The UF spread as trainiing ground for the NFL

#26
#26
voltilifall said:
that's completely beside the point, all i was saying is that the college players who are really great will be successful in the nfl regardless of collegiate system. the real problem with the spread quarterbacks that have been named in this thread is that they tend to be undersized with weak (but accurate arms) if peyton ran a spread in college he would still be peyton today.
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Yeah - that's all hypothetical.

And how is it beside the point? It's not. It's not directly what you were talking about but it's still very important to the argument and you have to consider it. I wasn't attempting to argue the point you directly mentioned - but just offer a counter to why the spread isn't a plus.

Players can fizzle out in certain "systems" or put up very average numbers where they normally would have been really good in another. That's the most relevant issue there - but bad position coaches/head coaches can also contribute to potential great players never becoming great.

And Tebow is a really great player who is big and a fairly strong arm - not quite the accuracy. And who knows how much Percy Harvin would have made from the draft if his WR skills were actually polished for the NFL and wasn't drafted as an athlete. That's something the players might consider too.
 
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#27
#27
QB- All around.
RB- oregon, i guess? with thier recent success?
TE- arent really what the league looks for given a true spread style TE.*
WR- Route Running
OL- Not that much effect, i would imagine.
 
#28
#28
Brees and Orton were in a pro style spread offense that was geared toward pass, pass, pass. They threw NFL passes and routes. I tend to view Oregon as a similar pro style spread concept as well.

FL runs an Athletic back yard football type spread. run to the open space and make plays and K.I.S.S(keep it simple stupid). Lots of trick plays and less complicated throws. Tebow basically throws only screens, slants, and go routes. You can put up nice numbers in college but come NFL practice you are way behind the other guys that learned all the basics and fundementals in college.

They got Scott Loeffler to add some of the NFL style concepts to their game or just to say that they have. Either way it is a recruiting tool cuz he is dang good with QBs.
 
#30
#30
voltilifall said:
i agree that spread qb's tend to have less success in the nfl...however, i was responding to your claim that "no spread qb has ever done ANYTHING in the nfl" because that is just not true.
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There are different versions of the spread. I never considered the offense that Purdue ran as the spread. I knew someone would bring it up eventually. I just consider the teams like Florida, Texas Tech, West Virginia, Hawaii, Oregon, and Missouri as running the true spread. I think it's kinda weird that the only 2 QBs that can be named came from one school...
 
#31
#31
Lord Vader said:
There are different versions of the spread. I never considered the offense that Purdue ran as the spread. I knew someone would bring it up eventually. I just consider the teams like Florida, Texas Tech, West Virginia, Hawaii, Oregon, and Missouri as running the true spread. I think it's kinda weird that the only 2 QBs that can be named came from one school...
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And Tennessee now employs the guy that brought that offense to Purdue.
 
#32
#32
their really is no issue here as i agree that the nfl is less likely to draft a spread quarterback, however i will not assume that a quarterback will automatically be unsuccessful at the next level due to their collegiate system.
 
#33
#33
voltilifall said:
their really is no issue here as i agree that the nfl is less likely to draft a spread quarterback, however i will not assume that a quarterback will automatically be unsuccessful at the next level due to their collegiate system.
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Jeff Tedford thanks you.
 
#37
#37
voltilifall said:
the cal coach? i don't understand the reference please explain.
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You said in a previous post that you will not automatically assume a college QB will fail because of his college system.

Tedford's QBs have sucked in the NFL up until Aaron Rodgers.
 
#38
#38
matts42012volfan said:
This helps us with Scroggins.
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I think thats what the argument is all about here. From a recruiting standpoint, is it conclusive that the spread is an inferior place to prepare a skill player to be drafted and succeed in the NFL.

Until recently, no powerhouse college football program ran the spread. It was all pro-style I formation, wishbone, or fun and gun.

UF is the first powerhouse program to run the spread and the first to put a slew of Rival's 100 athletes into that kind of offense. It is those top tier athletes that comprise the bulk of future NFL draftees.

So even though the spread has been around awhile, trying to look at the previous experience of lower tier athletes who did or did not make it to the NFL is comparing apples to oranges.

Meyer's first UF recruiting class just graduated and had three skill players drafted (rounds 1,4,5). Only UNC had as many. How they will do in the NFL is a guess. The first QB (Tebow) and the second QB (Brantley) are very likely to be first day picks. TE Aaron Hernandez will also likely be a first day pick when he comes out.

It's too early to conclude that these guys will be successful and it is difficult to reach a conclusion based upon a small number of athletes.

The experiment just began 4 years ago and the first results are just coming in. Time will tell.
 
#39
#39
Hernandez and Brantley would be legit NFL prospects regardless of where they had went or what style of O they played in.

Florida's track record with NFL WRs and QBs were awful before Meyer got there and he hasn't helped it out.
 
#40
#40
justingroves said:
Hernandez and Brantley would be legit NFL prospects regardless of where they had went or what style of O they played in.

Florida's track record with NFL WRs and QBs were awful before Meyer got there and he hasn't helped it out.
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In the case of Brantley and Hernandez, there are those who would argue that in spite of their making it to the NFL, they have still been harmed by the spread. I don't buy that.

As far as the pre-Meyer Gators, that's a whole different animal and outside the scope of this discussion. Those regimes produced a number of productive NFL running backs, but the current regime shouldn't get get saddled with that.
 
#42
#42
19SEP2009 said:
The prosecution comes to court here with no evidence. The defendant is found not guilty.
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Issue doesn't need to be debated. Anyone who even tries to defend it is a homer or has no common sense especially when considering QBs, RBs (due to lack of use), and WRs.
 
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#43
#43
19SEP2009 said:
Much controversy about whether this discussion belongs in individual player threads.

Not a subject I personally an initiating, but find myself responding to when an anti-thread post is entered related to a specific player.

Anyway, if anyone wants to have an intelligent discussion about the topic, it seems liike a worthy topic.

I'll be gone for the balance of the day but will be back later.

The only ground rules I would ask is that we try to keep the interaction 1:1 as much as possible. It's difficult to keep a logical dialogue when multiple people are coming at the issue simultaneously from different directions.

Also, if we can take turns trying to prove a point that would be helpful. Indicate the point you are trying to make and let's have a Q&A related to that point until we reach a conclusion one way or the other or to the point where we are deadlocked and we can agree to disagree.

I'm going to expect some rude posts. It's part of the territory. But I'll generally pass on responding to those unless I have a zippy one liner that is just too irresistible
to pass on. I won't be the initiator of any personal antagonism.

See you later.
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Note to self:
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! :crazy:
 
#44
#44
voltilifall said:
orton is the broncos starter...and to disprove your original argument i don't have to name five, i just have to name one. i agree that the spread qb's have less nfl success, but i disagree that the college system that a player is in will ultimately determine their nfl success. i think that great players will be successful regardless of system.
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So you think if Urban Meyer had gone to Notre Dame from Utah that Brady Quinn would be a first round pick?
 
#45
#45
voltilifall said:
i hate to agree with a gator, but drew brees was a spread quarterback in college. his offensive coordinator, in case you haven't heard, was one of the biggest proponents of the spread offense, and actually taught urban meyer a thing or two about it, i believe his name was jim chaney.
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There's quite a difference between the Spread OPTION and the Spread (similar to the Run N Shoot that USED to be implemented with some teams in the NFL). The first may be trendy in college, but the statistics don't lie...no matter how many gator trolls you have here. Tim Tebow fans are going to get a serious dose of reality in next April's draft. Most analysts were ripping him apart as a QB...saying if he gets drafted it will be as a TE/HB/FB/Athlete. Personally, without the spread option, Tebow was a good enough HS QB to develop into a very good NFL QB prospect. Meyer funked him over, IMHO. Sure he got 2 NC rings and a Heisman, but College FB likely going to be the end of Glory Road. If Texas Tech had beaten OU this past year, Graham Harrell would be getting similar accolades....yet he didn't even get drafted this year.
I remember also, a Nebraska QB or two who lived in the Penthouse, so to speak, in NCAA FB but ended up in the NFL Out-House.
Glory in College doesn't necessarily = glory days ahead in the NFL. Mr Tebow will find that out soon enough.
 
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#47
#47
voltilifall said:
but i disagree that the college system that a player is in will ultimately determine their nfl success. i think that great players will be successful regardless of system.
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The reason it hurts them is because it DOES NOT DEVELOP THE SKILLS NEEDED BY NFL TEAMS. The regular Spread (heavily pass-oriented offense) may help more than the Spread OPTION (Heavily RUN OPTION oriented offense), but it still masks weaknesses instead of allowing the QB to develop in fundamental areas.

Graham Harrell was a classic example. He struggled mightily at the Senior Bowl, whereas smaller college QB's were standing out. His footwork was terrible, as were his drops. Those are little fundamental things a team looks for, as well as arm strength and pocket presence.
Mike Leach's offense doesn't develop QB's well for the next level. That's not my opinion, that's the consensus in the NFL and media covering the draft...hence he wasn't projected to go off the board till the late rds...and didn't even get drafted (to my suprise).

The more HS QB's that see this...especially when Mr.Tebow is shunned, the more amplified the ripple effect will be. Fewer and fewer 5*QB's will sign with teams that run the spread option. I think it's going to kill RR at Michigan, and the Oregon Ducks.

In hindsight, I'm really happy that Hamilton chose Kiffin over Leach, and that Coach Johnson at GT wasn't courted. It might have brought some temporal success, but word is getting out about the Spread Option being a QB's equivalent to the old "Roach Motel." You can get in, but statistics say you won't get out
 
#48
#48
TENNaciousUTfan said:
There's quite a difference between the Spread OPTION and the Spread (similar to the Run N Shoot that USED to be implemented with some teams in the NFL). The first may be trendy in college, but the statistics don't lie...no matter how many gator trolls you have here. Tim Tebow fans are going to get a serious dose of reality in next April's draft. Most analysts were ripping him apart as a QB...saying if he gets drafted it will be as a TE/HB/FB/Athlete. Personally, without the spread option, Tebow was a good enough HS QB to develop into a very good NFL QB prospect. Meyer funked him over, IMHO. Sure he got 2 NC rings and a Heisman, but College FB likely going to be the end of Glory Road. If Texas Tech had beaten OU this past year, Graham Harrell would be getting similar accolades....yet he didn't even get drafted this year.
I remember also, a Nebraska QB or two who lived in the Penthouse, so to speak, in NCAA FB but ended up in the NFL Out-House.
Glory in College doesn't necessarily = glory days ahead in the NFL. Mr Tebow will find that out soon enough.
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i agree with you on tebow and most of your other statements...but my argument is that the truly great players will shine regardless of system. if alex smith was a great quarterback then he would be great in the nfl, he's not so therefore i think that he is not a great player. tebow is a great player in meyer's system but it is yet to be determined whether he can be a great player in any system and that is what he should be judged on in the end. the term "system quarterback" is often used to describe players like colt brennan and andre ware who put up monster numbers in college but don't translate to the next level, however i am of the opinion that a truly great quarterback will be great no matter what his system is. steve young didn't exactly run a pro-style offense at byu. the west coast offense is very similar to the spread in many way's and no-one has ever accused it of stunting a qb's growth. the flaw's of the spread in producing pro qb's i believe lies less in the system and more in the personnel, the 6-5 230lbs qb's with laser rocket arms aren't going to spread teams...so spread teams are getting smaller qb's. the nfl likes bigger quarterbacks, so if spread teams had bigger qb's then the nfl would draft them. no system would keep the nfl from drafting a player who was incredible at the combine and that is where spread quarterbacks come up short (figuratively and literally)
 
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