need you to [follow the suspect]", Zimmerman's responded "Okay."
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He was in his car when that conversation happened, *before* he exited and the confrontation happened.

He was on his way back to the car because he realized he was biting off more than he could chew trying to play rent-a-cop.
 
#977
#977
Chris4Vols22 said:
@Rickyvol77 I gotta say that the points you're trying to make entirely ride on the assumption that the runner just up and decided to attack the gunman without provocation. The evidence we have now, as weak as it is, just doesn't support that assumption.
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I agree that cases like this are for the courts to decide, but i always like discussing the legal/social discussion points on incidents like this.

If i were a prosecutor, i'd harp on trying to prove the weakest part of the case which would be the "detaining/following" part which may go against the GA law for its version of false imprisonment. I just believe legally the initial DA assessment was right that they legally were carrying guns under the law, and the son legally had a right to self-defense from the assault on the son. The detaining part is the "weakest" part of the scenario. Other than that everything else is civil (wrongful death claim by family , etc)
 
#978
#978
Rickyvol77 said:
In this case, how can you prove what the suspect was "feeling"? It's an assumption.
What if he was feeling like "oh sh*t, the police are coming to arrest me, i've got to try to take this dude out"

You can only go based on the eyewitness, forensic, and video evidence
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It's reasonable to assume that being ordered to stop by two armed men who are clearly not law enforcement while on a public road would make one feel threatened for their life. What's unreasonable is the assumption that this man was guilty of something, and thus needed to be detained. They had no legal right to detain him. If they had simply followed him without approaching, they still would have been helping the police. The biggest failure IMO is when the men decided they had the authority to approach him. That is what touched off everything.

Man, I'm not even a lawyer, but I could write the prosecutor's strategy for this case blindfolded. Any prosecutor that can't get manslaughter charges isn't worth his salt IMO.
 
#979
#979
DinkinFlicka said:
You are at it again with your revisionist ********. He was inside his car, on the phone with police, and told not to follow him. It must be exhausting and morally corrosive to just sit here and spew so much false information to rationalize your warped view.

You probably lie to your litter too so it's no surprise they follow along more easily.
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The bold is incorrect. He was on foot by that point in the call.
 
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#980
#980
Rickyvol77 said:
The DA read a pretty good understanding of the belief they had the right. I know you will say "well they used to work for the DA" and i get that, but it's not as clear cut as you think.
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I'm just using common sense. If everyone did that, we'd have a lot less problems.
 
#981
#981
TheDeeble said:
They had opportunity to do so before the physical altercation.

If they intended to shoot him, why wouldn't they do it in a much less risky scenario? If there is intent to shoot someone, they wouldn't wait till the guy is trying to wrestle the gun away.


I agree. Or they could have just followed.
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Their intent may have been to scare, detain, intimidate, whatever. The means they chose to do that in a 2 on 1 situation, bearing arms, makes all the difference in the results of the situation. The victim had no legal obligation to allow two citizens to threaten him or detain him. He had no obligations to answer any questions of interrogation by these two private citizens. They could have easily just maintained his location to authorities and allowed them to do their job. They could have physically overtook the suspect without bearing arms and held him for police.
 
#982
#982
DinkinFlicka said:
You are at it again with your revisionist ********. He was inside his car, on the phone with police, and told not to follow him. It must be exhausting and morally corrosive to just sit here and spew so much false information to rationalize your warped view.

You probably lie to your litter too so it's no surprise they follow along more easily.
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he never made it to his car, might want to study up some and educate yourself on something other than fruity cocktails. The eyewitness corroborated the location of where the beating occurred


After telling the police dispatcher that Martin "ran",[160] Zimmerman left his vehicle on Twin Trees and walked down the sidewalk between Twin Trees and Retreat View Circle to determine his location and ascertain in which direction Martin had fled.[154][161] The dispatcher asked if Zimmerman was following Martin, and Zimmerman replied "Yeah." Then the dispatcher said, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replied with "OK" and stated that Martin got away.[160] After a discussion about where Zimmerman would meet police, the call ended, and Zimmerman told investigators he was returning to his vehicle after locating an address on Retreat View Circle when Martin approached him from his left rear and confronted him.[154][155] According to Zimmerman, Martin then punched him in the face, knocking him down, and began beating his head against the sidewalk.[154][155] Zimmerman said he called out for help while being beaten, and at one point Martin covered his mouth to muffle the screams.[154][155] According to Zimmerman's father, during the struggle while Martin was on top of Zimmerman, Martin saw the gun Zimmerman was carrying and said something to the effect of "You're gonna die now" or "You're gonna die tonight" and continued to beat Zimmerman.[153] Zimmerman and Martin struggled over the gun, and Zimmerman shot Martin once in the chest at close range. Zimmerman told police he shot Martin in self-defense.[154][155][156][Note 8]
 
#983
#983
Matt2496 said:
I haven't seen any direct evidence that race was involved with this. All I've read is that the 2 men saw someone peeking through the window of a house and started following him in their truck.
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News reports don't even support the "saw someone peeking through the window" claim.
 
#984
#984
Rickyvol77 said:
I agree that cases like this are for the courts to decide, but i always like discussing the legal/social discussion points on incidents like this.

If i were a prosecutor, i'd harp on trying to prove the weakest part of the case which would be the "detaining/following" part which may go against the GA law for its version of false imprisonment. I just believe legally the initial DA assessment was right that they legally were carrying guns under the law, and the son legally had a right to self-defense from the assault on the son. The detaining part is the "weakest" part of the scenario. Other than that everything else is civil (wrongful death claim by family , etc)
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I may not be understanding you here. Are you saying the argument that these guys tried to illegally detain the runner is weak? If so, I highly disagree.
 
#986
#986
Rickyvol77 said:
I agree that cases like this are for the courts to decide, but i always like discussing the legal/social discussion points on incidents like this.

If i were a prosecutor, i'd harp on trying to prove the weakest part of the case which would be the "detaining/following" part which may go against the GA law for its version of false imprisonment. I just believe legally the initial DA assessment was right that they legally were carrying guns under the law, and the son legally had a right to self-defense from the assault on the son. The detaining part is the "weakest" part of the scenario. Other than that everything else is civil (wrongful death claim by family , etc)
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It is definitely the weakest point by way of the DA's statement being false. The DA's memo said they had "immediate knowledge" of a "burglary." There is nothing in their statements to law enforcement that even remotely suggest that they witnessed a burglary. At most they witnessed a trespass, a crime of which they could not possibly have "immediate knowledge" given that it wasn't their property.
 
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#987
#987
Chris4Vols22 said:
I may not be understanding you here. Are you saying the argument that these guys tried to illegally detain the runner is weak? If so, I highly disagree.
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I am saying that if i was a prosecutor that was looking for a conviction on these two, that is the part i would focus on, because legally that is a lot weaker based on the facts then i shot this guy because he punched me and tried to take my gun
 
#989
#989
Rickyvol77 said:
I am saying that if i was a prosecutor that was looking for a conviction on these two, that is the part i would focus on, because legally that is a lot weaker based on the facts then i shot this guy because he punched me and tried to take my gun
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Oh OK, I see. Yeah, I don't think that point will be debated very much. I would be interested to see how it works with GAs false imprisonment laws. Is there such thing as attempted false imprisonment?
 
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#990
#990
TheDeeble said:
See earlier response. I'm not trying to make a statement of guilt or innocence with that post. I was replying to dink suggesting he was going to be shot whether or not he attempted to take the gun away from the guy in the truck.

If they intended to shoot him they wouldn't have called the cops. I can imagine how that conversation would go if there had been no physical altercation.

Cops: So you called us.
Guy: yep.
Cops: So why'd you shoot him before we got here?
Guy: ................
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…."Uh, he didn't like that we had guns on him, and had been chasing him, and I jumped out and went toward him with my gun, and he didn't have one, so he tried to take one of ours and we felt threatened...."
 
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#991
#991
Chris4Vols22 said:
Oh OK, I see. Yeah, I don't think that point will be debated very much. I would be interested to see how it works with GAs false imprisonment laws. Is there such thing as attempted false imprisonment?
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If it was in TN, the charge would be attempted kidnapping.
 
#992
#992
DinkinFlicka said:
It certainly takes a small leap of assumption since telepathy isn't a thing, but the resounding volume of discussion about race related to this incident speaks for itself.
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I think these 2 men are idiots. I think what these men did was completely horrible, evil, and uncalled for. These men wouldn't want me on the jury.

With that said, I haven't seen any evidence that race was involved with this. These 2 men were looking for trouble and I honestly don't think race would've mattered here.
 
#993
#993
Chiming in late, but even if the guy was acting suspiciously it was non violent in nature. We have a real problem on on our hands when citizens take it upon themselves to investigate and detain others.
 
#994
#994
Rickyvol77 said:
he never made it to his car, might want to study up some and educate yourself on something other than fruity cocktails. The eyewitness corroborated the location of where the beating occurred


After telling the police dispatcher that Martin "ran",[160] Zimmerman left his vehicle on Twin Trees and walked down the sidewalk between Twin Trees and Retreat View Circle to determine his location and ascertain in which direction Martin had fled.[154][161] The dispatcher asked if Zimmerman was following Martin, and Zimmerman replied "Yeah." Then the dispatcher said, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replied with "OK" and stated that Martin got away.[160] After a discussion about where Zimmerman would meet police, the call ended, and Zimmerman told investigators he was returning to his vehicle after locating an address on Retreat View Circle when Martin approached him from his left rear and confronted him.[154][155] According to Zimmerman, Martin then punched him in the face, knocking him down, and began beating his head against the sidewalk.[154][155] Zimmerman said he called out for help while being beaten, and at one point Martin covered his mouth to muffle the screams.[154][155] According to Zimmerman's father, during the struggle while Martin was on top of Zimmerman, Martin saw the gun Zimmerman was carrying and said something to the effect of "You're gonna die now" or "You're gonna die tonight" and continued to beat Zimmerman.[153] Zimmerman and Martin struggled over the gun, and Zimmerman shot Martin once in the chest at close range. Zimmerman told police he shot Martin in self-defense.[154][155][156][Note 8]
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I can concede the phone call didn't end inside the car.

There's still that 4 minutes between "we don't need you to do that" and the actual fight that is shrouded by lack of witnesses and phone call times. It's highly doubtful Zimm B lined for his car as soon as he was told that pursuit wasn't necessary.

Ergo, he doesn't go sniffing for trouble, someone doesn't die. Same with these two Rickies and Arbery.
 
#995
#995
Also, a truck with 2 armed guys standing in it, and you run right towards it?

How brain-dead must one be to do something like that?

So much stupidity to go around.
 
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#996
#996
lawgator1 said:
Chiming in late, but even if the guy was acting suspiciously it was non violent in nature. We have a real problem on on our hands when citizens take it upon themselves to investigate and detain others.
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Citizen's arrests exist for a reason. But they are also tightly defined for a reason. There is no way that these yahoos had grounds for a citizen's arrest.
 
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#997
#997
Chris4Vols22 said:
Oh OK, I see. Yeah, I don't think that point will be debated very much. I would be interested to see how it works with GAs false imprisonment laws. Is there such thing as attempted false imprisonment?
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In Tennessee it's usually used in the place of kidnapping for situations where someone holds someone against their will inside an apartment at gunpoint (usually domestic situations). Sometimes its used as an enhancement for other crimes (i.e. bank robbery but i held 20 people at gunpoint and wouldnt let them leave)
 
#998
#998
Matt2496 said:
Also, a truck with 2 armed guys standing in it, and you run right towards it?

How brain-dead must one be to do something like that?

So much stupidity to go around.
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The reports I've seen say he was regular runner out doing his routine and was followed and cut off by the gunmen.
 
#999
#999
DinkinFlicka said:
You are at it again with your revisionist ********. He was inside his car, on the phone with police, and told not to follow him. It must be exhausting and morally corrosive to just sit here and spew so much false information to rationalize your warped view.

You probably lie to your litter too so it's no surprise they follow along more easily.
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JMO, but the fact he was told not to follow yet chose to anyway should have made a case for involuntary manslaughter.
 
#1,000
#1,000
bamawriter said:
If it was in TN, the charge would be attempted kidnapping.
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In GA, if the victim had been armed, and shot either or both of the two armed men, whether they were pointing at him or not, he would be acquitted on self-defense. Probably no trial. It is reasonable to assume that anyone approaching you with weapon drawn, regardless of which way it is pointing (it can be easily re-directed), intends to cause you harm. No different than a cop dropping a perp who is going for a gun in their waste band. The mere action creates the legal intent.
 
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