The Section 103 Postgame Report - Belmont

#351
#351
TennNC said:
I've not seen you bash Lofton's efforts on either end of the floor. I can't imagine you'd penalize a guy for physical shortcomings (lack of size, lateral quickness, etc.). Lofton always gave the effort, even if he had some shortcomings relative to NBA aspirations.

Sounds like you believed JWill had all the physical skills but just didn't give the effort. Or maybe he lacked heart, which was his handicap. Just seems like that would really frustrate you, no?
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I regularly blistered Lofton for his defense.

I think Williams had the physical skills but not the focus to play d. It was frustrating and it eventually doomed them, but he generally overcamevtye problem by making them so dominant offensively. It was only a problem against the best teams and he could still almost overcome it.

Bottom line, as a Duke fan, he was fun as hell to watch because he was physically dominant.
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#352
#352
hatvol96 said:
Considering the Big East hasn't been a conference for 34 years, that's a good way to get a head start.
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okay - I was angling for a happy birthday wish, but we'll start whenever you'd like - 1979? 1990?

And listen, I hate the Florida Gators, New York Yankees, New England Patriots, and Duke Blue Devils, but I have to recognize that those teams all know how to do one thing really well - win.

know what I mean?
 
#353
#353
TennNC said:
If college performance is not an indicator of NBA performance, then why do NBA scouts attend college games?
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That's now the mandated level guys will play at before the NBA. You can certainly get an indication of a player's ability. However, as the fact multiple people on here kept trying to pass Chris Lofton off as NBA material despite being tols by those of us on this board who actually watch the league that he had zero shot indicates, college success is much less a predictor than a guy's physical skills and competitive nature.
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#354
#354
TennNC said:
okay - I was angling for a happy birthday wish, but we'll start whenever you'd like - 1979? 1990?

And listen, I hate the Florida Gators, New York Yankees, New England Patriots, and Duke Blue Devils, but I have to recognize that those teams all know how to do one thing really well - win.

know what I mean?
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You hate Duke, yet they are an enormous piece of why you find the triangle such a college hoops Mecca. How does that work?
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#355
#355
A couple things:
1) BPV and JZV: Form your own opinions, or at least try. If I wanted to hear Hat's opinion twice, I would simply re-read his posts
2) I'm backing TennNC in the Jay Williams debate. History backs us up. Here goes.
Points guards drafted in the top ten over the last ten years:

2008: Derrick Rose; Russell Westbrook; DJ Augustin (OJ Mayo listed as SG)
2007: Mike Conley
2006: Brandon Roy; Randy Foye
2005: Deron Williams; Chris Paul; Raymond Felton
2004: Ben Gordon; Shaun Livingston; Devin Harris
2003: Kirk Hinrich; TJ Ford
2002: Jay Williams; Dajuan Wagner
2001: None
2000: Jamal Crawford
1999: Steve Francis; Baron Davis; Andre Miller; Jason Terry
1998: Mike Bibby; Jason Williams

The NBA scouts are obviously pretty good at sizing up point guards and tweener shooting guards -- way more often than not, they get it right. The NBA scouts thought highly enough of Jay Williams to draft him #2 overall. Thus, it is way more likely that Jay Williams would have been a very good NBA point guard than a bust.

That's my conclusion. Feel free to form your own. Or if you're BPV or JZV, wait until Hat forms an opinion of his own, and then simply restate that opinion.
 
#356
#356
TennNC said:
okay - I was angling for a happy birthday wish, but we'll start whenever you'd like - 1979? 1990?

And listen, I hate the Florida Gators, New York Yankees, New England Patriots, and Duke Blue Devils, but I have to recognize that those teams all know how to do one thing really well - win.

know what I mean?
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Let's go with the last 15 and see how the ACC stacks up.
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#357
#357
kidbourbon said:
A couple things:
1) BPV and JZV: Form your own opinions, or at least try. If I wanted to hear Hat's opinion twice, I would simply re-read his posts
2) I'm backing TennNC in the Jay Williams debate. History backs us up. Here goes.
Points guards drafted in the top ten over the last ten years:

2008: Derrick Rose; Russell Westbrook; DJ Augustin (OJ Mayo listed as SG)
2007: Mike Conley
2006: Brandon Roy; Randy Foye
2005: Deron Williams; Chris Paul; Raymond Felton
2004: Ben Gordon; Shaun Livingston; Devin Harris
2003: Kirk Hinrich; TJ Ford
2002: Jay Williams; Dajuan Wagner
2001: None
2000: Jamal Crawford
1999: Steve Francis; Baron Davis; Andre Miller; Jason Terry
1998: Mike Bibby; Jason Williams

The NBA scouts are obviously pretty good at sizing up point guards and tweener shooting guards -- way more often than not, they get it right. The NBA scouts thought highly enough of Jay Williams to draft him #2 overall. Thus, it is way more likely that Jay Williams would have been a very good NBA point guard than a bust.

That's my conclusion. Feel free to form your own. Or if you're BPV or JZV, wait until Hat forms an opinion of his own, and then simply restate that opinion.
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Yeah, because they nailed that other 2002 pick. He was the second pick in a wretched draft.
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#359
#359
kidbourbon said:
A couple things:
1) BPV and JZV: Form your own opinions, or at least try. If I wanted to hear Hat's opinion twice, I would simply re-read his posts
2) I'm backing TennNC in the Jay Williams debate. History backs us up. Here goes.
Points guards drafted in the top ten over the last ten years:

2008: Derrick Rose; Russell Westbrook; DJ Augustin (OJ Mayo listed as SG)
2007: Mike Conley
2006: Brandon Roy; Randy Foye
2005: Deron Williams; Chris Paul; Raymond Felton
2004: Ben Gordon; Shaun Livingston; Devin Harris
2003: Kirk Hinrich; TJ Ford
2002: Jay Williams; Dajuan Wagner
2001: None
2000: Jamal Crawford
1999: Steve Francis; Baron Davis; Andre Miller; Jason Terry
1998: Mike Bibby; Jason Williams

The NBA scouts are obviously pretty good at sizing up point guards and tweener shooting guards -- way more often than not, they get it right. The NBA scouts thought highly enough of Jay Williams to draft him #2 overall. Thus, it is way more likely that Jay Williams would have been a very good NBA point guard than a bust.

That's my conclusion. Feel free to form your own. Or if you're BPV or JZV, wait until Hat forms an opinion of his own, and then simply restate that opinion.
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Compare the rookie numbers of the guys on that list who are actually worth a damn to those of Jay Williams. It will be instructive.
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#361
#361
kidbourbon said:
A couple things:
1) BPV and JZV: Form your own opinions, or at least try. If I wanted to hear Hat's opinion twice, I would simply re-read his posts
2) I'm backing TennNC in the Jay Williams debate. History backs us up. Here goes.
Points guards drafted in the top ten over the last ten years:

2008: Derrick Rose; Russell Westbrook; DJ Augustin (OJ Mayo listed as SG)
2007: Mike Conley
2006: Brandon Roy; Randy Foye
2005: Deron Williams; Chris Paul; Raymond Felton
2004: Ben Gordon; Shaun Livingston; Devin Harris
2003: Kirk Hinrich; TJ Ford
2002: Jay Williams; Dajuan Wagner
2001: None
2000: Jamal Crawford
1999: Steve Francis; Baron Davis; Andre Miller; Jason Terry
1998: Mike Bibby; Jason Williams

The NBA scouts are obviously pretty good at sizing up point guards and tweener shooting guards -- way more often than not, they get it right. The NBA scouts thought highly enough of Jay Williams to draft him #2 overall. Thus, it is way more likely that Jay Williams would have been a very good NBA point guard than a bust.

That's my conclusion. Feel free to form your own. Or if you're BPV or JZV, wait until Hat forms an opinion of his own, and then simply restate that opinion.
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How many of those guys are you saying are very good NBA point guards?
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#362
#362
hatvol96 said:
You've got multiple guys on your "list" who play little or no time at the point. Probably better to know the "rule" is before you start deciding what the exceptions are.
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Still trying to figure out why you quoted the word 'list'...
 
#364
#364
hatvol96 said:
How many of those guys are you saying are very good NBA point guards?
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Some of them are tweeners from a position perspective, so let's just say "very good NBA players":
Derrick Rose; Brandon Roy; Chris Paul; Deron Williams; Mike Bibby; Baron Davis, Ben Gordon, Devin Harris, Jason Terry; Kirk Hinrich (was elite at one point...has dropped off a bit); OJ Mayo will be solid (he could have arguably be listed as a pg out of college).

The following guys aren't scrubs by any means:
Steve Francis (used to be good); Jason Williams; Andre Miller; TJ Ford; Jamal Crawford; Raymond Felton, Randy Foye

Mike Conley may still pan out. Too early to tell on Russel Westbrook or DJ Augustin.

Shaun Livingston -- not his fault.

We can argue about the merits of each of these guys and whether they are elite or just competent. But only one of them was a bust. So your argument that Jay Williams would have been an all-out bust and would have sucked as a pro is contrary to ten years of evidence.
 
#365
#365
hatvol96 said:
Because it is allegedly a list of point guards and a whole bunch of those guys aren't.
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It is a list of guys drafted in the top ten in the last ten years who were listed at pg (or listed at multiple positions, one of which was pg) at the time they were drafted.
 
#367
#367
kidbourbon said:
Some of them are tweeners from a position perspective, so let's just say "very good NBA players":
Derrick Rose; Brandon Roy; Chris Paul; Deron Williams; Mike Bibby; Baron Davis, Ben Gordon, Devin Harris, Jason Terry; Kirk Hinrich (was elite at one point...has dropped off a bit); OJ Mayo will be solid (he could have arguably be listed as a pg out of college).

The following guys aren't scrubs by any means:
Steve Francis (used to be good); Jason Williams; Andre Miller; TJ Ford; Jamal Crawford; Raymond Felton, Randy Foye

Mike Conley may still pan out. Too early to tell on Russel Westbrook or DJ Augustin.

Shaun Livingston -- not his fault.

We can argue about the merits of each of these guys and whether they are elite or just competent. But only one of them was a bust. So your argument that Jay Williams would have been an all-out bust and would have sucked as a pro is contrary to ten years of evidence.
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Hinrich and Felton are so good their teams have drafted another point guard with them on the roster. Jamal Crawford, who plays about as many minutes as I do at point guard, is such a contributor that he's spent his career being traded from bad team to bad team. The planet on which Kirk Hinrich is, was, or ever will be an "elite" player has never existed. The fact Sacramento became an NBA power upon trading Jason Williams is very instructive. Jason Terry has rarely seen the point since he went to Dallas. Brandon Roy plays the 3 as much as he does the 1. Also, I'm going to assume you didn't do the numerical comparison of rookie numbers I mentioned.
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#368
#368
kidbourbon said:
A couple things:
1) BPV and JZV: Form your own opinions, or at least try. If I wanted to hear Hat's opinion twice, I would simply re-read his posts
2) I'm backing TennNC in the Jay Williams debate. History backs us up. Here goes.
Points guards drafted in the top ten over the last ten years:

2008: Derrick Rose; Russell Westbrook; DJ Augustin (OJ Mayo listed as SG)
2007: Mike Conley
2006: Brandon Roy; Randy Foye
2005: Deron Williams; Chris Paul; Raymond Felton
2004: Ben Gordon; Shaun Livingston; Devin Harris
2003: Kirk Hinrich; TJ Ford
2002: Jay Williams; Dajuan Wagner
2001: None
2000: Jamal Crawford
1999: Steve Francis; Baron Davis; Andre Miller; Jason Terry
1998: Mike Bibby; Jason Williams

The NBA scouts are obviously pretty good at sizing up point guards and tweener shooting guards -- way more often than not, they get it right. The NBA scouts thought highly enough of Jay Williams to draft him #2 overall. Thus, it is way more likely that Jay Williams would have been a very good NBA point guard than a bust.

That's my conclusion. Feel free to form your own. Or if you're BPV or JZV, wait until Hat forms an opinion of his own, and then simply restate that opinion.
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I don't care about others' opinions, yours is clueless. That list is full of non point guards and true point guards. If believe Qilliams to be a true PG, you're completely lost. If any scout assumed he was going to be a PG, be didn't watch.

Tell me about something from Williams' Bulls days that led you to believe he was going to get it done at the NBA level? Duke has horses of solid to great collegiate guys who had JP prayer at the NBA level and Williams was one.
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#369
#369
kidbourbon said:
Some of them are tweeners from a position perspective, so let's just say "very good NBA players":
Derrick Rose; Brandon Roy; Chris Paul; Deron Williams; Mike Bibby; Baron Davis, Ben Gordon, Devin Harris, Jason Terry; Kirk Hinrich (was elite at one point...has dropped off a bit); OJ Mayo will be solid (he could have arguably be listed as a pg out of college).

The following guys aren't scrubs by any means:
Steve Francis (used to be good); Jason Williams; Andre Miller; TJ Ford; Jamal Crawford; Raymond Felton, Randy Foye

Mike Conley may still pan out. Too early to tell on Russel Westbrook or DJ Augustin.

Shaun Livingston -- not his fault.

We can argue about the merits of each of these guys and whether they are elite or just competent. But only one of them was a bust. So your argument that Jay Williams would have been an all-out bust and would have sucked as a pro is contrary to ten years of evidence.
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Now, narrow that down to the actual PGs, about 6 of them, and tell me which of the 6 footers was a mediocre shooting, shoot first, pass later PG. Hint: Chris Paul would be closest, but has better handle and is about 3 times quicker than Williams is.

I know you think I know nothing, and that's fine, but had I tried to pass off that silly list as PGs, I would quit posting about basketball altogether.
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#370
#370
kidbourbon said:
A couple things:
1) BPV and JZV: Form your own opinions, or at least try. If I wanted to hear Hat's opinion twice, I would simply re-read his posts
2) I'm backing TennNC in the Jay Williams debate. History backs us up. Here goes.
Points guards drafted in the top ten over the last ten years:

2008: Derrick Rose; Russell Westbrook; DJ Augustin (OJ Mayo listed as SG)
2007: Mike Conley
2006: Brandon Roy; Randy Foye
2005: Deron Williams; Chris Paul; Raymond Felton
2004: Ben Gordon; Shaun Livingston; Devin Harris
2003: Kirk Hinrich; TJ Ford
2002: Jay Williams; Dajuan Wagner
2001: None
2000: Jamal Crawford
1999: Steve Francis; Baron Davis; Andre Miller; Jason Terry
1998: Mike Bibby; Jason Williams

The NBA scouts are obviously pretty good at sizing up point guards and tweener shooting guards -- way more often than not, they get it right. The NBA scouts thought highly enough of Jay Williams to draft him #2 overall. Thus, it is way more likely that Jay Williams would have been a very good NBA point guard than a bust.

That's my conclusion. Feel free to form your own. Or if you're BPV or JZV, wait until Hat forms an opinion of his own, and then simply restate that opinion.
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Oh, I get it now. Because these players had various levels of success to a degree Williams was guaranteed to be a good pro?

And out of your list there are exactly two point guards a team could win a title with.
 
#371
#371
hatvol96 said:
Hinrich and Felton are so good their teams have drafted another point guard with them on the roster. Jamal Crawford, who plays about as many minutes as I do at point guard, is such a contributor that he's spent his career being traded from bad team to bad team. The planet on which Kirk Hinrich is, was, or ever will be an "elite" player has never existed. The fact Sacramento became an NBA power upon trading Jason Williams is very instructive. Jason Terry has rarely seen the point since he went to Dallas. Brandon Roy plays the 3 as much as he does the 1. Also, I'm going to assume you didn't do the numerical comparison of rookie numbers I mentioned.
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Hinrich made the US National team. That is one of twelve spots, which I think you have to sort of call elite.

I fully realize that Terry and Roy don't really play the point anymore. I qualified that several posts ago.

You play 38 minutes a game? I'm surprised I've never heard of you. Do you also score 18 pts a game? I should pick you up on my fantasy team.

Speaking of 38 minutes a game, that is what Felton plays. He also averages 14pts and 7 assists a game. Wow, those sound sort of like Mookie Blaylock numbers, don't they? And this was my original point. When you start comparing these guys to Isiaiah Thomas, you are speaking to a straw man.
 
#372
#372
hatvol96 said:
Hinrich and Felton are so good their teams have drafted another point guard with them on the roster. Jamal Crawford, who plays about as many minutes as I do at point guard, is such a contributor that he's spent his career being traded from bad team to bad team. The planet on which Kirk Hinrich is, was, or ever will be an "elite" player has never existed. The fact Sacramento became an NBA power upon trading Jason Williams is very instructive. Jason Terry has rarely seen the point since he went to Dallas. Brandon Roy plays the 3 as much as he does the 1. Also, I'm going to assume you didn't do the numerical comparison of rookie numbers I mentioned.
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No, I did not do said numerical comparison. I will be happy to look into that later.
 
#373
#373
#374
#374
hatvol96 said:
That's now the mandated level guys will play at before the NBA. You can certainly get an indication of a player's ability. However, as the fact multiple people on here kept trying to pass Chris Lofton off as NBA material despite being tols by those of us on this board who actually watch the league that he had zero shot indicates, college success is much less a predictor than a guy's physical skills and competitive nature.
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I hear the argument, but how else do you determine that than what they do on the court? It sounds like you're saying that JWill had the physical skills but not the competitive nature, right? And I'm saying that he had enough competitive nature to win a NC and impress the hell out of not only me, but apparently some NBA scouts.

And I will add that those on here touting Lofton's NBA potential weren't scouts.
 
#375
#375
kidbourbon said:
Hinrich made the US National team. That is one of twelve spots, which I think you have to sort of call elite.

I fully realize that Terry and Roy don't really play the point anymore. I qualified that several posts ago.

You play 38 minutes a game? I'm surprised I've never heard of you. Do you also score 18 pts a game? I should pick you up on my fantasy team.

Speaking of 38 minutes a game, that is what Felton plays. He also averages 14pts and 7 assists a game. Wow, those sound sort of like Mookie Blaylock numbers, don't they? And this was my original point. When you start comparing these guys to Isiaiah Thomas, you are speaking to a straw man.
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If you're saying Jamal Crawford is a point guard, I can safely assume you've never watched him play a minute in the NBA.
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