The Tiger Woods saga

[GBO18]

Tiger has to be a lock for the Ryder Cup now right?

 

[volfanbill]

Els, Mickelson, Singh, Payne Stewart, Harrington all won 3 to 5 majors, I think. I can't think off hand who else won multiples. Of course Tiger winning 14 or whatever narrows the chances.

Unfortunately, Stewart never got to really face Tiger. Harrington got to where he couldn’t beat GA. As mentioned Singh and Mickelson have never been able to stay consistent. And I don’t mean week by week. I mean they’d go into hiding for over half a season. Can’t knock Els though I guess.

 

[1972 Grad]

I think Goosen got 2. O'Meara got 2. Maybe Lee Janzen? There were plenty of guys that played well for extended periods.

Goosen and Janzen did win 2 each. All 4 were U.S. Opens. Janzen's last win was the 1998 U.S. Open, so he was no factor for Woods. The U.S. Open has always had some strange winners, like Andy North twice. O'Meara was Tiger's buddy and wasn't afraid of him.

 

[1972 Grad]

Unfortunately, Stewart never got to really face Tiger. Harrington got to where he couldn’t beat GA. As mentioned Singh and Mickelson have never been able to stay consistent. And I don’t mean week by week. I mean they’d go into hiding for over half a season. Can’t knock Els though I guess.

I think Stewart died in 99, and Tiger won his 1st major in 97. Not positive without looking it up.

 

[ZZ13]

I've enjoyed the post-Tiger era better than the Tiger era. Mostly because I am not a fan of dynasties. I find those stretches boring and uninteresting (come on, you can't really enjoy knowing the Warriors are going to win it every year). Since Tiger's decade or so of dominance we have had a series of golfers with short Tiger-like bursts, only to fall back to the next one. First it was Rory with a bunch of clustered big wins and majors, then Spieth, then Day, then Dustin Johnson, then Justin Thomas. Can't wait to see who is up next for their 6-9 months of domination. Maybe it'll be Tiger.

 

[GAVol]

Tiger has to be a lock for the Ryder Cup now right?

I'd probably take him. Plus, he's now in the top 50, so that means he's in the Bridgestone and he'll be in the PGA the next week, so he's definitely got a shot to remove any doubt and get a Captain's Pick.

 

[05_never_again]

Deep? Maybe established, not deep during that era. No one had sticking power. Prove me wrong

You're comparing the depth then to what it is now. In the late 90s, the sport of golf wasn't as deep as it was now, and that's mostly because of Tiger.

What I mean by deep and established is that men's golf in 1997 wasn't like women's MMA when Ronda Rousey came along. No single player had sticking power, but there were a lot of guys who could play; some had multiple majors. There was nobody who won 7 or 8, but there were several who won 2 or 3. It wasn't like golf was some newfangled sport people were starting to try out and this new guy named Tiger came in and dominated a sport with a bunch of scrubs.

 

[volfanbill]

You're comparing the depth then to what it is now. In the late 90s, the sport of golf wasn't as deep as it was now, and that's mostly because of Tiger.

What I mean by deep and established is that men's golf in 1997 wasn't like women's MMA when Ronda Rousey came along. No single player had sticking power, but there were a lot of guys who could play; some had multiple majors. There was nobody who won 7 or 8, but there were several who won 2 or 3. It wasn't like golf was some newfangled sport people were starting to try out and this new guy named Tiger came in and dominated a sport with a bunch of scrubs.

You’re going in circles here. Of course there were lots that played. That’s a given. But, the top 20 of the late 90s/early 2000s would get destroyed by the top 20 today. Sure, the top five of any given time might hang with today’s top five, but as you mentioned (that I’ve brought up a lot), twenty guys right now could win any given week. Prime Tiger today doesn’t come close to the results Prime Tiger got in 98-2005

 

[05_never_again]

You’re going in circles here. Of course there were lots that played. That’s a given. But, the top 20 of the late 90s/early 2000s would get destroyed by the top 20 today. Sure, the top five of any given time might hang with today’s top five, but as you mentioned (that I’ve brought up a lot), twenty guys right now could win any given week. Prime Tiger today doesn’t come close to the results Prime Tiger got in 98-2005

"Not as deep as it is today" doesn't mean that it was thin in the late 90s. That's my point. Fields in the 80s and 90s probably weren't as deep as they were in the 60s and 70s either, because in those days you had multiple legends playing the game. Sports ebb and flow. The 80s and 90s were between golf's two boom periods; the first ushered in by Nicklaus, Palmer, Player, etc in the 60s and 70s and the second ushered in by Tiger from the late 90s - late 2000s.

At one point Tiger was dominating his sport like UConn dominates women's college basketball today, except men's golf in the late 90s was deeper than women's college basketball today.

 

[superdave1984]

You’re going in circles here. Of course there were lots that played. That’s a given. But, the top 20 of the late 90s/early 2000s would get destroyed by the top 20 today. Sure, the top five of any given time might hang with today’s top five, but as you mentioned (that I’ve brought up a lot), twenty guys right now could win any given week. Prime Tiger today doesn’t come close to the results Prime Tiger got in 98-2005

Can't really compare eras like that. The advances in the equipment is too much.
Here's an interesting question: Put Jack and Tiger in a 4 round winner take all stroke play tournament. Would you take Jack, in his prime, with today's equipment or Tiger, in his prime, with 70's equipment?

I think Jack would kick Tiger's butt. Tiger may be the most influential golfer ever, but Jack is the better player.

 

[volfanbill]

"Not as deep as it is today" doesn't mean that it was thin in the late 90s. That's my point. Fields in the 80s and 90s probably weren't as deep as they were in the 60s and 70s either, because in those days you had multiple legends playing the game. Sports ebb and flow. The 80s and 90s were between golf's two boom periods; the first ushered in by Nicklaus, Palmer, Player, etc in the 60s and 70s and the second ushered in by Tiger from the late 90s - late 2000s.

At one point Tiger was dominating his sport like UConn dominates women's college basketball today, except men's golf in the late 90s was deeper than women's college basketball today.

I’ll say it then. It was thin. Very thin. Of the “big” names mentioned, only two or three had any staying power. Tiger belongs in the discussion of GOAT, but his competition in his prime was very thin. Even the stars that were there were wildly inconsistent from week to week or were cut down early in their prime for one reason or another.

 

[05_never_again]

Can't really compare eras like that. The advances in the equipment is too much.
Here's an interesting question: Put Jack and Tiger in a 4 round winner take all stroke play tournament. Would you take Jack, in his prime, with today's equipment or Tiger, in his prime, with 70's equipment?

I think Jack would kick Tiger's butt. Tiger may be the most influential golfer ever, but Jack is the better player.

Jack will absolutely go down as having the better career, unless a miracle occurs and Tiger ends up getting 19+ majors.

However, it is really difficult to argue that any golfer was more dominant for any period of time than Tiger was from 1999 - 2002. He won 7 out of a possible 16 majors (44%). He almost replicated the dominance to that same level from 2005 - 2008 (won 6 out of a possible 16). I believe the best Jack was able to do over a 4 year period was 5 out of 16 majors (1963 - 1966, 1970 - 1973).

Jack never had a 4 year period where he dominated the sport to the extent Tiger did, but he was more consistent, particularly at winning majors, over a longer period of time. Tiger had 2 full years in the middle of his career where he retooled his swing and went without a major (2003 - 2004), and of course he fell off the face of the Earth post-2009. His major victories came in a couple of big chunks while Jack's were spread more evenly throughout his career. Honestly, if you take both players in their primes, Tiger probably edges out Jack. But not over the spans of their entire careers.

I'd love to see what would have happened had Tiger not had the scandal. I think it was clear even before the scandal that he was slightly losing his complete and utter dominance of the sport. I think it is reasonable to assume he would've dealt with the same injuries he's dealt with if the scandal had not occurred. However, his mind would have been right, he was only 34, and he "only" need 5 more majors to surpass Jack. I think he absolutely would have done it, although they would be harder for him to come by than in the past.

 

[1972 Grad]

Jack will absolutely go down as having the better career, unless a miracle occurs and Tiger ends up getting 19+ majors.

However, it is really difficult to argue that any golfer was more dominant for any period of time than Tiger was from 1999 - 2002. He won 7 out of a possible 16 majors (44%). He almost replicated the dominance to that same level from 2005 - 2008 (won 6 out of a possible 16). I believe the best Jack was able to do over a 4 year period was 5 out of 16 majors (1963 - 1966, 1970 - 1973).

Jack never had a 4 year period where he dominated the sport to the extent Tiger did, but he was more consistent, particularly at winning majors, over a longer period of time. Tiger had 2 full years in the middle of his career where he retooled his swing and went without a major (2003 - 2004), and of course he fell off the face of the Earth post-2009. His major victories came in a couple of big chunks while Jack's were spread more evenly throughout his career. Honestly, if you take both players in their primes, Tiger probably edges out Jack. But not over the spans of their entire careers.

I'd love to see what would have happened had Tiger not had the scandal. I think it was clear even before the scandal that he was slightly losing his complete and utter dominance of the sport. I think it is reasonable to assume he would've dealt with the same injuries he's dealt with if the scandal had not occurred. However, his mind would have been right, he was only 34, and he "only" need 5 more majors to surpass Jack. I think he absolutely would have done it, although they would be harder for him to come by than in the past.

What we aren't taking into account is that both Tiger and Jack were winners, and winners on that level aren't necessarily based on just their skill of how well they can hit certain shots. It is how mentally tough they are, and how well they stand up to the pressure.

I have seen other players impress me more on the range than Jack Nicklaus did, although he could hit some incredible tee shots and long irons. So could Tom Weiskopf. I first saw Jack play when he was 27, so I saw him in his prime.

I am sure that Tiger had more shots, simply because players get better in all sports, and Tiger worked on all aspects of his game more. Jack had a very mediocre short game until later in his career, but he could win without it. If they had both been in their primes at the same time with the same equipment, and the same desire to win, who knows? They were both the best of their era.

I'm sure that the same case could be made for Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, Byron Nelson, Bobby Jones, etc.

 

[05_never_again]

I'm sure that the same case could be made for Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, Byron Nelson, Bobby Jones, etc.

Jack said the best ball striker he ever saw was Ben Hogan.

 

[GAVol]

Jack said the best ball striker he ever saw was Ben Hogan.

I've seen a lot of guys say that. I'll never forget being at the practice tee at Augusta when I was a kid. Sam Snead was talking to Curtis Strange and reached into his bag and grabbed his driver and started effortlessly striping high fades. He was 75 at the time.

 

[05_never_again]

I've seen a lot of guys say that. I'll never forget being at the practice tee at Augusta when I was a kid. Sam Snead was talking to Curtis Strange and reached into his bag and grabbed his driver and started effortlessly striping high fades. He was 75 at the time.

Wish I was around to see something like that.

Watching pros on the range is almost as amazing as seeing them actually play. When you look at the launch and ball flight of the drives Dustin Johnson hits, it looks like the ball is being hit by some kind of contraption or machine rather than a human being. The ball just seemingly goes on and on forever. The irons too. They carry for ages, then seemingly fall straight down. I don't know how they do it.

Golf is an amazing sport because you, as an amateur duffer, can drop a ball in that exact spot and try and hit that exact same shot. You're personally familiar with the degree of difficulty. I'll never be personally familiar with the degree of difficulty of being an NFL QB, guarding LeBron, or trying to make a save on Ovechkin in a shootout. But it is entirely possible for me to go to Scotland, get on at Carnoustie, put a ball into that bunker on 10, and try and hit that shot Tiger hit on Sunday.

 

[1972 Grad]

Jack said the best ball striker he ever saw was Ben Hogan.

I saw Hogan play twice in person. First time at the 1965 Carling World Open in Sutton, Mass. Second and last was the 1967 U.S. Open at Baltusrol in Springfield N.J.where I got his autograph on the front of the program. Hogan finshed in the top 10 at the Masters in 1967, and shot a 3rd round 66 for the low round of the tournament and finished T10.

By this time., Hogan was early to mid-50's, and hit it pretty darn good. I read that he had 3 -3rd place finishes in 1964 out of 5 tournaments entered.

 

[1972 Grad]

I've seen a lot of guys say that. I'll never forget being at the practice tee at Augusta when I was a kid. Sam Snead was talking to Curtis Strange and reached into his bag and grabbed his driver and started effortlessly striping high fades. He was 75 at the time.

I saw Snead play a few times at the GGO in Greensboro, and saw him lead the 1966 PGA at Firestone in Akron after 2 rounds. He had the yips so bad that he double hit a putt in round 3, and started putting croquet style. He wound up tied for 7th. He was an amazing player, same age as Hogan.

 

[OrangeSticks]

... But it is entirely possible for me to go to Scotland, get on at Carnoustie, put a ball into that bunker on 10, and try and hit that shot Tiger hit on Sunday.

If you manage to pull that one off, go try this one!!

ps. Hope this works!!

[youtube]http://youtu.be/bHZ3x-A_-AM[/youtube]

 

[peaygolf]

I saw Snead play a few times at the GGO in Greensboro, and saw him lead the 1966 PGA at Firestone in Akron after 2 rounds. He had the yips so bad that he double hit a putt in round 3, and started putting croquet style. He wound up tied for 7th. He was an amazing player, same age as Hogan.

Snead was great, but a grade A pecker-wood. Moe Norman was the best pure striker of the ball I ever saw in person. An absolute machine.:good!:

 

[1972 Grad]

Snead was great, but a grade A pecker-wood. Moe Norman was the best pure striker of the ball I ever saw in person. An absolute machine.:good!:

One year at the Masters, my brother and I took our assistant pro (probably 21 years old) with us to a practice round. He got up his courage and asked Snead a question. Snead was an ass to the kid.

An interesting Moe Norman story is that my brother was somewhere in Florida playing golf and wound up on the practice tee next to Moe. This was probably in the 1970's and not that many people were familiar with him at the time. My brother had read an article about Moe in some magazine. I had never heard of him at that time.


He said that Moe was wearing clothes that were dirty and looked like he had slept in them. He asked Moe ……."aren't you Moe Norman?' He said Moe answered...."who wants to know?" My brother spoke with him very briefly, then watched him hit perfect shot after shot.

I think that the best pure ball striker that I have seen may be Boo Weekly. George Knudsen struck it awfully well too.

 

[peaygolf]

One year at the Masters, my brother and I took our assistant pro (probably 21 years old) with us to a practice round. He got up his courage and asked Snead a question. Snead was an ass to the kid.

An interesting Moe Norman story is that my brother was somewhere in Florida playing golf and wound up on the practice tee next to Moe. This was probably in the 1970's and not that many people were familiar with him at the time. My brother had read an article about Moe in some magazine. I had never heard of him at that time.


He said that Moe was wearing clothes that were dirty and looked like he had slept in them. He asked Moe ……."aren't you Moe Norman?' He said Moe answered...."who wants to know?" My brother spoke with him very briefly, then watched him hit perfect shot after shot.

I think that the best pure ball striker that I have seen may be Boo Weekly. George Knudsen struck it awfully well too.

Snead, Trevino, and Garry Carter are the biggest jerks (sports related) I ever met. I watched Moe hit balls in Titusville, Fla back in 94. It was a clinic of perfection.


Funny that Knudson and Moe are both Canadian.

 

[1972 Grad]

Snead, Trevino, and Garry Carter are the biggest jerks (sports related) I ever met. I watched Moe hit balls in Titusville, Fla back in 94. It was a clinic of perfection.


Funny that Knudson and Moe are both Canadian.

I though about that when I was typing. I agree about Trevino. First time that I saw him was at the 67 U.S. Open. Nobody, and I mean nobody had heard of Lee Trevino at that time. He was a local Texas pro that qualified and wound up finishing 4th, I think. I thought that he looked funny with his pants 3 inches too short and he was wearing white socks. Never met Carter.

 

[1972 Grad]

Snead, Trevino, and Garry Carter are the biggest jerks (sports related) I ever met. I watched Moe hit balls in Titusville, Fla back in 94. It was a clinic of perfection.


Funny that Knudson and Moe are both Canadian.

Another jerk was Curtis Strange.

 

[peaygolf]

Another jerk was Curtis Strange.

well.....I met him and talked to him for about 15 mins at the PGA Merch Show back in 96/97 and he was very nice and seemed authentic (he was double fisted). BUT....I have heard others say what you said. I could have just caught him on a "good" day.