The you don't want to get involved in this discussion thread (split)

#851
#851
utvolpj said:
you likely don't understand because you attribute your morality to your religion without believing anyone could do it without.
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It's not that as much as it is that I find the existence of nonmaterial, transcendant moral principles (in a general sense) to be inconsistent with a notion that the universe and everything in it arose completely from random, natural processes (which, again, I assume atheists/agnostics believe).

That's really all I'm saying.

Now to be clear, I don't ascribe to this worldview. So to me, it's not at all surprising that atheists/agnostics have a sense of morality (even if I disagree with them on the particulars). That they do is entirely consistent with my worldview. And once we're in my worldview, then what's the written in the Bible definitely becomes relevant to the debate.
 
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#852
#852
gcbvol said:
The same religious morality that has been used to defend slavery, oppose women's right to vote and interracial marriage. Not bashing religion with this, but showing how even biblical morality has evolved.
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I disagree with those things, as well as the interpretation of the passages in the Bible used at one time to defend them.

But again, it takes a moral judgment presumably based on some standard to say that those things are wrong. I'm curious what that standard is for the atheist/agnostic and how I can know for certain that it should apply to me.
 
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#854
#854
vol2002 said:
I think my views on this as a bible-believing Christian have been expressed very well by other posters in this thread.

I'm really interested in understanding the views of the atheists and agnostics who have taken what I believe are some surprisingly strong positions on this.

Not to take this too far off track, but I'd be interested how they define the term "adult" and why that is an absolute definition for every person and every culture. I'd also be interested why they believe society absolutely "should be" built on expanding freedoms?

I guess where I'm going is I've always assumed atheists/agnostics believe this universe is ultimately some type of randomly occurring cosmic accident with no transcendant meaning or purpose. Coming from that framework, I've been curious how they can make statements that some things are "right" and other things are "wrong." What is the origin of this right/wrong framework? And specific to this debate, why is expanding marriage to homosexuals absolutely the "right" thing to do for ours and every other culture?
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Concepts of morality go back way before Christianity. They are both anthropogenic ideas in origin, however.
 
#855
#855
Oh, and my worldview of morality comes from logic/reason. Not a book that is rife in contradictions and, more importantly, malevolence supported by your purported God.
 
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#858
#858
ellisjb0 said:
Oh, and my worldview of morality comes from logic/reason. Not a book that is rife in contradictions and, more importantly, malevolence supported by your purported God.
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That's interesting. In your worldview, where do nonmaterial, transcendant laws of logic that govern how both you and I think come from? What natural, evolutionary process gave rise to them?

Why should they apply to both how you think and reach conclusions and how I think and reach conclusions, based on a given set of facts? Why do they apply across time and across cultures?

Again - we're talking about the way we "think," an inherently nonmaterial process.

Again, just trying to make sure I know the framework we are working in for this discussion.

For the record, I think worldview issues like this very much matter in to the broader question of how our culture should address the homosexual issue (among many others).

My concern is that the views expressed here by atheists/agnostics are ultimately arbitrary, based on the passing whims of our present day (under the guise of "evolution"). And I am deeply concerned by how those whims might change on other matters of moral consequence as we move forward.
 
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#863
#863
Burhead said:
Where is the right heterosexuals can marry, is that a new amendment? Personally I would like to see government out of the marriage business altogether.
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Governments have set up this in order to support a nuclear family structure. It has not really been successful when one looks at divorce rates. I agree that government should be out of the business altogether. The government also gives tax credits and welfare benefits for having children that are not tied to marital status so they also promote out of wedlock births. It is safe to say a certain president was right when he said the nine most feared words in the English language are "I'm from the government and I'm here to help". It is also a way for them to gain revenue through licenses etc. It is not a "right" for anyone though. The 10th ammendment gives the states the power to handle any issue like this.
 
#864
#864
gcbvol said:
Respectfully, it doesn't work like that for everyone. I spent several years begging for God to make me 'normal', and nothing changed. I was a devout Christian trying to deal with it. Did not matter. I know several others who had similar experiences to my own. If you feel God has answered your prayers and helped you I am sincerely very happy about that. Not everyone shares that experience, however.

If God exists I believe completely that He intended me to be gay. Obviously it wasn't an important enough issue for Him to do anything about it after years of begging.
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I first want to apologize I did not go back and read your post someone was referring me to, I was in a hurry and was not responding directly to you.

Second, thanks for the respectful post you gave.

I want you to know I care about you and others going through this and others that don't understand what being a Christian really is . I don't want you to take me wrong, because again I am trying to help and listen to what you say. You said you were a Christian, but then said if there is a God in later sentence and the two don't match up. I just want you to know what being a Christian means (I don't mean that to insult btw). Being a Christian is turning your life over to God to let him be LORD of your life. That be LORD over was something that took me time to sink in with me. You must then repent (like acknowledging you are going the wrong way).
To encourage you, there was a girl that was in a lesbian relationship that turned her life over to God and got out of that relationship. You may still have days were you struggle, but I promise God will see you through it. If you ever wonder if there is a God, look at his creation. The sun is just the right temperature, distance, and size. The ocean, mountains, and how perfectly the Earth works (trees giving off oxygen etc.) all the insects, animals, and how complex humans are. I will pray for you, and I don't mean that in obnoxious way, I truly do care, I hope you believe me.
 
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#866
#866
ellisjb0 said:
Oh, and my worldview of morality comes from logic/reason. Not a book that is rife in contradictions and, more importantly, malevolence supported by your purported God.
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The contradictions you claim are not there. You can try and prove it, but if you actually read the Bible, there are no contradictions. Context. Good try though
 
#868
#868
To me , its one of these "move on, nothing to see here" stories. The NFL and Missouri/NCAA(and ESPN...) will milk it for all its worth though.
 
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#869
#869
One thing that has been completely absent from this discussion is the romantic love that homosexuals feel for each other. I see the Christian side of the debate continuously point to lust as being something that everyone has to overcome. That is essentially making the demeaning assumption that homosexuals feel nothing but feelings of lust for each other. They also fall in love as deeply as heterosexuals do. I've got no problem with someone arguing that lustfulness and promiscuity can be problems (for anyone homo or hetero), but to argue that someone should ignore their heart their entire lives and tell themselves that any romantic love they feel for someone is morally wrong just makes no sense to me.

Not only that, but something like that is something you physically have no control over. I would argue that you have no logical choice over who you fall in love with.

To all those who believe homosexuality is a sin, do you honestly believe that God's will is for a huge group of people to reject any love they feel their entire lives? Or do you just tell yourselves that gay people don't feel the same love that straight people feel? From knowing gay couples I can tell you that's not true.
 
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#870
#870
jjay2518 said:
One thing that has been completely absent from this discussion is the romantic love that homosexuals feel for each other. I see the Christian side of the debate continuously point to lust as being something that everyone has to overcome. That is essentially making the demeaning assumption that homosexuals feel nothing but feelings of lust for each other. They also fall in love as deeply as heterosexuals do. I've got no problem with someone arguing that lustfulness and promiscuity can be problems (for anyone homo or hetero), but to argue that someone should ignore their heart their entire lives and tell themselves that any romantic love they feel for someone is morally wrong just makes no sense to me.

Not only that, but something like that is something you physically have no control over. I would argue that you have no logical choice over who you fall in love with.

To all those who believe homosexuality is a sin, do you honestly believe that God's will is for a huge group of people to reject any love they feel their entire lives? Or do you just tell yourselves that gay people don't feel the same love that straight people feel? From knowing gay couples I can tell you that's not true.
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Why can't people believe sodomy is wrong? I doubt the tug at the heartstrings approach is going to change people's minds. I don't care what two adults do behind closed doors and don't think the state should either. That doesn't mean I think it should matter if people find it vile whether it be based on religious or other reasons.
 
#872
#872
9296potsguy said:
I probably don't really want to get involved in this discussion as the title implies, but I found this survey interesting:

U.S. Adults Estimate That 25% of Americans Are Gay or Lesbian

But I'm just one of those crazy wackos that believes that politics and media get us off focus so that we don't concentrate on what's really going on in America.
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People are dumb. Did they think the question was what percentage of new sitcoms are gay and lesbian?
 
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#873
#873
utvolpj said:
what you asked earlier makes no sense

the concept many want embraced is that consenting adults should be allowed the same rights/access regardless of their sexuality. Not sure how else to explain it
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Any definition of marriage is going to limit access.

If the true goal is equality, the only answer is the complete elimination of benefits granted to married couples.
 
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#874
#874
txbo said:
Any definition of marriage is going to limit access.

If the true goal is equality, the only answer is the complete elimination of benefits granted to married couples.
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The entire progressive tax system needs to be scrapped. I don't care if marriage benefits go bye-bye with it. The government needs to get out of the "social engineering" business.
 
#875
#875
thebjd said:
The entire progressive tax system needs to be scrapped. I don't care if marriage benefits go bye-bye with it. The government needs to get out of the "social engineering" business.
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Absolutely. Social Security also.
 
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