The Next Bailout

#28
#28
I've put two through to the bachelor's degrees. One went to UTK and had the Hope and University Scholarships and did a year abroad in Europe. Graduated Summa Cum Laude and had less than 5k in debt when she graduated. Yes, I paid part of her living expenses but she also worked part time.

The second one went to NYU, the most expensive public college in the nation, but she earned an AFROTC Scholarship and received additional scholarships from NYU. Oh, and she also worked while going to school as well. She graduated last June with no debt and was commissioned into the AF. Not sure what everyone is complaining about.
 
#30
#30
In-state, public universities should be affordable with some part-time work while in school.

The example above with 52K in student loans for a 4 year degree is someone that isn't doing it right.

It's like having a car with a $500/month payment and complaining when you could be driving a decent car for transportation with no or little payment.
 
#31
#31
YorkVol said:
I've put two through to the bachelor's degrees. One went to UTK and had the Hope and University Scholarships and did a year abroad in Europe. Graduated Summa Cum Laude and had less than 5k in debt when she graduated. Yes, I paid part of her living expenses but she also worked part time.

The second one went to NYU, the most expensive public college in the nation, but she earned an AFROTC Scholarship and received additional scholarships from NYU. Oh, and she also worked while going to school as well. She graduated last June with no debt and was commissioned into the AF. Not sure what everyone is complaining about.
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Sounds like you've produced some extremely high quality offspring, and I mean that genuinely. But it doesn't address the issue.

The inflation rate of tuition over the last couple decades has been incredible. My dad went to Wright State in the late 60's when the Pell grant covered about two thirds of a student's tuition, on average (though he attended on the GI bill). It covers barely half that now.

Besides, there are only so many ROTC slots open and so many scholarships to go around; on top of that, with the usual higher ed. enrollment during economic downturns, there is even more competition for that 'free' money.

I think the big picture issue is one that is related to the rest of education -- we live in a culture where getting at least a two year degree is the expected norm, but the entire system is still designed around a society that sent only a relatively small chunk of its people to colleges and universities.
 
#32
#32
Well, at least Obama was always for the lower interest rate.

Last week Romney was against it, although this week he is for it.
 
#33
#33
But people also choose to go to schools they can't afford and live in an apartment they can't afford while driving a car they can't afford and not working - all financed with student loans.

At least 1/2 of our students work and attend part-time to full-time. It isn't easy but I can tell you that they take their education more seriously than a 18 year old that is off at some school, living in an apartment or frat house and partying like crazy.

Tuition has gone up for sure - partially because state funding has declined. But it's a two-way street. Someone does not have to ring up mounds of debt to attend college.
 
#34
#34
lawgator1 said:
Well, at least Obama was always for the lower interest rate.

Last week Romney was against it, although this week he is for it.
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Thought Obama passed on the vote back in 2007? If he voted for it back then he voted for a plan that would automatically double the rate now - that was part of the legislation passed by a Dem House and Senate. Typical kick the can down the road approach.
 
#35
#35
I have $7k in debt from school. Don't regret it, and don't really care to be forgiven. It was pretty much beer money for when I could still drink beer without being completely miserable the next day.

Agree VBH, if you have greater than $20k and you didn't get a professional degree, you are doing it wrong. You were an adult when you signed the line, nobody forced you.

(edit: had $7k in debt...I'm a year in and it's half way paid off. Not really sweating it.)
 
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#36
#36
volinbham said:
Thought Obama passed on the vote back in 2007? If he voted for it back then he voted for a plan that would automatically double the rate now - that was part of the legislation passed by a Dem House and Senate. Typical kick the can down the road approach.
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I do believe he was on the commitee that drew up that bill.....and THEN did not show up for the vote.
 
#37
#37
volinbham said:
In-state, public universities should be affordable with some part-time work while in school.

The example above with 52K in student loans for a 4 year degree is someone that isn't doing it right.

It's like having a car with a $500/month payment and complaining when you could be driving a decent car for transportation with no or little payment.
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There's a difference, though, when that more expensive education should (hopefully) pay dividends in the future, either by diploma prestige, skills, networking, social capital, etc.

The idea of graduating with no debt and working one's way through college is dead and gone. Being able to work part-time is a must for me, which is why I chose to attend a middling commuter school. Would have loved to have been in Corvallis, but the city virtually doesn't exist outside of the university there, so finding employment there is incredibly tough. Nearly every single person I've ever met there either attends on scholarship or mommy and daddy's dime.

So here I've been, scraping together what I've been able to from various jobs over the years in order to pay my tuition, I've relied heavily on public transportation and lived cheaply as possible. Even when I was at Office Depot making $10/hour and commission, it still wouldn't have been enough to cover both tuition and cost of living.

So for a large majority of people, debt is the only way to get anywhere beyond community college.
 
#38
#38
volinbham said:
But people also choose to go to schools they can't afford and live in an apartment they can't afford while driving a car they can't afford and not working - all financed with student loans.

At least 1/2 of our students work and attend part-time to full-time. It isn't easy but I can tell you that they take their education more seriously than a 18 year old that is off at some school, living in an apartment or frat house and partying like crazy.

Tuition has gone up for sure - partially because state funding has declined. But it's a two-way street. Someone does not have to ring up mounds of debt to attend college.
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When I graduate, which should be shortly here, I will have a decent chunk of debt, but nowhere near that $28k average. I have to think that a big, big reason for that average is private for-profit universities that will accept anyone but charge a mint.
 
#39
#39
milohimself said:
There's a difference, though, when that more expensive education should (hopefully) pay dividends in the future, either by diploma prestige, skills, networking, social capital, etc.

The idea of graduating with no debt and working one's way through college is dead and gone. Being able to work part-time is a must for me, which is why I chose to attend a middling commuter school. Would have loved to have been in Corvallis, but the city virtually doesn't exist outside of the university there, so finding employment there is incredibly tough. Nearly every single person I've ever met there either attends on scholarship or mommy and daddy's dime.

So here I've been, scraping together what I've been able to from various jobs over the years in order to pay my tuition, I've relied heavily on public transportation and lived cheaply as possible. Even when I was at Office Depot making $10/hour and commission, it still wouldn't have been enough to cover both tuition and cost of living.

So for a large majority of people, debt is the only way to get anywhere beyond community college.
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Having been in the biz since the early 90s the primary indicator of success from college is what the student does - not the pedigree of the school.

Pedigree helps but in reality it's only a small percentage of schools that have a sufficient pedigree to make up for lack of student effort.

Let's compare a student going to Univ of Alabama (the main state school) and UAB - a "directional" school where I teach.

At UA, most of your first 3 years will be courses taught by Teaching Assistants - generally PhD students at the institution. At UAB, most of your courses will be taught by tenured/tenure-track faculty; many with working experience in the field. I was a TA at UK and I can tell you I am a far better (not even close) teacher now than I was then. Our faculty may not be as known within the academy but that means they may not have the research record that the others do. However, particularly at the undergraduate level much of that research is not ready for prime time and does not substantially filter into the classroom.

Long story short, unless you are going to a top Ivy League school, Standford or a hand full of other institutions, the pedigree issue is way over played and the primary determinant of student outcome is student input.
 
#40
#40
T-TownVol said:
shhhh....he is venting
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Venting yes, got another one starting this fall...

I do think with the Hope it has freed up the schools to raise tuition more than if the Hope was not available. It's also sent a bunch of kids to school that had no buisness being there (not hard to make a 3.0 in HS) which forced building booms and staff increases.
 
#41
#41
milohimself said:
So for a large majority of people, debt is the only way to get anywhere beyond community college.
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Then either accept the debt or they need to wait until they can afford it. Regardless of what we're all told, not everyone must go to college

hog88 said:
Venting yes, got another one starting this fall...

I do think with the Hope it has freed up the schools to raise tuition more than if the Hope was not available. It's also sent a bunch of kids to school that had no buisness being there (not hard to make a 3.0 in HS) which forced building booms and staff increases.
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so you're sending this one to a local CC for the prereqs to offset the cost of their education right?
 
#42
#42
milohimself said:
Sounds like you've produced some extremely high quality offspring, and I mean that genuinely. But it doesn't address the issue.

The inflation rate of tuition over the last couple decades has been incredible. My dad went to Wright State in the late 60's when the Pell grant covered about two thirds of a student's tuition, on average (though he attended on the GI bill). It covers barely half that now.

Besides, there are only so many ROTC slots open and so many scholarships to go around; on top of that, with the usual higher ed. enrollment during economic downturns, there is even more competition for that 'free' money.

I think the big picture issue is one that is related to the rest of education -- we live in a culture where getting at least a two year degree is the expected norm, but the entire system is still designed around a society that sent only a relatively small chunk of its people to colleges and universities.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the compliment.

There are really two issues as I see it. First is there is a certain level of entitlement that permeates our culture from top to bottom. The middle/upper classes complain that welfare recipients rely too much on government handouts but yet we want our college paid for and our corporations bailed out...all really the same issue in my view.

The second issue is how we've mangled the education process to the point that high school doesn't prepare you for blue collar jobs and college doesn't really prepare you for white collar jobs anymore. At both levels we graduate educated idiots unprepared for what comes next and with no idea how to meet the challenges they are going to face. In my view, one of the reasons unemployment is still a problem is many of our new graduates are unemployable without significant training by who ever hires them.

Our values have become tied to education in a way that it makes it seem wrong if someone decides not to go to college, as if only the less intelligent would choose to go into an apprenticeship or trade school. Almost every adult I know can point to a man or women in a skilled trade and accurately identify them as one of the smartest people they know. Yet, all of our efforts are toward college prep...with college attendance (not work) being the goal of every high school, colleges have become the commodity in short supply and high demand and have raised their prices in line with the economics.

I have 4 more kids, 2 of them are freshmen at our county technology school(what we used to call VoTech). I'm going to send the last 2 there as well because it is the only school in the area that is actually preparing kids to go to either work or college. One of the freshmen will have the chance to graduate from HS with at least 3 IT certifications and the other with his EMT license and Armed Guard license. All of them will have a viable choice when they graduate high school to go right to work at a wage that can support a family, or use those skills to work their way through college. And as they attend college they would do so with an understanding of what employers want and have a better chance to be highly marketable when they graduate.

In my view, this is what all high schools should be doing and if they did, we would see a lot of people decide not to go on to college but would find rewarding careers elsewhere. That would lower the demand, which would cause colleges to have to hold tuition costs down, lower the need for students to go into debt etc.
 
#43
#43
hog88 said:
Venting yes, got another one starting this fall...

I do think with the Hope it has freed up the schools to raise tuition more than if the Hope was not available. It's also sent a bunch of kids to school that had no buisness being there (not hard to make a 3.0 in HS) which forced building booms and staff increases.
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I am not in TN sorry.

It is a great burden for parents these days. Just do not be afraid to be honest with your child and show him/her the balance sheet. He/she might surprise you with his/her response.
 
#44
#44
volinbham said:
Long story short, unless you are going to a top Ivy League school, Standford or a hand full of other institutions, the pedigree issue is way over played and the primary determinant of student outcome is student input.
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That's what I'm referring to when somebody has that much debt, I hope it's from a damned good school. Still, generally speaking (this is aside from the Ivys and Stanfords of the world), I don't buy into the "college name" pedigree, but I do buy into better recognition for certain programs. For instance, I initially started as an ME major. Oregon State has a decently-respected engineering program, and the one at PSU frankly sucks, which is why I dropped from it. The result may have been the same if I had worked my ass off at PSU vs if I had been at the top of the bell curve at OSU. So I would have received a better output from OSU than from PSU with the same input: More skills as a result of working with newer and better equipment, social capital, job opportunities, etc. but because of the cost, even if I had received some sort of scholarship, would likely still have had to max out Staffords and possibly even apply with Sallie Mae or something along those lines. But the return would have been immediate and noticeable.

And I don't disagree. That's the situation I'm in now; Portland State is almost an entirely a commuter school and second fiddle in the state to UofO and OSU. But the only classes I can recall taking that were taught by PhD students were a year series of physics w/ calculus (the guy actually happened to be a pretty kick-ass teacher, but I would guess that you get the occasional grad student who can actually deliver a good lecture) and anatomy labs, where that sort of thing is standard practice.
 
#45
#45
YorkVol said:
Thanks for the compliment.

There are really two issues as I see it. First is there is a certain level of entitlement that permeates our culture from top to bottom. The middle/upper classes complain that welfare recipients rely too much on government handouts but yet we want our college paid for and our corporations bailed out...all really the same issue in my view.

The second issue is how we've mangled the education process to the point that high school doesn't prepare you for blue collar jobs and college doesn't really prepare you for white collar jobs anymore. At both levels we graduate educated idiots unprepared for what comes next and with no idea how to meet the challenges they are going to face. In my view, one of the reasons unemployment is still a problem is many of our new graduates are unemployable without significant training by who ever hires them.

Our values have become tied to education in a way that it makes it seem wrong if someone decides not to go to college, as if only the less intelligent would choose to go into an apprenticeship or trade school. Almost every adult I know can point to a man or women in a skilled trade and accurately identify them as one of the smartest people they know. Yet, all of our efforts are toward college prep...with college attendance (not work) being the goal of every high school, colleges have become the commodity in short supply and high demand and have raised their prices in line with the economics.

I have 4 more kids, 2 of them are freshmen at our county technology school(what we used to call VoTech). I'm going to send the last 2 there as well because it is the only school in the area that is actually preparing kids to go to either work or college. One of the freshmen will have the chance to graduate from HS with at least 3 IT certifications and the other with his EMT license and Armed Guard license. All of them will have a viable choice when they graduate high school to go right to work at a wage that can support a family, or use those skills to work their way through college. And as they attend college they would do so with an understanding of what employers want and have a better chance to be highly marketable when they graduate.

In my view, this is what all high schools should be doing and if they did, we would see a lot of people decide not to go on to college but would find rewarding careers elsewhere. That would lower the demand, which would cause colleges to have to hold tuition costs down, lower the need for students to go into debt etc.
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I agree with this. Not to brag too much but one of the great things about our programs (Business) at UAB is that we are very practically focused. Yes we are in the education business but we are also in the jobs/careers business. A kid that comes through our program will be better prepared for the workforce than probably any other Univ. in the state IF they take advantage of the opportunities we provide. We are highly tied to the business community, do a considerable amount of "live project" work and have excellent internship and career programs. What don't we have? A great football team, much school spirit, a beautiful/quaint campus. If a student wants to learn about business and be prepared for a career there we are an outstanding value (read: cheap).
 
#46
#46
volinbham said:
Professors gotta get paid
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You know it... and get 20 year, no interest loans

Brown camp scolds Warren over interest-free loan - BostonHerald.com

Warren disclosed the 20-year interest free loan from Harvard, which lent her between $15,000 and $50,000 in 1996, in financial disclosure forms filed with the Senate last September
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She also earned a $350,000 salary from the University last year, according to her disclosure forms
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#47
#47
utvolpj said:
Then either accept the debt or they need to wait until they can afford it. Regardless of what we're all told, not everyone must go to college



so you're sending this one to a local CC for the prereqs to offset the cost of their education right?
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No TN Tech, I keep telling myself it's an investment.... It's just when you look at that $ amount, knowing you have to write that check this fall gets my blood boiling.
 
#48
#48
Doesn't Georgia have a deal where as long as you maintain a B average the state lottery pays for tuition at a public university? I wonder what the average school loan debt is in states with this program vs. states without?
 
#49
#49
hog88 said:
No TN Tech, I keep telling myself it's an investment.... It's just when you look at that $ amount, knowing you have to write that check this fall gets my blood boiling.
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pretty much my point. Why pay for ENG101 at TTU when it's cheaper somewhere else? I just don't think people are getting the best bang for their buck
 
#50
#50
rjd970 said:
Doesn't Georgia have a deal where as long as you maintain a B average the state lottery pays for tuition at a public university? I wonder what the average school loan debt is in states with this program vs. states without?
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Ga has really cut that program back. There are two levels now and I am not sure the exact breakout but it goes something like this.
A HS GPA of 3.0 to 3.6 or 7 qualifies for a grant equal to 2/3 of the amount of one year of any of the GA public universities. You do not have to go to a GA school and you can apply that amount to your tuition to a private school.
The Zell Miller level which is a GPA over the 3.6 or 7 mark is a full ride.
One must keep the grade point average to qualify from year to year at either of the two levels.

I can not answer your real question about the debt though it is a good question.
 
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