The Official Libertarian/Anarcho-Capitalist Thread

[n_huffhines]

They actually work well because so many people believe the internet is "organic"......

This demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of how search engines work. Even if the organic results are not organic, they are not results that businesses can pay for. Whether or not people think organic results are truly organic has nothing to do with paid search results. When I spend $12k per month, I am paying to show up in paid search channels. I wish I could get them on organic that easily, but it's not the way things work.

 

[Grand Vol]

For somebody, it's always worth it, but it's not worth it for everybody. Just because it works for somebody else in your industry doesn't mean it will work as well for you. For example, the main website I market doesn't do well at all with text ads, but it does $280k/month off about $12k in advertising spend thru the Google Shopping channel (the thumbnail product images you see in the link below) and we are super happy with that ROI. Whereas the other website I market does well on both.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=kitchen faucets

It's more for a hiring and recruiting tool. Our Atlanta and Houston branches are in love with it, but I'm not sure about the OKC area.

 

[T-TownVol]

This demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of how search engines work. Even if the organic results are not organic, they are not results that businesses can pay for. Whether or not people think organic results are truly organic has nothing to do with paid search results. When I spend $12k per month, I am paying to show up in paid search channels. I wish I could get them on organic that easily, but it's not the way things work.

Exactly......"so many people believe".......

 

[n_huffhines]

Exactly......"so many people believe".......

 

[n_huffhines]

It's more for a hiring and recruiting tool. Our Atlanta and Houston branches are in love with it, but I'm not sure about the OKC area.

I would assume if you can make it work in one metropolitan area, it would probably work in another (for the same business model). Each area will have different levels of responsiveness, but then you just lower the spend in the location that doesn't perform as well.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

Serious question.

How does the United States of America's democratic republic move from it's current state to an ANCAP state without major disruption in the quality/delivery/maintenance/production of food, shelter, clothing, energy, and transportation, etc. to such a degree that quality of life is not degraded to near abject impoverishment for decades, possibly a century or more, to come?

That's a serious concern I have about far right of libertarian ANCAP ideology.
How can you get that to work based on this "increasing knowledge and goodwill among men" ... (sounds religious doesn't it?) ... when left wing socialists can't get their institutions to stay in the air, even if they are able to get a socialist nation, such as Venezuala, off the ground for a while?

Descibe how without depending on the non aggression principle, which I believe is a non starter to begin with.

 

[n_huffhines]

There will definitely be some disruption to the market place, but I fail to see why you think that it could lead to decades of impoverishment. The government doesn't make us wealthier, they make us play by specific rules. We are the ones that make ourselves wealthy. It's not a very conservative/monetarist position to put this much weight on government participation in the market place.

Venezuela? Really? It's not the intent behind the system that matters, it's the mechanisms that make it work or fail. We'll be fine as long as the government doesn't **** too much with the profit mechanism.

 

[DEFENDTHISHOUSE]

Serious question.

How does the United States of America's democratic republic move from it's current state to an ANCAP state without major disruption in the quality/delivery/maintenance/production of food, shelter, clothing, energy, and transportation, etc. to such a degree that quality of life is not degraded to near abject impoverishment for decades, possibly a century or more, to come?

That's a serious concern I have about far right of libertarian ANCAP ideology.
How can you get that to work based on this "increasing knowledge and goodwill among men" ... (sounds religious doesn't it?) ... when left wing socialists can't get their institutions to stay in the air, even if they are able to get a socialist nation, such as Venezuala, off the ground for a while?

Descibe how without depending on the non aggression principle, which I believe is a non starter to begin with.

The honest problem with your question is you assume the government does these things now. They do not. It's private industry that supplies the food, power, clothing, etc. that makes our lives so great. All the government does is rake in the money from your taxes. In order for them to provide anything, they must first steal from someone else.

I dont think anyone who advocates for anarcho/capitalism would be naïve enough to expect it to be a utopia. There will be problems as with anything else.

The problem with socialism is its dependence on other people's money. Sooner or later the money runs out and you're left with places like Venezuela.

How do you mean the NAP is a non-starter? It's not a law, it's a principle. All it means is those who choose to follow the NAP, they don't use violence to solve their problems. Most already follow this in their daily lives as is.

I would imagine society would operate much like it does now. You cannot centrally plan human volition.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

"without major disruption"

Do we have a military to prevent takover by democratic socialists or oriental communism? What stops N. Korea from plunging south and decimating an american trading partner?
How is a smooth handoff between the Nuclear Regulatory Commissions responsibilities over the industry that provides the baseline power in the US, without which, there will be at the minimum, rolling blackouts all year long, and worst case, regions where unprepared folk will freeze in the datk? How will the sums be collected to pay Heavy Industrial & Commercial construction companies the multimillions it takes to maintain water, sewage, hydro, landline, natural gas, ... much less the easy peasy road maintenance? It's continuous, 24/7/365 and hey, any outlaw militia can appropriate a national guard armory or three and just start setting up their own fiefdom, eh? And if some "security contractor" who's supposed to suppress such behavior sees their way as an easier path to greater power (you know, just take it, don't wait to be paid for it, ..as if that's going to happen on a regular basis anyway. ...

I'm just rattling off scenarios here that, in the early stages of transition, seem to me to be more likely than not to happen. I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in that NAP. In fact, I find it rather goofy, given the semi Mad Maxx circus off the Mexican border towns, the cartel powers, the power grabs of the Russian oligarchy after the fall of the USSR.

From: The Russian Economy in the Aftermath of the Collapse of the Soviet Union

www2.needham.k12.ma.us/nhs/cur/Baker_00/03-04/baker%20poland%20p1/ussr.htm

"Many factories were forced to shut down because the government no longer supported them financially in return for their goods. It was during this period of rapid privatization that Russia's "oligarchs" gained much of their wealth. Oligarchs are the handful of Russian tycoons who own everything from sports teams to major oil companies. A substantial portion of Russia's wealth today is owned by fifteen or so oligarchs (Karon). While these few businessmen benefited enormously from privatization, by 1992 about fifty percent of the Russian population lived below the poverty line."

These things occured with the government in transition. You're pretty much calling for no government. I see that as generating a hell on earth for many years. Unless a man of unquestionable benevolence comes to greater power than those driven by greed and suppresses them. Then what have we got ... benevolent monarchy by another name?

 

[n_huffhines]

Did you really just ask how will sums be collected for utilities?

 

[tumscalcium]

Did you really just ask how will sums be collected for utilities?

You do realize it's just a fantasy, right? With this topic you're living in the world you want to live in, not the one you actually live in. It will never happen. Ever. Every person has to want exactly the same thing.

This is like a transanarcho wet dream.

 

[n_huffhines]

www2.needham.k12.ma.us/nhs/cur/Baker_00/03-04/baker%20poland%20p1/ussr.htm

"Many factories were forced to shut down because the government no longer supported them financially in return for their goods. It was during this period of rapid privatization that Russia's "oligarchs" gained much of their wealth. Oligarchs are the handful of Russian tycoons who own everything from sports teams to major oil companies. A substantial portion of Russia's wealth today is owned by fifteen or so oligarchs (Karon). While these few businessmen benefited enormously from privatization, by 1992 about fifty percent of the Russian population lived below the poverty line."

These things occured with the government in transition. You're pretty much calling for no government. I see that as generating a hell on earth for many years. Unless a man of unquestionable benevolence comes to greater power than those driven by greed and suppresses them. Then what have we got ... benevolent monarchy by another name?

I don't know why you think using examples of communism and corrupt Russia is making your case for government. Things are terrible in Russia specifically because they have corrupt government. You can't use this against me. I use this against you...but since you brought it up...

The communists had a fake, propped up economy and it was doing terribly. Of course factories shut down when communism fell. Many of them should have never been built in the first place. We're not in terrible economic shape like the Soviets were. "15 oligarchs" were able to buy up a lot of assets in Russia because they were rock bottom. It doesn't just happen because government gets out of the way. What happened there is a unique phenomenon. There are more ingredients than just the existence of some form of government.

 

[hog88]

You do realize it's just a fantasy, right? With this topic you're living in the world you want to live in, not the one you actually live in. It will never happen. Ever. Every person has to want exactly the same thing.

This is like a transanarcho wet dream.

Oh it could absolutely happen, I just don't believe Huff or DTH will like the results.

 

[n_huffhines]

Oh it could absolutely happen, I just don't believe Huff or DTH will like the results.

You got nerve showing up in here.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

Did you really just ask how will sums be collected for utilities?

Do you really believe in such a Pollyanna transition, Sunshine?

 

[DEFENDTHISHOUSE]

In America today there are upwards of 350 million guns. I personally think that's a very low estimate. Now, if we observe warfare over the years in places like Vietnam and Afghanistan we will see that an armed populous is a great deterrent towards hostile nations. I personally think America, if invaded, will turn into the largest guerrilla warfare state in the history of the world. In Afghanistan we saw common folks armed with little more than AK's and enfield rifles take two superpowers to their limits.

You also have to think, if the tax structure is no more, an invading power would have to reestablish that structure. Considering the heavy resistance that would already be in place, this would be nearly impossible. The costs to the invading nation would be too much to bare.

The nuclear weapon issue is an interesting quandary. I've often contemplated that myself and haven't really come up with a real concrete answer. Other than it would be very detrimental for anyone to use them against another nation or state. You might as well banish yourself, because no one else will do business with you afterwards.

libertarians/anarchists don't have all the answers, we'd just like to stop robbing and killing each other and find out where that leads.

 

[DEFENDTHISHOUSE]

Oh it could absolutely happen, I just don't believe Huff or DTH will like the results.

Why is that?

 

[Carl Pickens]

For somebody, it's always worth it, but it's not worth it for everybody. Just because it works for somebody else in your industry doesn't mean it will work as well for you. For example, the main website I market doesn't do well at all with text ads, but it does $280k/month off about $12k in advertising spend thru the Google Shopping channel (the thumbnail product images you see in the link below) and we are super happy with that ROI. Whereas the other website I market does well on both.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=kitchen faucets

Kitchen faucets? I always suspected you were into pfisters and what not.....

 

[Orangedogsrule]

Kitchen faucets? I always suspected you were into pfisters and what not.....

Actually, we knew it.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

I don't know why you think using examples of communism and corrupt Russia is making your case for government. Things are terrible in Russia specifically because they have corrupt government.


You can't use this against me. I use this against you...

Chortle haw ha ... you gonna take your ball and go home?

but since you brought it up...

The communists had a fake, propped up economy and it was doing terribly. Of course factories shut down when communism fell. Many of them should have never been built in the first place.

We're not in terrible economic shape like the Soviets were.

Fact, there is not one steel foundry in the US that can make a nuclear reactor. None.
No one can produce the steam generator pressure vessels either. A good portion of the USA's "economy" is fake also.
But hey,...I can't use the analogy...only you can Polly, because ... well ... just because! dammit!

"15 oligarchs" were able to buy up a lot of assets in Russia because they were rock bottom. It doesn't just happen because government gets out of the way. What happened there is a unique phenomenon. There are more ingredients than just the existence of some form of government.

325,000,000 is the approx US population. And 3% to 5% of which are sociopaths with no conscience what so ever. Some are functioning sociopaths, some are not. Anyway, call it 4%. So, there are at least 13,000,000 million who don't give a rats long tail whether the ANCAP fantasy you guys love so much succeeds or fails, just as long as they don't get hit by someone's stick. Oh, and speaking of sticks, since sociopaths are more likely to advance; in management about %3 of them are sociopaths who score in the psychopath range! and are in upper management. They REALLY don't give a damn about your precious little Pollyanna ANCAP world. In fact, that specific "nongovernment" you creme over is the absolute perfect "business incubator" in which they will take take control, with no self obligation to play nice. These are the pathological "mental narcissists" who see themselves as rightfull successors to step into the void. Mad Maxx indeed.

 

[n_huffhines]

325,000,000 is the approx US population. And 3% to 5% of which are sociopaths with no conscience what so ever. Some are functioning sociopaths, some are not. Anyway, call it 4%. So, there are at least 13,000,000 million who don't give a rats long tail whether the ANCAP fantasy you guys love so much succeeds or fails, just as long as they don't get hit by someone's stick. Oh, and speaking of sticks, since sociopaths are more likely to advance; in management about %3 of them are sociopaths who score in the psychopath range! and are in upper management. They REALLY don't give a damn about your precious little Pollyanna ANCAP world. In fact, that specific "nongovernment" you creme over is the absolute perfect "business incubator" in which they will take take control, with no self obligation to play nice. These are the pathological "mental narcissists" who see themselves as rightfull successors to step into the void. Mad Maxx indeed.

Sociopaths rise up the ranks of government, too. They are more dangerous with government power. I win again.

In business you play nice because it's in your best interest. In government you play nice if somebody over you demands it. Which mechanism do you trust more?

 

[Orangedogsrule]

Sociopaths rise up the ranks of government, too. They are more dangerous with government power. I win again.

In business you play nice because it's in your best interest. In government you play nice if somebody over you demands it. Which mechanism do you trust more?

Oh bull****. You win nothing.
Your unmitigated faith that folk will "play nice" in the face of rapacious predators that exist in the various forms of socialism, communism, and capitalism today reeks of intelluctual vapidity. I'm done with this thread as it's becoming too silly for words.

"You can't reference the fall of the soviets, only I can".

"In business you play nice because it's in your best interest".

I'm trying to have a real world conversation with a middle schooler.

Phhfft! done

 

[Orange_Crush]

Oh bull****. You win nothing.
Your unmitigated faith that folk will "play nice" in the face of rapacious predators that exist in the various forms of socialism, communism, and capitalism today reeks of intelluctual vapidity. I'm done with this thread as it's becoming too silly for words.

"You can't reference the fall of the soviets, only I can".

"In business you play nice because it's in your best interest".

I'm trying to have a real world conversation with a middle schooler.

Phhfft! done

Now you're catching on. It's actually quite striking... When you list the historical effects of power vacuums between gov'ts, our resident ANCAPs blame those effects on the gov't. When they are backed against a wall, their 'out' is: "Hey, we don't have all the answers; we just want to see what happens when gov't stop stealing from us and killing us."

Well, we have a good idea what would happen. Predators would start killing and stealing. The same kind of people that are abusing people now will have unrestrained opportunity to kill and steal.

I suspect that our current, unsustainable economy will break down at some time. Our current crony-capitalistic corporate-run gov't will break down. There will be a power vacuum, and we'll get to see what Anarchy has to offer.

It won't be the benefit our resident anarchists believe that it will be. The good news for them, there probably won't be an internet for us to say, "I told you so", and we'll be so intent on trying to feed and protect our families that we wouldn't have time to log in and post it anyway.

 

[DEFENDTHISHOUSE]

Now you're catching on. It's actually quite striking... When you list the historical effects of power vacuums between gov'ts, our resident ANCAPs blame those effects on the gov't. When they are backed against a wall, their 'out' is: "Hey, we don't have all the answers; we just want to see what happens when gov't stop stealing from us and killing us."

Well, we have a good idea what would happen. Predators would start killing and stealing. The same kind of people that are abusing people now will have unrestrained opportunity to kill and steal.

I suspect that our current, unsustainable economy will break down at some time. Our current crony-capitalistic corporate-run gov't will break down. There will be a power vacuum, and we'll get to see what Anarchy has to offer.

It won't be the benefit our resident anarchists believe that it will be. The good news for them, there probably won't be an internet for us to say, "I told you so", and we'll be so intent on trying to feed and protect our families that we wouldn't have time to log in and post it anyway.

The funny thing is you place all your faith in limited government and even acknowledge the failings of the current system but refuse to take the next logical step, which is anarchism.

 

[InVOLuntary]

People are sheep now. They need government to tell them what to to do and when to do it. They rely on government to tell them what to out in their bodies. They rely on government to take care of so many facets of their lives they'll always support some form of government. Government will rise again!