The Thread Where We Debate About Healthcare in America

#126
#126
volkyries said:
So if he works a 12 hr day, he is devoting 7 minutes to each patient. An 8 hour day, he would spend less than 5 mins on each and that leaves no time for anything else (eating, bathroom/smoke breaks, surfing volnation, etc) while working those hours. That would certainly make me feel confident of his diagnosis.
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This happens WAY more than most people would feel comfortable knowing.
 
#127
#127
landscapingvol said:
So the rich purposely look for substandard healthcare? Are you arguing for the best healthcare system with the best treatments or are you arguing for just average like the education system?
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Our healthcare widely varies over the United States and obviously the rich can afford much better healthcare.

Regarding education, that's another area where the United States is lower again while our European friends are higher on STEM subjects. Surprise.
 
#128
#128
midnight orange said:
No. 1 + 1= 2. That's 2 countries, the UK and the US. If you wanted to exclude the US, you should have stated so.
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Well, in my view, the US is not a socialized healthcare system, for the most part. Only certain people qualify for care through the government.
 
#129
#129
USMC-TNVOL said:
Yet we face a worse crisis of our own. People without healthcare, crappy healthcare while overpriced, people going into debt because of costs, and avoiding seeing a doctor because they cannot afford it. No system is perfect and probably won't ever be but I'm not going to let my healthcare future sit in the hands of healthcare corporations who only want profit and will lobby as much as possible to keep the status quo.

You people need to see beyond party lines on issues. That's why nothing can get done in this country.
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party line? They both suck.

ACA has cost me almost 10,000 dollars over 4 years. no politics in that. it sucks. and that 10k is the delta between what I was spending and what I spend now, so in reality I spend far more than 10k. oh yeah. I don't use it either. I had health insurance as insurance, not something that got used every day. but I chose that, and I was able to have a plan and a cost that accommodated that. ACA took that away, universal health care will further remove the care of my health from my hands. I don't want the government to tell me how to take care of my body, or how much I should spend, without getting anything back. I worked hard for what I had, to provide for myself. now I am crippled by the government in an attempt to prop up those who can't.

everything about it was terrible, planning (no conversations, You have to vote for it to see what is in it), implementations (the failed network and reoccuring issues), the tax/fine/tax forcing people to get it (how good can it be if people are forced to get it), results (fewer doctors, more paperwork, fewer providers).

nothing partisan in my beliefs that it sucks. I know it sucks from first hand experience of getting railroaded by it. I put it right up there with the Patriot Act as far as removing freedom from the American people. it was a huge overstep by the government that was designed to fail to push to single payer. I will not thank the government for screwing us over once to ensure we get screwed over again later.

Twisting someone's arm to force them to contribute is far worse than that person not contributing. And I won't speak for anyone else but ACA dried up how much money I could donate. I used to regularly give to St. Judes, several thousand a year. Now I am lucky to send them a few hundred. and all the other charities I gave to I have had to abandon. So while you enjoy access to health care there are kids who aren't getting the money they used to and should be receiving, so don't play the sanctimonious card with me.
 
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#130
#130
USMC-TNVOL said:
They still have those systems and people are using them. They will fix their issues as they go along unlike us where we just sit with the same ****ty system.

As I already said, what's worse than people dying or suffering because they can't afford healthcare? "Socialized medicine" is a boogeyman word for you and you would rather have people suffer and die or drown in debt than have a system that at least provides care for all and is more affordable.
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whats worse? The government telling you can't try to save your child. Alfie Evans not allowed to leave country, UK court says - CNN

eff government overwatch, I want to be in control. If I can't afford it its on me. in your system I have no control over my fate, or the fate of my loved ones.
 
#131
#131
volkyries said:
Everyone dies, the question really is, would their outcomes have been better if they were to foot the whole bill themselves under a completely private system.

Since the article mentioned chronic diseases then I doubt they would since those are the first patients insurance companies would get rid of if they had the chance. They would probably just wait to die while bankrupting their family in that case.
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oh wait your magical governments do that to.

to the back of the waiting you unhealthy sob.

No surgery for smokers or the obese: Policy in UK stirs debate - CNN
 
#132
#132
LouderVol said:
party line? They both suck.

ACA has cost me almost 10,000 dollars over 4 years. no politics in that. it sucks. and that 10k is the delta between what I was spending and what I spend now, so in reality I spend far more than 10k. oh yeah. I don't use it either. I had health insurance as insurance, not something that got used every day. but I chose that, and I was able to have a plan and a cost that accommodated that. ACA took that away, universal health care will further remove the care of my health from my hands. I don't want the government to tell me how to take care of my body, or how much I should spend, without getting anything back. I worked hard for what I had, to provide for myself. now I am crippled by the government in an attempt to prop up those who can't.

everything about it was terrible, planning (no conversations, You have to vote for it to see what is in it), implementations (the failed network and reoccuring issues), the tax/fine/tax forcing people to get it (how good can it be if people are forced to get it), results (fewer doctors, more paperwork, fewer providers).

nothing partisan in my beliefs that it sucks. I know it sucks from first hand experience of getting railroaded by it. I put it right up there with the Patriot Act as far as removing freedom from the American people. it was a huge overstep by the government that was designed to fail to push to single payer. I will not thank the government for screwing us over once to ensure we get screwed over again later.

Twisting someone's arm to force them to contribute is far worse than that person not contributing. And I won't speak for anyone else but ACA dried up how much money I could donate. I used to regularly give to St. Judes, several thousand a year. Now I am lucky to send them a few hundred. and all the other charities I gave to I have had to abandon. So while you enjoy access to health care there are kids who aren't getting the money they used to and should be receiving, so don't play the sanctimonious card with me.
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The bolded is bullsh!t provided that the people that elect not to pay still get treatment. Why pay when you know that in an emergent situation... you are still getting treatment. Don't wanna pay? Then you better be ready to pay in advance or have the paramedics just move you to the side of the road.
 
#133
#133
Vol_Doc said:
This is an interesting angle. I agree about insurance companies. However, single payer would be awful. All you have to do is look at the VA health system as an example.

My thought is that insurance should be owned by the patients. There are examples of this model around the country. Basically, the patients pay into the plan, and after expenses, any profit is returned to the patients as a refund. This encourages more efficient utilization and, hopefully, better self-care. You are essentially rewarded for being healthy. Would be tricky to apply this model across the country, though. It really should be a state level design.
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this is interesting. maybe build off the Kaiser model with the one stop shops that serve a locality. The credit union of healthcare.
 
#134
#134
ClearwaterVol said:
The bolded is bullsh!t provided that the people that elect not to pay still get treatment. Why pay when you know that in an emergent situation... you are still getting treatment. Don't wanna pay? Then you better be ready to pay in advance or have the paramedics just move you to the side of the road.
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I am talking about a charity/donation case. not healthcare. everyone should pay their own way. but no one should be forced to pay for others. IMO it is worse to force someone to give to charity than it is for that person to not give to charity.
 
#135
#135
USMC-TNVOL said:
Our healthcare widely varies over the United States and obviously the rich can afford much better healthcare.

Regarding education, that's another area where the United States is lower again while our European friends are higher on STEM subjects. Surprise.
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What America are you referring to where people didn’t/don’t have access to healthcare? I literally opened up the phone book when I made 10$ per hour and purchased an insurance plan. Anyone who made less than that has always had other options. Do you consider 10$ an hour as wealthy? The minimum wage today is higher than that in some states
 
#136
#136
landscapingvol said:
What America are you referring to where people didn’t/don’t have access to healthcare? I literally opened up the phone book when I made 10$ per hour and purchased an insurance plan. Anyone who made less than that has always had other options. Do you consider 10$ an hour as wealthy? The minimum wage today is higher than that in some states
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I always love people acting like there were people dying in the streets before 2013.
 
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#137
#137
USMC-TNVOL said:
Our healthcare widely varies over the United States and obviously the rich can afford much better healthcare.

Regarding education, that's another area where the United States is lower again while our European friends are higher on STEM subjects. Surprise.
Click to expand...

It was once at the top during the mid 20th century when states controlled the education system just like the healthcare system. Guess what the common factor is that led to the downfall of them both? Federal control and regulations, it isn’t that difficult to understand
 
#138
#138
as far as a solution.

I like the community based/supported idea with a return on profits.

I would be much more open to a government supported healthcare if it just covered life and death, as in you are actively dying. Its BS that it covers parents who let the television raise their kids who take their kid in every weak so they can stay hopped up on cough syrup and out of the parents hair.
 
#139
#139
LouderVol said:
Its BS that it covers parents who let the television raise their kids who take their kid in every weak so they can stay hopped up on cough syrup and out of the parents hair.
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Are you saying you don't enjoy tripping on Robitussin?
 
#141
#141
volkyries said:
Shouldn't this be a good thing for patients? If someone qualified to diagnose/treat smaller issues/common ailments, it should be allow more access to healthcare for the patient and should make it cheaper assuming mid-levels don't get paid the same as a doctor. It would also free doctor time to focus more on complex issues which is what he is trained for. I could see how this would be a negative for doctors though, since it takes the easy, billable cases and gives them to someone else which means less income for the doctor.



So if he works a 12 hr day, he is devoting 7 minutes to each patient. An 8 hour day, he would spend less than 5 mins on each and that leaves no time for anything else (eating, bathroom/smoke breaks, surfing volnation, etc) while working those hours. That would certainly make me feel confident of his diagnosis.
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You are correct, to a degree. The training is definitely not equivalent, so the lesser trained professionals are more likely to miss or misdiagnose or order more tests than necessary. Don't get me wrong, though. There are some amazing mid-levels out there, just like there are some terrible doctors.

As to your second point, you are interpreting that correctly. Patients hate it, as well. You're definitely a number in a practice like that. Barely any time with the doc.
 
#142
#142
GAVol said:
I'm in a faith based co-op that works exactly like that. It feels somewhat like a throwback to the old days when people carried major medical insurance and paid for the rest.
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It's really a great model. To further specify, I would have the refund be scaled based on your utilization, so the healthier you are, the larger the refund.
 
#143
#143
landscapingvol said:
It was once at the top during the mid 20th century when states controlled the education system just like the healthcare system. Guess what the common factor is that led to the downfall of them both? Federal control and regulations, it isn’t that difficult to understand
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Yet those models are higher level than state level in Europe yet they consistently rank higher than us. Wheres your proof that state level is so much better? State level means states will have varying requirement for education which is absolutely stupid and the same for healthcare.

It must be difficult for you to understand.
 
#145
#145
I think Papa Johns is pretty good...Order extra cheese and Parmesan and not too shabby.
Not good for ur health though. Gotta have pepperoni though.
 
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#146
#146
USMC-TNVOL said:
Yet those models are higher level than state level in Europe yet they consistently rank higher than us. Wheres your proof that state level is so much better? State level means states will have varying requirement for education which is absolutely stupid and the same for healthcare.

It must be difficult for you to understand.
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What was the last program run by the federal government that was timely, efficient, and successful?


I'll wait.




















Ok. Right. So they have finished every single project in history late, over budget, and with varying levels of mediocrity on quality...but let's give them healthcare. One sixth of GDP. makes sense. You apparently have never been involved with any government project. The red tape alone adds 40% to the time and budget. You're in the military though, my dad retired a lt. Col...you see our military as the model of efficiency our healthcare should be? We are the strongest might the world has ever known...but efficient? Really?
 
#148
#148
marcusluvsvols said:
What was the last program run by the federal government that was timely, efficient, and successful?


I'll wait.




















Ok. Right. So they have finished every single project in history late, over budget, and with varying levels of mediocrity on quality...but let's give them healthcare. One sixth of GDP. makes sense. You apparently have never been involved with any government project. The red tape alone adds 40% to the time and budget. You're in the military though, my dad retired a lt. Col...you see our military as the model of efficiency our healthcare should be? We are the strongest might the world has ever known...but efficient? Really?
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Actually, the Marine Corps is very efficient on a very tight budget. But I work for the VA as a contract specialist now.

I know there's deficiencies. But sure let's privatize everything, the military, police force, healthcare (remove veteran care, medicare, and medicaid), federal Pell Grant's, SNAP/food assistance programs, head start, and see where costs and efficiency go. I'm sure private companies will do everything the government does just fine and for the same price.
 
#149
#149
USMC-TNVOL said:
Actually, the Marine Corps is very efficient on a very tight budget. But I work for the VA as a contract specialist now.

I know there's deficiencies. But sure let's privatize everything, the military, police force, healthcare (remove veteran care, medicare, and medicaid), federal Pell Grant's, SNAP/food assistance programs, head start, and see where costs and efficiency go. I'm sure private companies will do everything the government does just fine and for the same price.
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Or maybe some of that stuff doesn’t need to be done?
 
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