The Obama bubble has burst.

[truefan]

There are too many people that don't seem to understand that 'fascist' and 'communist' are just different labels for socialism.
“When Marxist dictators shoot their way into power in Central America, the San Francisco Democrats don’t blame the guerrillas and their Soviet allies. They blame United States policies of 100 years ago. But then they always blame America first.”
Jeane Kirkpatrick

"Liberals hate America, they hate "flag-wavers,"
they hate abortion opponents, they hate all
religions except Islam.

Even Islamic terrorists don't hate America
like liberals do. They don't have the energy.

If they had that much energy, they'd have
indoor plumbing by now."

Ann Coulter

A completely uninformed statement. You need to read up on it and get back to me.


Let me get this straight....you lay credence on what Ann Coutler says?????

 

[hndog609]

A completely uninformed statement. You need to read up on it and get back to me.

As I will assume gs will come back with some kind of answer how about you? How would you concisely compare and contrast the main tenets of the two?

 

[truefan]

As I will assume gs will come back with some kind of answer how about you? How would you concisely compare and contrast the main tenets of the two?

Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence.[1][2][3][4] Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation or a race.[5][6][7] Fascist movements promote violent conflict between nations, political factions, and races as part of a social darwinist view that conflict between these groups is natural and a part of evolution.[8][9]

Fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[10] Fascist movements oppose any ideology or political system that gives direct political power to people as individuals rather than as a collective through the state (liberalism, democracy, individualism); that is deemed detrimental to national identity and unity (class conflict, communism, internationalism, laissez-faire capitalism); that protects and enhances the power of "weak" people rather than promoting "strong" people (egalitarianism); that may oppose major changes to institutions and cultural values that it proposes (conservatism) and that undermine the military strength and military ambitions of the nation (pacifism).[11][12][13] [14][15][16][17][18][19][20]

Following the defeat of the Axis powers in World War II, the term fascist has been used as a pejorative word. [21]


Communism is a socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general.[1][2][3] Karl Marx posited that communism would be the final stage in human society, which would be achieved through a proletarian revolution. "Pure communism" in the Marxian sense refers to a classless, stateless and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made democratically, allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life.

As a political ideology, communism is usually considered to be a branch of socialism; a broad group of economic and political philosophies that draw on the various political and intellectual movements with origins in the work of theorists of the Industrial Revolution and the French Revolution.[4] Communism attempts to offer an alternative to the problems with the capitalist market economy and the legacy of imperialism and nationalism. Marx states that the only way to solve these problems is for the working class (proletariat), who according to Marx are the main producers of wealth in society and are exploited by the Capitalist-class (bourgeoisie), to replace the bourgeoisie as the ruling class in order to establish a free society, without class or racial divisions.[2] The dominant forms of communism, such as Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism and Trotskyism are based on Marxism, but non-Marxist versions of communism (such as Christian communism and anarcho-communism) also exist.

Karl Marx never provided a detailed description as to how communism would function as an economic system, but it is understood that a communist economy would consist of common ownership of the means of production, and eventually the negation of the concept of private ownership (which is not to be confused with personal possessions). Unlike socialism, which is compatible with a market economy, a communist economy consists of local or communal democratic planning.



Got to love Wikipedia.

 

[hndog609]

Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence.[1][2][3][4] Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation or a race.[5][6][7] Fascist movements promote violent conflict between nations, political factions, and races as part of a social darwinist view that conflict between these groups is natural and a part of evolution.[8][9]

Fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[10] Fascist movements oppose any ideology or political system that gives direct political power to people as individuals rather than as a collective through the state (liberalism, democracy, individualism); that is deemed detrimental to national identity and unity (class conflict, communism, internationalism, laissez-faire capitalism); that protects and enhances the power of "weak" people rather than promoting "strong" people (egalitarianism); that may oppose major changes to institutions and cultural values that it proposes (conservatism) and that undermine the military strength and military ambitions of the nation (pacifism).[11][12][13] [14][15][16][17][18][19][20]

Following the defeat of the Axis powers in World War II, the term fascist has been used as a pejorative word. [21]


Communism is a socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general.[1][2][3] Karl Marx posited that communism would be the final stage in human society, which would be achieved through a proletarian revolution. "Pure communism" in the Marxian sense refers to a classless, stateless and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made democratically, allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life.

As a political ideology, communism is usually considered to be a branch of socialism; a broad group of economic and political philosophies that draw on the various political and intellectual movements with origins in the work of theorists of the Industrial Revolution and the French Revolution.[4] Communism attempts to offer an alternative to the problems with the capitalist market economy and the legacy of imperialism and nationalism. Marx states that the only way to solve these problems is for the working class (proletariat), who according to Marx are the main producers of wealth in society and are exploited by the Capitalist-class (bourgeoisie), to replace the bourgeoisie as the ruling class in order to establish a free society, without class or racial divisions.[2] The dominant forms of communism, such as Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism and Trotskyism are based on Marxism, but non-Marxist versions of communism (such as Christian communism and anarcho-communism) also exist.

Karl Marx never provided a detailed description as to how communism would function as an economic system, but it is understood that a communist economy would consist of common ownership of the means of production, and eventually the negation of the concept of private ownership (which is not to be confused with personal possessions). Unlike socialism, which is compatible with a market economy, a communist economy consists of local or communal democratic planning.



Got to love Wikipedia.

My concise question would be then:

Why do "communist" governments so often seem to, in practice, come off looking eerily like the "fascist" model with some group (or party if you will) in place of a dictator?

 

[truefan]

My concise question would be then:

Why do "communist" governments so often seem to, in practice, come off looking eerily like the "fascist" model with some group (or party if you will) in place of a dictator?

Don't know. I know exactly what you are saying. Maybe because it isn't a true form of communism.

 

[KB5252]

Don't know. I know exactly what you are saying. Maybe because it isn't a true form of communism.

I think in a way it all boils down the human equation. People are corrupted by power. A true communist utopia would be nice where all peoples needs are treated equally and everyone has equal influence over the decisions made in daily life. It isn't possible though because ego, power or what have you always gets in the way. It is a concept due to failure.

 

[MG1968]

and thanks to the wonder that is wikipedia, calling Ollie North and G. Gordon Liddy "fascists" is even more asinine.

being in the military and following the lawful orders of your superior officers isn't fascist. On the other hand, being the commander and issuing orders that you expect to be followed isn't fascism either. The whole military structure rests on a chain of command and it relies on the training and discipline of all involved.

I don't see where truefan gets that "following orders" makes you a fascist.

again, his intent was to insult Ollie and Liddy.

 

[gsvol]

A completely uninformed statement. You need to read up on it and get back to me.

My statement wasn't uninformed at all, are you trying to impersonate some CEO??

Let me get this straight....you lay credence on what Ann Coutler says?????

Actually I was interjecting some humor.

What did you think of Kirkpatrick's statement??

She pretty well nails the liberals and their world view.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams

Got to love Wikipedia.

Actually wiccanpeter is a piss poor place to go to get information, it's a great idea but anyone can write whatever they want on it and so any serious research should go beyond that site.

A fine example was last year when someone wrote a profile for John Siegenthaler the past publisher and editor of the Nashville Tennessean in which he was accused of being complicit in the JFK assassination.

Siegentahaler is a hard core liberal Democrat who was a friend and supporter of Kennedy and carries water of Al Gore in the extreme, saying he was in on the assassination plot is sort of like saying Mary Poppins was one of the trigger men. Anyway that bogus profile stayed on the net for four months before someone told him about it. The easiest thing on the bogus profile to debunk was the accusation that he left the country and stayed for a while directly after the assassination and he had plenty of witnesses that said he didn't.

I'll stick with my statement, which is true, both fascism and communism are socialist systems, nitpicking small differences doesn't make their basic ideology any different. Even the methodology of propagandizing and playing on the

The term 'fascist' was coined by Musolinni who was having trouble pushing socialism in post WWI Italy, he thought if he could bundle together various groups he could put together a coalition that could win democratic elections.

The Italian word for 'bundle' is 'fasci', hence the term 'fascist' came into use. I might mention here that the democrat party is quite adept at bundling together various special interest groups to win elections.

My concise question would be then:

Why do "communist" governments so often seem to, in practice, come off looking eerily like the "fascist" model with some group (or party if you will) in place of a dictator?

Should be a no brainer.

Don't know. I know exactly what you are saying. Maybe because it isn't a true form of communism.

There is and never will be, short of divine intervention, a true form of communism, nice idea in theory but we have example after example after example that the theory doesn't translate into reality.

 

[gsvol]

and thanks to the wonder that is wikipedia, calling Ollie North and G. Gordon Liddy "fascists" is even more asinine.

being in the military and following the lawful orders of your superior officers isn't fascist. On the other hand, being the commander and issuing orders that you expect to be followed isn't fascism either. The whole military structure rests on a chain of command and it relies on the training and discipline of all involved.

I don't see where truefan gets that "following orders" makes you a fascist.

again, his intent was to insult Ollie and Liddy.

He probably thinks the murderous thug, Che Guevara is some sort of saint because, like many young and some not so young, people have swallowed the romaticized communist propaganda version of Guevara's life story, (which is lie upon lie upon lie,) hook line and sinker.

 

[rockydoc]

Obama's bubble now lies shattered around him.

Absolutely no single decision or effort by the new administration has worked out as planned. With two months to prepare, unparalleled cooperation from the preceding administration, full control of the government, and an almost disturbing level of public support, Obama has misfired more completely than any other administration in history.


And you actually thought this shallow rookie neophyte senator of community organizer experience was going to be a leader. I bet you also though Erik Ainge would lead the Jets to the Super Bowl.

Friend, Obama will do nothing other that fill the pockets of his corrupt Chicago political cronies with our money while the likes of Pelosie, Reid, and Barney Frank push us into socialism.

lol:

 

[gsvol]

Absolutely no single decision or effort by the new administration has worked out as planned. With two months to prepare, unparalleled cooperation from the preceding administration, full control of the government, and an almost disturbing level of public support, Obama has misfired more completely than any other administration in history.


And you actually thought this shallow rookie neophyte senator of community organizer experience was going to be a leader. I bet you also though Erik Ainge would lead the Jets to the Super Bowl.

Friend, Obama will do nothing other that fill the pockets of his corrupt Chicago political cronies with our money while the likes of Pelosie, Reid, and Barney Frank push us into socialism.

lol:

Oh well, it's better to laugh than cry.

 

[SavageOrangeJug]

Obama's bubble now lies shattered around him.

Absolutely no single decision or effort by the new administration has worked out as planned. With two months to prepare, unparalleled cooperation from the preceding administration, full control of the government, and an almost disturbing level of public support, Obama has misfired more completely than any other administration in history.


And you actually thought this shallow rookie neophyte senator of community organizer experience was going to be a leader. I bet you also though Erik Ainge would lead the Jets to the Super Bowl.

Friend, Obama will do nothing other that fill the pockets of his corrupt Chicago political cronies with our money while the likes of Pelosie, Reid, and Barney Frank push us into socialism.

lol:

The most truthful post I've ever seen in this forum. :good!:

 

[gsvol]

The most truthful post I've ever seen in this forum. :good!:

Rahm Emanuel is about to be exposed!!!

Feb. 17, 2009.

Rahm's unreported free rent is just the tip of the iceberg.

A real class act.


"Socialism is great until you run out of someone else's money" Margaret Thatcher

"There are two sets of rules. One set for the rulers and another for the rest of us."
—Richard Yancey, former IRS tax collector

Rosa DeLauro

Leona Helmsley unwittingly created the slogan for arrogant oligarchs when she was quoted as saying, "Only little people pay taxes", at a tax evasion trial in 1989 when she and her husband were worth multiple billions! Now we see that major politicians appear to have the same attitude. Especially those close to Barack Obama.

Rahm Emanuel resigned his position as an adviser to Bill Clinton, in 1998 to become a Wall Street investment banker with Wasserstein Perella, (now Dresdner Kleinwort), where he worked until 2002. In 1999, he became managing director at their Chicago office.

According to Congressional disclosures, Emanuel made $16.2 million in his 2 1/2 year stint as a banker AND he paid all his taxes.

Pres Bill Clinton in 2000 named Mr Perfect to the Board of Directors for the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation ("Freddie Mac"). Rahm's position paid him $31,060 in 2000 and $231,655 in 2001 and paid all his taxes. During the time Emanuel spent on the board, Freddie Mac was plagued with scandals involving campaign contributions and accounting irregularities.

The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO) later accused the board of having "failed in its duty to follow up on matters brought to its attention."

Rahm then ran for Congress, luckily members of the securities and investment industry became his biggest backers, donating more than $1.5M to his campaigns dating back to 2002, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

Emanuel also leaned heavily upon the industry as 2006 Dem Congressional Campaign Committee Chair. Financial industry donors contributed more than $5.8M to the Dem committee, behind only retirees.

 

[OrangeYankee]

Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence.[1][2][3][4] Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation or a race.[5][6][7] Fascist movements promote violent conflict between nations, political factions, and races as part of a social darwinist view that conflict between these groups is natural and a part of evolution.[8][9]

The new tone ring a bell? Bush tried his damndest (and much to his demise) to get the other side to play ball. No child left behind was Kennedy's (hic) baby. He brought up the Medicare bill to try to appease to the other side. He let the other side crucify him personally without as much as a batted eye from him in response.
Now on to Colonel North, Ronald Reagan. When did they EVER try to supress the other side? I mean even if the two were guilty of the charges from the whole Iran-Contra affair, how in the hell is it their goal to bring out a one party system through all of that? I could see the angle of promoting violent actions between other nations. But hell that statement could apply to any war fought. With that definition the USA was fascist for fighting fascists in WWII by helping Europe.

I'm going to go on and say I get much more fascist vibes from the nutbags who voted President Obama into office than anything. I've read from more left Boards than this one, how they think the Republican party needs to just get out of the way and die politically so they can get stuff done. How Obama needs to lift the ban on running for more than two terms so he can "rule" for life. So yeah, lets keep the blanket accusations to ourselves shall we?

Fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[10] Fascist movements oppose any ideology or political system that gives direct political power to people as individuals rather than as a collective through the state (liberalism, democracy, individualism); that is deemed detrimental to national identity and unity (class conflict, communism, internationalism, laissez-faire capitalism); that protects and enhances the power of "weak" people rather than promoting "strong" people (egalitarianism); that may oppose major changes to institutions and cultural values that it proposes (conservatism) and that undermine the military strength and military ambitions of the nation (pacifism).[11][12][13] [14][15][16][17][18][19][20]

Following the defeat of the Axis powers in World War II, the term fascist has been used as a pejorative word. [21]

Again, show me examples of how Reagan or North tried to suppress criticism? That was a bit far back for me, but most of your side also accuse Bush of being a fascist, and I have one name for you that totally disproves that point: Michael Moore. I rest my case. Bush has been the most reviled and hated president in recent memory by the leftists in the media, Hollywood, and in the universities. He has been not only openly criticized, but had death threats thrown at him by people of the media (wishing for his assassination). Did he do ANYTHING to suppress that? NO! In fact he even congratulated them because it just proved how great our country was.

And again, I'll go turn this around and throw the blanket statement back to play devil's advocate. Fairness Doctrine. Yes, a heavy Democratic presence wants this thing passed like no thing else. Talk radio has burst their monopoly on information, and there is a contingent that wants this stopped. They have been talking about it since the 2004 election. I've heard from the mouths of Reid, Pelosi, and Murtha mainly about how they feel it necessary to bring it back. I've been trying my best to not label people who don't see things my way as a thug, despot, or criminal, but man I've had enough of the accusations thrown my way.

It's ok that you don't think Bush was good for our country. Hell, I may join in you in a lot of those criticisms, since I'm intellectually honest. He was completely fiscally irresponsible, may as well have tacked up giant COME ON IN signs on all of our borders, and refused to confront any issues. I know you were originally talking about Liddy and North, but that seems to be the statement made about ANYONE on the right by people who oppose them, and it just gets tiring. They could be a lot of things, hell even theists (still a stretch but a hell of a lot less of one), but they are NOT fascists.

 

[orangepeel]

These Obama haters continue to reach in trying to paint him in a negative light. Your efforts could be put into much better use. Such as trying to improve your country rather than constantly tear it down... Refusal to admit when you have been wrong is a pretty crappy character trait.

It's too bad the liberals didn't do the same for GWB....like you said,it's a pretty crappy character trait,but it's what I've come to expect. :good!:

 

[gsvol]

It's too bad the liberals didn't do the same for GWB....like you said,it's a pretty crappy character trait,but it's what I've come to expect. :good!:

They should expect the karma, what goes round comes
round.